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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4631869 - 09/07/05 08:37 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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How does nihilism destroy ones personal path?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


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Quote:
Nihilism could care less about the paths. All Nihilism does is destroy them; after that, it's up to you to transcend it and become your own human being. But Nihilism in and of itself destroys meaning and value; it doesn't affirm anything, because to affirm something would place value or priority in it, which, of course, Nihilism doesn't have. In a meaningless void, standing still is the same as moving forward, or walking backwards.
If you read the quote in its entirety, you'll see that the lack of meaning or value rids the paths of any priority or reason for existing. The paths themselves may still be there, but without any meaning, what point do they have? It doesn't even matter where you go, or if you go anywhere at all; without meaning, staying in your same spot without evolving has no more priority than running full-speed to our death.
Perhaps it's better stated as, "Nihilism destroys the significance of the paths," but to the human mind, are they not one in the same? What is existence without significance?
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4632043 - 09/07/05 09:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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A path is traveled from the inside out. In my heart there is a path. It's "meaning" is in how I feel while traveling it. It's going nowhere, but what does that matter? It finds it's beginning and end in Tao. So what if nothing matters? I still can choose how I will feel about that. I can choose joy or sorrow. I have to believe that my path matters for my own wellbeing. It's the only choice I have to make. And it doesn't matter.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psychomime
o_O



Registered: 05/16/05
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thanks icelander, thats the point I was making. You put it much better.
It seems Ravus, that you have trouble distinguishing between objective reality and subjective reality.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4633252 - 09/08/05 08:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Human emotional responses are always there, like the ashes from a leftover blaze. But the emotional responses themselves are not the philosophy, nor are they descriptive of the philosophy; they are simply byproducts.
I agree with you, but my point is that if one were to logically follow through with the implications of nihlism, they wouldn't associate such a perspective with their emotional "meaning". 
Quote:
With that said, most people will automatically link their emotional responses to the philosophy, despite the emotions being subjective. One man's depressing philosophy is another man's liberating enlightenment; it all simply depends on what kind of weight we want to carry around.
Exactly, and one's philosophy naturally plays a part in what kind of meaning we wish to apply. If one person understands nihlism conceptually but emotionally rejects such thought as being depressing, they have created for themselves a conflict of perceiving a state with no meaning and then applying emotional meaning to that state, which, naturally, doesn't make the state of existance have no implied meaning. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
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Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
psychomime said: thanks icelander, thats the point I was making. You put it much better.
It seems Ravus, that you have trouble distinguishing between objective reality and subjective reality.
What's the difference? Both are just concepts.
And if concepts are only substance without meaning, objective and subjective become just syllables. Nothing can be objective or subjective, because both require some sort of system to exist in. But if the system is indeed just a flat plain where all flows and battles until it evaporates, then the substance is in itself indistinguishable. The reason there's so much discussion over subjectivity and objectivity is because neither exist; to exist, one requires the other. If you say, "Everything is subjective," then subjectivity becomes objective, unless there is actually an unknown objective system, in which case you'd be having faith in something you only imagine exists.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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psycho, you are right, ravus lost/left the concepts of subjective and objective 
(And I don't want to start the mill again...but remember, if we hit a wall with our forehead and our nose starts bleeding, that wants to tell us something about objectivity)
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psychomime
o_O



Registered: 05/16/05
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Quote:
(And I don't want to start the mill again)
I hear that brother! Ravus, thank you for your well thought out arguments. it has been a pleasure.
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MJF
Human Being


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634036 - 09/08/05 01:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:
Quote:
psychomime said: thanks icelander, thats the point I was making. You put it much better.
It seems Ravus, that you have trouble distinguishing between objective reality and subjective reality.
What's the difference? Both are just concepts.
And if concepts are only substance without meaning, objective and subjective become just syllables. Nothing can be objective or subjective, because both require some sort of system to exist in. But if the system is indeed just a flat plain where all flows and battles until it evaporates, then the substance is in itself indistinguishable. The reason there's so much discussion over subjectivity and objectivity is because neither exist; to exist, one requires the other. If you say, "Everything is subjective," then subjectivity becomes objective, unless there is actually an unknown objective system, in which case you'd be having faith in something you only imagine exists.
is this a subjective or objective statement? they can be the same but still different.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
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Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4634065 - 09/08/05 02:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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If we pretend for a moment that objectivity exists, it would still be subjective. For us to perceive the difference, objectivity must first become subjective; we cannot perceive objectivity, think objectivity, or rationalize objectivity, because all human functions are subjective to the meaningless human itself, even the idea of the functions and objectivity. Objectivity is itself subjective, and co-exists as the same substance as subjectivity.
But if you say that everything is subjective and there is no objectivity, then all that would exist is subjectivity with nothing else out there, and then the line between subjectivity and objectivity becomes truely blurred beyond the simple arguments right now. Objectivity and subjectivity cannot co-exist together, because it would require either subjectivity to become part of objectivity or objectivity to become a part of subjectivity. If you are part of an objective universe, then you are a subjective interpretation of it (which we cannot confirm, and which I do not subscribe to, because an objective universe would require a source of objectivity in my opinion). But if the universe is actually part of your subjective mind, and the only boundaries are the boundaries of your mind, then what? This is far more verifiable than the other perspective; we can easily verify subjectivity, because we're living it right now.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634119 - 09/08/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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rav, it sounds weird, but with the two concepts of (budhist)meditation about 'samatha' and especially 'vipassana' you learn also very much abour objectivity. I can't follow your exlplanations well, perhaps because they are beyond the concept of meaning? Sorry, didn't want to disturb...just carry on
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MJF
Human Being


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re: Ravus what is the difference between a meaning and a reason?
things don't happen for any old reason...but specific ones. The car blew up because a terrorist put a bomb in it. That is the meaning of the bomb.
Meaninglessness can be a meaning. You can't possibly know the objective meaning (could be meaninglessness or maybe for the entertainment of some alien race...who knows).
Edited by MJF (09/08/05 03:01 PM)
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Delusion_of_Self
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634301 - 09/08/05 03:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: If we pretend for a moment that objectivity exists, it would still be subjective. For us to perceive the difference, objectivity must first become subjective; we cannot perceive objectivity, think objectivity, or rationalize objectivity, because all human functions are subjective to the meaningless human itself, even the idea of the functions and objectivity.
When a person is dreaming he can do basically anything but it's all a dream between the many, but it's just a dream. But when you wake up you can really see everything for what it is or wouldn't that be the case?
Objectivity is itself subjective, and co-exists as the same substance as subjectivity.
I think it is One objective that is dreaming one subjective that has multiplied.
But if you say that everything is subjective and there is no objectivity, then all that would exist is subjectivity with nothing else out there, and then the line between subjectivity and objectivity becomes truely blurred beyond the simple arguments right now. Objectivity and subjectivity cannot co-exist together, because it would require either subjectivity to become part of objectivity or objectivity to become a part of subjectivity. If you are part of an objective universe, then you are a subjective interpretation of it (which we cannot confirm, and which I do not subscribe to, because an objective universe would require a source of objectivity in my opinion). But if the universe is actually part of your subjective mind, and the only boundaries are the boundaries of your mind, then what? This is far more verifiable than the other perspective; we can easily verify subjectivity, because we're living it right now.
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Delusion_of_Self
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In duality we can shift to intellect (adam) or emotions (eve) but there exist a is a third option...none. And by that I mean no shift.
-------------------- "It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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MJF
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Joining the two together.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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The only way to truely believe in Nihilism is not to believe in it.
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Delusion_of_Self
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It's all the same...it's only one real way...God being Absolute can be approached in the way of unity, Love. We just have to get pass duality.
-------------------- "It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: The only way to truely believe in Nihilism is not to believe in it.
That's where Absurdism would come in, but I'm not ready to give up faith in knowledge yet. I wonder if sanity would remain if that was the case.
But lately I have been trying to incorporate more Absurdist periods, like a meditation of sorts. Absurdism cannot co-exist with philosophy however, even Nihilism itself; once you cross that line, all the bullshit is filtered out. Yet as I've seen it, life itself is a manure sculpture. Take away the bullshit, and you're taking away the medium life communicates in, as nothing should be significant.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Delusion_of_Self
Stranger

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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4634433 - 09/08/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said: Joining the two together.
I guess balance in oneness is the ever culmination of an absolute sincere seeker.
-------------------- "It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634474 - 09/08/05 03:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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The meaning of existence can never be directly percieved and no certian conclusions can be made about it. Everything, in essence, is unknowable. BUT! We can, through empiric investigations, figure out what MIGHT 'really' be happening. Data points us in certain directions. A has more support than B, so A has a higher probability of being true. We just have to make the leap of faith that Solipsism is false and our perceptions are based on something from actuality.
I would never say that I "believe in Nihilism", but I do think its most likely correct. Maybe I am a Probabilitist?
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