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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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intro to nihilism
#4011677 - 04/04/05 03:53 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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imagine for a second, a single consciousness, which is the only one in all of existence, for eternity. What would be its purpose? what would be the point of anything it did, or communicated? would there be any right or wrong? better or worse? moral or immoral? .... Now imagine that that consciousness represents all of existence (which would mean all of existence in all of existence .... like 1/1). So all of this existence, in all of this time, is really just one big car ride, with no destination or end phenomenon.... so I ask you again... What would be its purpose? what would be the point of anything it did, or communicated? would there be any right or wrong? better or worse? moral or immoral?
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Gomp
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purpose is a 'human' trait...
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Gomp]
#4011858 - 04/04/05 07:10 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- Ni?hil?ism
1. Philosophy. 1. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence. 2. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. -------------------- he he
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Gomp]
#4011867 - 04/04/05 07:17 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I heart huckabees seemed to touch nicely on it. also raising of the sparks goes there hide and seek find oneself
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Ego Death
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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Gomp]
#4012135 - 04/04/05 09:45 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gomp said: purpose is a 'human' trait...
Indeed!
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DoctorJ


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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I heart huckabees seemed to touch nicely on it. also raising of the sparks goes there hide and seek find oneself
fuckabees
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: DoctorJ]
#4012280 - 04/04/05 10:46 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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rhyming helps memory to function so does a blackboard.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel


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The idea that a single conciousness represents all of existance is not a facet of nihilism.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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TinTree
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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Phluck]
#4012452 - 04/04/05 11:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quite. One does NOT equal zero.
-------------------- "I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery." - Aldous Huxley
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: TinTree]
#4012493 - 04/04/05 12:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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the thin-ness of the sharp crease, that you may fold one into, can approach the infinitessimality as an approximation of zero; it is an effort to construe, but easy to understand the benfit of such mastery.
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Psychoactive1984
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism#Nihilism_in_ethics_and_morality
"Nihilism in philosophy Though the term nihilism was first popularized by Ivan Turgenev (see below), it was first introduced into philosophical discourse by Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi (1743-1819), who used the term to characterize rationalism, and in particular Immanuel Kant's "critical" philosophy in order to carry out a reductio ad absurdum according to which all rationalism (philosophy as criticism) reduces to nihilism, and thus it should be avoided and replaced with a return to some type of faith and revelation.
Friedrich Nietzsche's later work was obsessed with nihilism. Book One of The Will to Power, which consists of an arrangement of selections from Nietzsche's notebooks from 1883 to 1888, is entitled "European Nihilism," which he calls "the problem of the nineteenth century." Nietzsche characterized nihilism as emptying the world and especially human existence of meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value.
Though derided by some as nihilistic, postmodernism can be contrasted with the above formulation of nihilism in that nihilism tends toward defeatism, while postmodern philosophers tend to find strength and reason for celebration in the varied and unique human relationships it explores. Nihilism can also readily be compared to skepticism as both reject claims to knowledge and truth, though skepticism does not necessarily come to any conclusions about the reality of moral concepts nor does it deal so intimately with questions about the meaning of an existence without knowable truth."
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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TinTree
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: redgreenvines]
#4012769 - 04/04/05 01:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Aye, an approximation of zero, that is useful for some purposes, no doubt. But still, strictly speaking, not quite zero.  This is why I got angry as an adolescent and chucked a brick through mathematics' window... I refused to accept that .9999 repeating is = to 1.
-------------------- "I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery." - Aldous Huxley
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Psychoactive1984
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: TinTree]
#4012859 - 04/04/05 01:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/04/05 01:47 PM)
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the_phoenix
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So it's everything, 1/1, but it's infinite so it can always expand! It will still be 1/1 because as more is discovered it becomes part of the whole, part of the 1.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist

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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: the_phoenix]
#4013123 - 04/04/05 03:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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The only thing infinite is human ignorance and the lack of understanding; beyond that their may be a large scale of anything, which places it in the seemingly infinite multitude of things. But it isn't infinite. Concepts and mathematics can be infinite... only because we define limitations on them which allow them to be such. (sequences and series as an example)
Go to a beach, count all the grains of sand, it may seem infinite... but alas the number is growing by the day, but in an instant of time, their is a finite number associated with the amount.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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you can try to divide by zero
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SneezingPenis
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: redgreenvines]
#4013368 - 04/04/05 04:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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seems we are getting hung up on the mathematics here....
First... i gave the analogy of one single lone consciousness in all of existence to relate a viewpoint of the scope of everything. Maybe a better analogy would be a Football league, which had only one team.. who would they play, what would be the point of even going on the field, who would come to watch that? I dont think there is any defeatism in nihilism at all. In fact it is quite the contrary. If there is no absolute purpose or goal for existence as a whole, then why not just experience and live everything to its fullest and appreciate that there is no universal expectations of us to liev up to, only to just be. From this you can either choose to play into the fake constructed ideology of existence, or realize it is just a never ending game with no villain, protagonist, or end and go about your own existence just playing the game.
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redgreenvines
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4013845 - 04/04/05 06:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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interesting that you pose mathematics as the blockage to effective discussion of nihilism, and then declare that there is no defeatism, yet "what would be the point of even going on the field".
the kabbalists seemed to have a mathematic or numerological way of resetting every glum moment into a re-connection with the infinite.
I am not certain that there is any difference between the infinite and absolute nothing, but the attitude is all important; and it seems that mathematics provides a mechanism to refocus that lens.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4013864 - 04/04/05 06:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nihilism is believing in nothing. Your post has no relation to it.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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SneezingPenis
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4014110 - 04/04/05 07:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Nihilism is believing in nothing. Your post has no relation to it.
thanks for that completely uninformed viewpoint.... do you get all of your religious knowledge from The big lebowski?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4014124 - 04/04/05 07:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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and basically, i just made the 1/1 statement trying to show everything in everything, like how one apple is contained in the dimensions of one apple. Didnt really want to get on the neverending infinity/zero loop.
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Ravus
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Nihilism states that nothing can be known absolutely, nothing has any true purpose and human morals, ethics and even existence is just an illusion. Nihilism is dynamite to blow away old beliefs.
The problem with your post is that is violates one of the basic tenets of Nihilism, that there is one unified consciousness. You have never been outside of your own perception, so how do you know if there is a consciousness? That cannot be known, and is just a religious leap of faith. Hell, you've never been out of your own perception, so how do you know if your own perception even exists? We can make assumptions, we can say that we are just a tiny fraction of one unified consciousness with no purpose, but none of it can be known. This is just guessing and wishing, humans illusions that should be cleared away along with all the old rubble in the stream of Nihilistic thought.
Gorgias was perhaps one of the most ancient Nihilists, and summarized its philosophy best when he said, "Nothing exists; even if something could exist it, it could not be known; even if it could be known, knowledge about it could not be communicated." Life is pointless, just one grand illusion of subjective perception that we can never truely verify, and saying there is consciousness at all outside of our own is a grave assumption that Nihilism could not claim except as a chaotic joke.
Of course, along with being one of the most frustrating philosophies, it is also, to me, the most liberating and truthful I have ever come across. Quite a contradiction, that Nihilism could contain any truth, eh? Nihilism itself will cancel out after its work is done, and we are left in the sea of chaos that we were born into before we developed our lies to help us think we knew anything.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4014523 - 04/04/05 08:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I pretty much agree with everything you stated ravus.... I only made the analogy of a single consciousness to get an idea across. It is how I kind of explain it to people, or better how I came about to cognite on the meaning of nihilism. "Life is pointless, just one grand illusion of subjective perception that we can never truely verify" ---- that is a perfect summation of the end product of nihilism IMO, atleast this is what i have gotten from it.... It isnt just "a belief in nothing" as some people put it... more like "believing in THE NOTHING" (not the same from the never ending story.... but unintentionally as i typed that i just got that movie a whole hell of a lot more..)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4015523 - 04/05/05 12:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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You better go read the dictionary before criticising me.
"Philosophy. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated"
The viewpoint you expressed was from a religious viewpoint, which is the antithesis of nihilism. Your whole exercise is pointless in the light of the definition of the word. Now, can you make your case or are you just good for insults?
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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SneezingPenis
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4016002 - 04/05/05 05:37 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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That is ridiculous. Yous said Nihilism is the belief in nothing.... that is all. I dont see at any point where i really entangled religious views into nihilism, i was simply making an analogy which i thought would help people start to understand for themselves where i was coming from on this. I never said there is one single consciousness... i said IMAGINE one single consciousness, just like i said IMAGINE something like the NFL with only one team.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4016859 - 04/05/05 11:23 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nihilism is the belief in "nothing" from a religious philosophic view. I suggest, once again, checking your terms.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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redgreenvines
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4016922 - 04/05/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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is this like individual buddhists arguing about their egos?
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: redgreenvines]
#4016963 - 04/05/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am not a Buddhist or a Nihilist...and I HAVE an ego thank you. I just found his point to be nonexistant so I said so.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: intro to "nihilism as origami" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4017017 - 04/05/05 12:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Weather it falls in line with nihilism or not, I can see your message here psilo without getting hung up on labels.
I use the one team idea myself when the illusion of duality rears its ugly head. Take a visual of a football team getting their ass kicked by phantoms that look real, and feel real, but are only manifestations of the teams self defeating beliefs. It's funny when you apply that image to life's "apparent" oppositions.
If all you are trying to do is express the nothingness of oppositions to the One your message is a good one and can help people over come fears of oppositional forces if they have them.
If one pops up, change the scene around in your head and see it all as members of the same team with the same goal. The energy dynamics snap into a different place. It's empowering stuff. If no one wants to get your message being caught up on labels or simply can't due to a lack of imagination abilities then oh well.
Just delete the word nihilism from all of your posts and replace it with the word figgle. Then the focus can be returned to exploring your message.
That suggestion just made me think of something.
My daughter has been getting frustrated with minor art work screw ups lately and in a huff wants to throw what she has already done in the trash. I have been teaching her about creative control. When she gets in a huff and wants to trash her really good art work because of a little screw up, I show her how she let the screw up take control over her and the piece. I have been teaching her how to creatively overcome the the minor screw up and how to take her power back to save the piece.
She beams being back in the realization of her creative power to overcome!
I'm not saying you want to trash it or are getting huffy, but some seem to be over a minor word not fitting right within the context of a sweet piece of work. Creative License does require an imagination. I always wonder why people poo poo on the power of our imaginations to problem solve for us.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/05/05 12:50 PM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4017450 - 04/05/05 01:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Nihilism states that nothing can be known absolutely, nothing has any true purpose and human morals, ethics and even existence is just an illusion. Nihilism is dynamite to blow away old beliefs.
Nihilism itself is not dynamite to blow away old beliefs, nihilism can be used as dynamite to blow away beliefs. Or something. 
Quote:
Of course, along with being one of the most frustrating philosophies, it is also, to me, the most liberating and truthful I have ever come across. Quite a contradiction, that Nihilism could contain any truth, eh? Nihilism itself will cancel out after its work is done, and we are left in the sea of chaos that we were born into before we developed our lies to help us think we knew anything.
I don't understand how nihilism itself would contain any truth, but rather something outside of nihilistic thought would contain truth of a conceptual nihilism that draws a boundary that said conceptual nihilism cannot annihiliate. True nihilism would never leave anything left in anything. Nullification! Reduction to non-existance! 
Also, I'd like to note that I myself didn't perceive psilocyberin as stating that the idea of a unified consciousness was an idea of nihilism. He used it as an example to illustrate what would be subsequently annihilated (by nilhilsm, rightfully) if that example was true (meaning, beliefs, etc. etc. etc.). Or something. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SneezingPenis
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Main Entry: ni?hil?ism Pronunciation: 'nI-(h)&-"li-z&m, 'nE- Function: noun Etymology: German Nihilismus, from Latin nihil nothing -- more at NIL 1 a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths 2 a (1) : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility
that was websters definition....
and maybe Wikipedias definition will help us see or diverging opinions on this matter... Nihilism (NIGH-uh-liz-'m), literally, means belief in nothing. As a philosophical position, nihilism is the view that the world, and especially human existence, is without meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. It is more often a charge levelled against a particular idea than a position to which someone is overtly subscribed. Movements such as Dada, Deconstructionism and Punk have been described by various observers as "nihilist". Nihilism is also a characteristic that has been ascribed to time periods: for example, Baudrillard has called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch, and some Christian theologians and figures of authority assert that modernity and postmodernity represents the rejection of God, and therefore are nihilist.
sure, the word Nihilist, literally means a belief in nothing, but the philosophy behind it is so much more than just that, nor is that even the encompassing point or thesis of nihilism....
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the_phoenix
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By infinite I meant non-local, timeless, and undefined.
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Lux
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Is meaning not inherently subjective? If so an objective meaning does not seem possible, so then a fundamental law(one which radiates throughout) of reality would have to be that there is no meaning in mere existence. Instead meaning is projected onto things by conscious beings.
Recognizing this, we are given an unlimited potential of meaning to apply to reality. The question must then become not what is the meaning of so and so, but what is your meaning? To some it may seem rather dissapointing to be robbed of this search(the meaning of it all). Others however will recognize that they were simply searching in the wrong place.
If the question is what is your meaning, then it's source must be explored. It seems rather obvious that the source of this projected meaning is the individual. Aha! So then, it is not outside ourselves that we must search for meaning in reality, existence, etc., but within ourselves!
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Ped
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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Lux]
#4020208 - 04/06/05 02:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nihilism is an extreme philosophy that was obsolete the moment it's core principles were first expressed. That is it's nature. It is precisely because things lack inherent attributes that they can exist as part of a continuum. The opposite extreme, existentialism, suggests an impossible universe where objects are independent and therefore in fundamental disharmony with eachother. The unity of these two philosophies understands that it's because things are empty that they exist at all, and it's because of conciousness that meaning is ascribed to people, things, and events.
The only use of nihilism is to contrast our habituated perceptual assumptions of existentialism so that we might discover how things actually are.
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Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: intro to nihilism [Re: Ped]
#4020905 - 04/06/05 09:22 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: Nihilism is an extreme philosophy that was obsolete the moment it's core principles were first expressed. That is it's nature. It is precisely because things lack inherent attributes that they can exist as part of a continuum. The opposite extreme, existentialism, suggests an impossible universe where objects are independent and therefore in fundamental disharmony with eachother. The unity of these two philosophies understands that it's because things are empty that they exist at all, and it's because of conciousness that meaning is ascribed to people, things, and events.
The only use of nihilism is to contrast our habituated perceptual assumptions of existentialism so that we might discover how things actually are.
If anyone is interested in that, definetly rent the movie "I heart Huckabees" It's what it's based on and it's funny!
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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