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OfflineSoulTech
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Nihilistic Taboo
    #3227413 - 10/07/04 02:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think that suggesting that nothing matters and everything is ultimately without real substance is taboo in many american and global cultures? If you do agree with that statement then why do you suppose that is?

I think its because people are socially engineered to accept a certain ethos and this flies in the face of that belief structure, causing tremendous insecurities hoplessness and chaos. Many people would not be able to continue to function in modern life with a belief that nothing matters.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: SoulTech]
    #3227436 - 10/07/04 02:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

because nihilism is a counterproductive belief, that leads to only bad things.

It is an interesting belief though and on one level it is true. Nothing has inherent value. It is up to us to decide what is valuable to us and why.

If you say everything is pointless and terrible, you make that real for yourself.

Alternatively you can say everything is wonderfull and meaningfull that is also made real for yourself.

Neither idea is more inherently true than the other, but it isnt hard to see which one is more beneficial and positive to the holder.


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OfflineSoulTech
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3227529 - 10/07/04 02:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yes i know what you are saying but why is there an association of nihilism with, like you said, terrible? In some aspects I find nihilism to be very liberating and I also find that some concepts mesh with eastern religions.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: SoulTech]
    #3227549 - 10/07/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

nihilism is liberating only if you take it beyond that first step. The first step is realizing that everything is folly, everything is at its core illusory, meaningless. If you dont go beyond this you can end up in suicidal depression, totally amotivated and miserable.

The next step is controlled folly, realizing that because everything is meaningless, you need not worry about anything of fear anything, and you can decide for yourself what you will invest your interest in. I realize that , at its core, judo, graffiti art, hackey sack, friends, love etc are meaningless illusory things, and yet that doesnt in anyway reduce my enjoyment of them.

So yes nihilism can be liberating when fully developed. It prevents you from taking things to seriously, even from fearing death. But if not fully developed it can suck the joy out of life.


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3228448 - 10/07/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The life that most people lead is, lacking any real foundation, so shaky and delicate that anything upsetting its rigid structure, especially something, like nihilism, pointing out its lack of foundation, is met with defensive hostility and prejudice.


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Nothing is sacred!
Life is tough--thick-skinned--impenetrable--so that it can function--work--create--dance--live!


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OfflineSoulTech
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3228786 - 10/07/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yes I agree. It all has to do with a sense of security.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: SoulTech]
    #3229211 - 10/07/04 07:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

that too. Same reason why atheism or darwinism are often met with fear and resentment. They attack the very foundation of many peoples lives.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: SoulTech]
    #3229860 - 10/07/04 09:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The capitalism and materialism of Western society are based on the foundation that the objects and luxuries we own or desire are essential and define who we are, and that is why we must work a large chunk of our lives away to get flimsy pieces of paper. Nihilistic themes have their shadows in the despair and problems of this society that other societies do not have, but we try to ignore it

Nihilism is an essential fire to clear the forest oftentimes in the way we are raised in Western society, but it is not an end. Using Nihilism itself as an end is just a means of permanent destruction and despair, but when used to cleanse the presupposed thoughts and prejudices of the mind then it is liberating and freeing, and will allow the growth of new realities in the ashes of the weeds



"Of the three metamorphoses of the spirit I tell you: how the spirit becomes a camel; and the camel, a lion; and the lion, finally, a child.
There is much that is difficult for the spirit, the strong, reverent spirit that would bear much: but the difficult and the most difficult are what its strength demands.
What is difficult? asks the spirit that would bear much, and kneels down like a camel wanting to be well loaded. What is most difficult, O heroes, asks the spirit that would bear much, that I may take it upon myself and exult in my strength? Is it not humbling oneself to wound one's haughtiness? Letting one's folly shine to mock one's wisdom?...
Or is it this: stepping into filthy waters when they are the waters of truth, and not repulsing cold frogs and hot toads?
Or is it this: loving those that despise us and offering a hand to the ghost that would frighten us?
All these most difficult things the spirit that would bear much takes upon itself: like the camel that, burdened, speeds into the desert, thus the spirit speeds into its desert.
In the loneliest desert, however, the second metamorphosis occurs: here the spirit becomes a lion who would conquer his freedom and be master in his own desert. Here he seeks out his last master: he wants to fight him and his last god; for ultimate victory he wants to fight with the great dragon.
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." "Thou shalt" lies in his way, sparkling like gold, an animal covered with scales; and on every scale shines a golden "thou shalt."
Values, thousands of years old, shine on these scales; and thus speaks the mightiest of all dragons: "All value has long been created, and I am all created value. Verily, there shall be no more 'I will.'" Thus speaks the dragon.
My brothers, why is there a need in the spirit for the lion? Why is not the beast of burden, which renounces and is reverent, enough?
To create new values -- that even the lion cannot do; but the creation of freedom for oneself and a sacred "No" even to duty -- for that, my brothers, the lion is needed. To assume the right to new values -- that is the most terrifying assumption for a reverent spirit that would bear much. Verily, to him it is preying, and a matter for a beast of prey. He once loved "thou shalt" as most sacred: now he must find illusion and caprice even in the most sacred, that freedom from his love may become his prey: the lion is needed for such prey.
But say, my brothers, what can the child do that even the lion could not do? Why must the preying lion still become a child? The child is innocence and forgetting, a new beginning, a game, a self-propelled wheel, a first movement, a sacred "Yes." For the game of creation, my brothers, a sacred "Yes" is needed: the spirit now wills his own will, and he who had been lost to the world now conquers the world."
-Nietzsche


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: SoulTech]
    #3230079 - 10/07/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Very interesting subject this, this is my view I posted in another thread, I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts, but here it is anyway

'I love existing, i live for the moment while trying to get to grips with sorting out my future.

I dont have any beliefs about religion, mushrooms are slowly changing that, but unless i get firm evidence that points to there being someting after death I still believe life is pointless. This is a lil hard for me to explain but bear with it for my opinion...

In the end we all die right? and surely humans will all die out eventually too. Even if we manage to occupy other earth like planets there has to be a limit... So if there comes a time when theres none of us left, there be a time when theres nothing to show for it either, so why bother now? It probably has something to do with evolution, consider a mouse... it doesnt know much about anything other than how to survive in its enviroment, there are generally no other factors to its survival other than its own food, and avoiding being food for other animals... we're evolved from the same source as the mouse is... We try to survive, but theres one big diference. A higher state of awareness allows us to consider mroe about our future, but its still not as powerfull as the natural drive to survive. Life on earth was a pure fluke anyway right? If we all knew the entire universe would collapse tomorow most of us would make the most out of our last hours, pointless but no diferent from eating a bar of chocolate or smokin, a complete waste of time but enjoyable for a short time. Its no diferent from the pointlessness of living, but if people struggle to give up smoking and chocolate how could we ever come to terms with the ultimate futility of life. Thats just my opinion. i dont let it bother me, as thers nothing i can do about it.
I still smoke... '

It is taboo but so are most revolutionary ideas are they not? This one inparticular most people find almost insulting as they definetly do not like the idea that they're whole life, what they've worked for, what they've been led to believe... all becomes meaningless eventually

as i said in my pasted post I dont let it bother me, I try to enjoy life. Having said that some people might think I'm a waster, but I've done so much in my short life already I cant help but look for someting better than a 9 to 5 job, and working 5 days a week 9 to 5 just doesnt see worth it unless I could really enjoy my work. I'm still looking for an opportunity to make some money out of my art... sorry gone a bit ot there haha

I'm a bit tired so i hope all that made sense and stuff


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Offlineiamgod
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3230414 - 10/07/04 10:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe we're natures experiment to see if it's worth it being aware of oneself unlike a mouse.

My statement has nothing to do with the topic, sorry folks.


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If what you seek is truth then drugs can not offer truth. Drugs can offer the truth of drugs.......Altered states. Truth is not an altered state of mind. ~ Big Headed Nice Guy Who Loves You And Your Dog

http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/Flash/Think_It_Over.swf


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OfflineStinky
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: SoulTech]
    #3231703 - 10/08/04 03:30 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think the majority of people aren't ready for that kind of responsability in their lives. Having "god's plan" to fall back on is comforting to a hell of a lot of people. For those who don't find it particuarly comforting (or just plain don't believe), Nihilism is a great option.

It also really bugs the hell out of me when people associate nihilism with only negative things. Sometimes when a punk or heavy metal band has very hopeless lyrics, they are described as being nihlistic. Unfortunately, this paints such a false representation of nihilism that most people don't even bother to give it a second thought. Nihilism is about not buying into arbitrary moral systems that other people think up, but deciding for yourself what is right. Neitzsche's ideas were all about empowering people, not making them hopeless deviants.


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: Stinky]
    #3232359 - 10/08/04 11:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yea man but ya know the phrase ignorance is bliss? Some people would rather just pretend there is meaning to it all than know for sure they are right. Beliefs do help people through there lives more often than not, sometimes I wish I had something to have faith in so that I could put more effort into life... but... I dunno. I suppose I'd rather know the truth. Like I always want to know how a magician does his tricks... I feel happier when I know how its done, not knowing is only a frustration for me.


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OfflineSoulTech
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: Ravus]
    #3232516 - 10/08/04 12:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It always takes me more than one read to digest Nietzsche, but its always a pleasure.

There is one thing about Nihilism that suggests to me that it can't be a complete solution, and that is the concept of getting something from nothing. Nihilism sort of ignores the fact that logically reality had to originate at a source. Now I'm not suggesting god or whatever you want to call it but this indicates to me at _SOME_ level, some sort of meaning was thrown into the mix.


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: SoulTech]
    #3232602 - 10/08/04 12:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thats the biggest head fuck problem of all!

How could all this stuff just be here? wot the hell could of started all the energy that created everything, where did the energy come from?! And If it was some kind of god thAt started it all... WHERE THE FUCK DID THEY COME FROM?!


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OfflineSoulTech
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3232610 - 10/08/04 12:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Biologically we are just glorified apes with a freakishly complex cerebral cortex. We have thoroughly demonstrated we are not above simple animal instincts (see war, oppression, etc). What really seperates us from other animals is we have the ability to reason, but it seems (as a whole) we would rather rely on our primitive instincts (our instincts are glorified to some extent by our complex brains).

What I'm getting at is that it seems people are content fulfilling the survival instinct and treading the proverbial water until they die. Like dangling a carrot in front of their face, it stings when the carrot is discarded.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3232938 - 10/08/04 01:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If you say everything is pointless and terrible, you make that real for yourself.

Alternatively you can say everything is wonderfull and meaningfull that is also made real for yourself.




But see -- here is your error. You're assigning a value to meaningfulness and pointlessness.

Things can me utterly pointless yet wonderful. Or they can have meaning yet be terrible.

Best to just smile softly at everything.
Have you ever watched an ant hill? Utterly pointless activity. Do you sit there scowling at the ants, or quietly grinning at their industry?


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3232966 - 10/08/04 02:05 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If its in my garden I pour flammable liquid over it and ignite


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Nihilistic Taboo [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3232970 - 10/08/04 02:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

kidding...

hehe


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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