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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
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Why I am not a Christian
    #3976812 - 03/27/05 07:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

Quote:

Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a better place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.




--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Offline3eyeswise
captain
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 198
Loc: lake county Florida
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: cb9fl]
    #3976862 - 03/27/05 07:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yes science can help with many of these things but there are many things it can not faith in God is not a bad thing if people keep an open mind to what others have to say ive felt God through the use of mushrooms,and even sober in prayer and I know its real just way more then any religion thinks, its the center of science the core of everything,but i know what you mean about fear God the light the energy whatever you call it does not wish fear on anyone that is peoples wrong thought towards something that should help us,people are to blame not religion. www.near-death.com


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By questioning death I have found the answer to life.


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Invisiblemoog
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: cb9fl]
    #3976888 - 03/27/05 07:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

While a lot of Christians follow their religion in fear, many of them don't. Many of them believe that Christian dogma is actually the truth about reality. I don't think science in itself is the answer, because modern science still doesn't have the answers to many questions. However, religious dogma can become simple-minded fiction with the use of logic and critical analysis. What Christians fear is not necessarily death and the unknown, but that what they have believed for years is a lie. They are afraid of being wrong.


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: moog]
    #3976900 - 03/27/05 07:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

because modern science still doesn't have the answers to many questions.

Yet.

They are afraid of being wrong.

Exactly and I believe what Russell is pointing out is that in following any religion a person is subscribing to faith. And by definition faith is something that "does not rest on logical proof or material evidence". Thus religion serves only as an impediment to an advance in knowledge.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: 3eyeswise]
    #3976937 - 03/27/05 07:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Science is the 'greatest' religion of them all. :wink:


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: cb9fl]
    #3976950 - 03/27/05 07:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
because modern science still doesn't have the answers to many questions.

Yet.

They are afraid of being wrong.

Exactly and I believe what Russell is pointing out is that in following any religion a person is subscribing to faith. And by definition faith is something that "does not rest on logical proof or material evidence". Thus religion serves only as an impediment to an advance in knowledge.




There has been some kind of wierd idea floating around in the entire 20th century or longer that in case religious dogmas are true, they are out of reach of science, or vice versa, if science explains something in the future, that it will push out religion.
If an angel can fly on earth's sky it must have some kind of propulsion, if Jesus did heal, he did it on some biological basis, with ways unknown to todays science. If we live forever, we exist in some form which is measurable. If there is such a place as afterlife, science will have instruments to contact the dead.
Nothing can escape science because everything must have some medium in which it works. Everything that exists can be measured in some way.

People like to say: "some things can not be explained"
what the heck does that mean anyway? It is a dead paradoxal sentance with no meaning.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisibletrick

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 1,059
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3976954 - 03/27/05 07:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

music is my religion.


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3976980 - 03/27/05 07:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I agree. I guess what my point was, was that many people "religiously" believe certain ideas even though they have no factual basis, thus they are relinquished to faith. I may have an inclination towards a certain belief but if science cannot back it then I will not represent it as fact. In my experience many Christians represent certain ideas as fact and simply say science can't prove it yet or even worse science will never be able to prove it. In reality if it has no scientific backing it is simply an idea not a fact and thus deserves no more credence than the idea that this universe is simply a dream.

Mostly I wanted to present Bertrand Russell and his ideas.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineTacobot
oppo
Registered: 03/27/05
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Loc: GA
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: trick]
    #3976997 - 03/27/05 08:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Religeon, to me, seems like a way for people to feel happy, and a way for people to explain and put an end to the questions of life. Like, have faith and you will overcome any obstacle, stuff like that.

The reason i'm not religeous is because i've seen through the BS and realized that people are WAY WAY too fanatical about religeon, trying to convert everyone to believe their ways. They say they aren't forcing their religeon but come on, if you believe that then you're probably one of them. The point when i completely dropped all faith in the bible and all that stuff is when i read greek mythology and found that every story is the exact same story as from the bible (pandora's box/garden of eden, hercules/jesus, creation, creation of heaven, hell, and earth, etc). I've been much happier with my life after denouncing my religeon, so why should i turn back?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: cb9fl]
    #3977614 - 03/27/05 10:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

ah, but here lies the problem:
People's psyche has a basic need for religion. Religion is not dogma- religion IS life. The mistake of treating religion as a clearly defined, dogmatic organized religion is ulimately a Western idealogical flaw.


science's progress is sure but extremely slow. Religion's progress is infinitely fast, but unsure. Science will not work with things that cannot be reproducibly observed. Qualititative things are entirely out of reach of science, but, and here is the theoretical flaw, Quantitative analysis lies ultimately on relativity.

In short, the masses will always be stupid, unless we somehow have a perfect economy, perfect society, etc etc etc. ( and perfect only insofar as to support having the masses as all being intelligent. The ridiculousness of this is indescribable with words ). Organized religion is ultimately what keeps stupid people living peacefully. I am not a follower of an organized religion, but I praise it. It keeps the ignorant masses off of my back in terms of civil conduct. Yes, sometimes this backfires and people get hurt because of them. But the organized religion condemns this, which helps keep it at a low.

Sometimes, people who spend all of their time on intellectual concerns fall out of touch with reality. They make ideal statements which have no correlation with anything possibly confirmable. The above is one such statement.


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: vampirism]
    #3977736 - 03/27/05 10:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i don't think most people look to religon out of fear, but for comfort and security, i think it was c.s. eliot who once wrote about how everyone has a God, there is a place in everyone's soul, mind heart, being or whatever you wanna call yourself that longs for peace and understanding of life, some people fill that hole in them with sex, drugs and love of power and control and everything else, and they become your God, but those things turn on you and fuck you over in the end, but if you fill that whole inside with religion, or faith, albeit a belief in God, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, and or whatever else, they never turn on you and fuck you over like all material things will, by filling that hole with "faith", and putting there teaching's in to practice, you become fulfilled, at peace, all questions answered and understood,,,


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineBoneMan
Shrimpin ain't easy
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Registered: 02/09/05
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: JCoke]
    #3977945 - 03/27/05 11:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

you should all read the tao of physics

there are a lot of significant parallels between eastern philosophy and modern science, particularly quantum physics.

buddhism is appealing to me because it requires no "faith".
in fact, it is encouraged that you experience something for yourself before you accept it or "believe" in it.

i agree with morrowind, religion in the west is separate from every day life. while in eastern religions such as buddhism, it is a way of living and thinking. if you dont "live" your religion i dont see any point in assosiating yourself with one.

people seem to think that going to church every sunday is a ticket to heaven, while most of them forget everything they just sat through as soon as they walk out those church doors. thats what i call a waste of time, and thats why i dont go to church (except christmas and easter, which is strictly a family thing).

p.s. JCoke, good point. and not to be an english teacher but you used the word 'albeit' a little out of context. its meaning is more like "although" or "even though".
i know, im a prick for pointing that out, but people who use smart words in the wrong context come off as a lot dumber than they actually are.


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OfflineCyruxMafia
Sufi Master

Registered: 03/26/05
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: BoneMan]
    #3978427 - 03/28/05 01:27 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"Fear"? that's hardly a reasonable assumption, to say that religion is about fear is to ignore the obvious; which is that religion is a a source of enlightenment, from a state of ignorance to a state of peace. In life there are consequences for every action. Life is about learning to chose good consequences over negative consequences. The being of God is relevant so much as a determining factor between Good and Bad consequences.


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Love Mercy, Act Justly and Walk Humbly - Micah 6:8

"Although they plan, Allah also plans. And Allah is the Best of Planners." [Holy Qur'an 8:30]

"Allah says: O son of Adam devote yourself to worshipping Me, and I will fill your bosom with richness and remove your poverty. And if you do not do this, then I will fill your bosom with occupation and distraction and I will not remove your poverty."


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: CyruxMafia]
    #3978583 - 03/28/05 01:48 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The being of God is relevant so much as a determining factor between Good and Bad consequences.

It appears that religion has no such affect as you would like to believe.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineefrog
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: Swami]
    #3978700 - 03/28/05 02:07 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Religion, to me, is just like *this* thread.

A constant attempt to try and understand and/or explain something we do not understand.

Namely, ourselves and our path through life.

I think there are other reasons too, many and wide-ranging, but I think that trying to explain the mystery of life and of finding purpose in life is a common thread throughout them all.

I think that some people prefer to be told what to do and how to think because they are afraid to make a mistake etc.

I think that "heaven and hell" were devised to create some kind of law and order. "Not only will we kill ya, we'll get your ass AFTER you're dead, too!!"

This is not to say that I think any religion is hooey, I don't. How can I think something that people use to try and be better people (at least in their own minds) is hooey?

I am just not that judgemental.

Just because their way to enlightenment is different than mine, or ddisagrees with me, doesn't make it a bad thing. It just makes it a bad thing *for me*

I liken it to farming: Catholocism (for example) is peas. I cannot grow peas worth a damn. Wicca is corn and I am one hell of a corn farmer.

It's just my humble opinion of course, but it's what I think every time I see a thread like this and as you know, they are common as sand on a beach.

:smile:
~Kimberly


--------------------
This is a whole new path. You cannot use your old map on this new path and if you try you'll only end up lost in the woods. Get a new map.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: CyruxMafia]
    #3979537 - 03/28/05 10:52 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CyruxMafia said:
"Fear"? that's hardly a reasonable assumption, to say that religion is about fear is to ignore the obvious; which is that religion is a a source of enlightenment, from a state of ignorance to a state of peace.




Fear is a very reasonable assumption. Huge numbers of religious folk are ruled by fear. I grew up Fundamentalist Baptist, my neighbors were all Catholic. Fear of Hell, Fear of sex. Man it's all there in spades. In comparison the amount of folk that use religion for enlightenment is tiny. I say this from experience.

Your assumption is lopsided and unreasonable. If you can't see the fear based addiction to religion, then you don't want to look.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: efrog]
    #3979560 - 03/28/05 11:02 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

How can I think something that people use to try and be better people (at least in their own minds) is hooey?

I think it hooey, if with millions of practioners, there are no discernable behaviorial differences (divorce rate, suicide rate, depression, alcoholism, smoking, obesity; etc.) from non-practioners.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
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Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: Swami]
    #3979588 - 03/28/05 11:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
How can I think something that people use to try and be better people (at least in their own minds) is hooey?

I think it hooey, if with millions of practioners, there are no discernable behaviorial differences (divorce rate, suicide rate, depression, alcoholism, smoking, obesity; etc.) from non-practioners.






A christian is not anyone that goes to church and says he is, there is a very small number of real christians, so you would have to find those to get any statistics on how this religion affects people.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3979613 - 03/28/05 11:24 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Most all of those church-goers will subjectively define themselves as "real" Christians, but now we should look to you to define the "real"ones?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Why I am not a Christian [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3979626 - 03/28/05 11:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

God is omnipotent which means to a true Christian, everywhere should be their church. The actual physical structure of a church is just a place for reflection and a place to remind oneself of the principles of Christianity by listening to sermons and such......... :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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