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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
    #6466521 - 01/16/07 04:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I would say that compassion is the foundation of spirituality, but mysticism is the building which rests upon it.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
    #6466548 - 01/16/07 04:19 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

Gomp said:
To=too = And .....




Lay off the drugs gomp. :wink:




Ditto...

:wink:


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Disclaimer!?

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
    #6471167 - 01/17/07 08:21 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Your roommate is a very 'young' Christian, even if he is middle-aged. He belongs to a type of Christianity that is on a par with Appalacian snake-handlers (based on an obscure passage in Mark 16:17-18) as far as I am concerned. Love, viz a viz, 'agape' - the form of love expressed in the NT is a dispassionate Compassion, different from 'eros,' and 'philias.' Agape is phenomenologically identical to Compassion as expressed in Buddhism, just as 'metta,' 'loving kindness' in Buddhism expresses a more affective flavor of the seemingly Stoic agape.

These psychological descriptions are subtle yet profound because God is identified in the NT as "love" and it is imperative to understand love as a state of being, not as a biochemical-psychological human emotion. In other words, love in Christianity, and its agapic expression is central to Christian metaphysics just as the nature of the Clear Light (Sunya, Sunyata, the Void) is in Buddhism.

Glossolalia, speaking in tongues, is a common secular subconscious expression and not (or, at least, no longer) any indication of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in a language that one has not learned, meanwhile, is considered proof of demonic possession to such Christians.

Agape/Compassion is the sine qua non of spiritual Illumination/Enlightenment in Christianity and Buddhism respectively, IMO.

Incidentally, 'karma' was never seen in classic Hinduism as apart from Brahman. Karma is a spiritual law which does not preclude the existence of God. Buddha would not answer questions about Brahman because it is presumptuous in any faith to claim one knows Deity. Buddha worked exclusively with one's psychology, to the alleviation of suffering. Nowhere does he deny the existence of God. He simply taught not to be reliant upon Divine graces and to work out the human pole of the [Jungian] "ego-Self axis."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflinePsyliChick
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6471950 - 01/18/07 12:02 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

In my ever so humble opinion... It seems like mystical abilities are fantasies. Special powers. We become God's SuperHeroes through gaining these "mystical abilities". A great marketing tool for people who are desperate for someone else to give them direction.
Loving Kindness and Compassion are feelings that enlightened people express through action. Selfless acts of kindness. We all have the innate urge to be filled with the joy of living as good a life as we can! The more we practice being selfless, the more natural it becomes. This feeling of selflessness is, in my opinion, the closest thing to spirituality that exists. Knowing that my own actions, as I chose them, are what brings me pain/pleasure is the height of self-awareness.
This is why Buddhism MAY work for me yet. For the first time in my life, I feel as though the only "ideal" I have to become is the person who I strive to be. I am looking forward to being in charge of my own spirituality for a change. My expectations are my guide.


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All posts are a works of fiction meant to entertain the masses. In no way do they imply that I break any laws, ordinances, or statutes.

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6472328 - 01/18/07 02:12 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Your roommate is a very 'young' Christian, even if he is middle-aged. He belongs to a type of Christianity that is on a par with Appalacian snake-handlers (based on an obscure passage in Mark 16:17-18) as far as I am concerned. Love, viz a viz, 'agape' - the form of love expressed in the NT is a dispassionate Compassion, different from 'eros,' and 'philias.' Agape is phenomenologically identical to Compassion as expressed in Buddhism, just as 'metta,' 'loving kindness' in Buddhism expresses a more affective flavor of the seemingly Stoic agape.

These psychological descriptions are subtle yet profound because God is identified in the NT as "love" and it is imperative to understand love as a state of being, not as a biochemical-psychological human emotion. In other words, love in Christianity, and its agapic expression is central to Christian metaphysics just as the nature of the Clear Light (Sunya, Sunyata, the Void) is in Buddhism.

Glossolalia, speaking in tongues, is a common secular subconscious expression and not (or, at least, no longer) any indication of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in a language that one has not learned, meanwhile, is considered proof of demonic possession to such Christians.

Agape/Compassion is the sine qua non of spiritual Illumination/Enlightenment in Christianity and Buddhism respectively, IMO.

Incidentally, 'karma' was never seen in classic Hinduism as apart from Brahman. Karma is a spiritual law which does not preclude the existence of God. Buddha would not answer questions about Brahman because it is presumptuous in any faith to claim one knows Deity. Buddha worked exclusively with one's psychology, to the alleviation of suffering. Nowhere does he deny the existence of God. He simply taught not to be reliant upon Divine graces and to work out the human pole of the [Jungian] "ego-Self axis."




As i said before, the law of dependant origniation strongly refutes any idea of a creator being being the first cause. And yes, the Buddha did speak out many times against the notion of Brahma, and made it clear that practitioners who worship brahma, as a result, are born in the Brahamaloka realms within samsara.

If you studied the twelve links of dependent origination, you would see how karma fits into the structure of the Buddha's teaching. As far as the Buddha was concerned, even the notion of God was as sidetrack to the path of total liberation, awakening. Why? Take the arrow in the eye metaphor, that im sure you have heard many times, as proof and answer to this fact.

Also in many sutras the Buddha even refers to Brahma as the great deluded one, who thinks himself supreme, when in fact he still resides in Samsara. He also explains how the notion of God came to exist in the minds of human beings, at the beginning of this world age. I will try to dig this quote out for you, as it is a very interesting one.

All this said, i agree with what you've said about my house mate. You were pretty much spot on i think. He gets very offended when my other house mate, a gnostic xtaian, starts to mention the use of magic mushrooms within xtainity as the real meaning behind alot of things jesus said in the bible.


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Offlineloveme
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
    #6472345 - 01/18/07 02:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

ya cant spell mythology without myth

there is not god

is there was a god he would make things better

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
    #6472587 - 01/18/07 07:22 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

No need to quote. I understand the doctrine and the metaphysics. I also have a prayer life for many years in which astounding responsive actions have occurred. I am not speaking to worship as in the dualistic principle, but to simple recognition of Ultimate Reality in which Buddha did not speak to Saguna Brahman (God with attributes) but only to Nirguna Brahman which, in principle, is none other than the Transpersonal Absolute by whatever Name you wish to call it.

I am NOT speaking to worship of a separate Being, but to Realization of Being Itself. Buddha did for Brahmanism what Jesus did for Judaism. The parallels are obvious to me despite the personalization of God for Jesus. Nevertheless, the Realization of God by Jesus was a far cry from worship of YHVH by the priesthood and their followers. Jesus relationship with God has tremendous parallels with Buddha's transcendental principles in which all illusory notions of anthropomorphized God are eliminated.

The Absolute for me can never be 'less' than human beinghood, which is why Transpersonal incorporates the personal sphere just as the Hindu notion of 'Ishwara' - Lord - did within a greater Transcendental context. Practically speaking, The Absolute and our beinghood are SO integrated that by disassembling one's personality for Enlightenment, he could not help but disassemble God's attributes since they belong NOT to Absolute Reality as such, but to human interaction with The Absolute on the personal plane. After a glimpse of Nirvana, and looking into the microstructure of personality, it was like the quantum physicist affirming that 'nothing is solid,' just various densities.

My ultimate problem with Buddhism is on its insistence on viewing existence on this microlevel and ignoring matter-of-fact common reality. That is because Buddhism is an 'acosmic' religion, not a 'historical' religion which finds meaning in creation and historical drama. Quantum physicists are correct from that point of view, but 'common sense' is also correct from its point of view, in the illusion. Remember Samsara is Nirvana and vice versa.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: loveme]
    #6472681 - 01/18/07 08:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

loveme said:
ya cant spell mythology without myth



And "myth" is a commonly misunderstood term. Read The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell(or any of his books) and you'll see what I mean. All myths are true.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6472735 - 01/18/07 09:24 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
My ultimate problem with Buddhism is on its insistence on viewing existence on this microlevel and ignoring matter-of-fact common reality. That is because Buddhism is an 'acosmic' religion, not a 'historical' religion which finds meaning in creation and historical drama. Quantum physicists are correct from that point of view, but 'common sense' is also correct from its point of view, in the illusion. Remember Samsara is Nirvana and vice versa.




Buddhism does not ignore common reality. In fact it is in the very heart of 'Buddhist' wisdom. Nagarjuna, the 14th Patriarch, wrote detailed explications of what came to be known as the Two Truths. The first being conventional/common/relative truth (such as fire is hot or Bush is the president of the USA) and the second being absolute or ultimate truth (the emptiness of everything, or dependent origination). The two are completely dependent on each other like two sides of a coin. Without conventional truth, there could be no ultimate truth. As you say, there is no nirvana without samsara.

The ultimate truth does not deny conventional truth, rather it "reveals the true nature of what one knows at the conventional level of truth."

"Nagarjuna takes a middle position where one reenvisions the mundane world from the standpoint of the ultimate truth. In this Middle Way, one enjoys the freedom of Nirvana on the one hand, while dealing compassionately with the conditions of samsara on the other. Realizing the emptiness of both samsara and Nirvana, one is detached from both samsaric conditions and the unconditioned status of Nirvana."
(Mitchell)

In other words, true freedom lies in intuitively understanding conventional truth and absolute truth, and not being attached to either.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: dblaney]
    #6472764 - 01/18/07 09:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
My ultimate problem with Buddhism is on its insistence on viewing existence on this microlevel and ignoring matter-of-fact common reality. That is because Buddhism is an 'acosmic' religion, not a 'historical' religion which finds meaning in creation and historical drama. Quantum physicists are correct from that point of view, but 'common sense' is also correct from its point of view, in the illusion. Remember Samsara is Nirvana and vice versa.




Buddhism does not ignore common reality. In fact it is in the very heart of 'Buddhist' wisdom. Nagarjuna, the 14th Patriarch, wrote detailed explications of what came to be known as the Two Truths. The first being conventional/common/relative truth (such as fire is hot or Bush is the president of the USA) and the second being absolute or ultimate truth (the emptiness of everything, or dependent origination). The two are completely dependent on each other like two sides of a coin. Without conventional truth, there could be no ultimate truth. As you say, there is no nirvana without samsara.

The ultimate truth does not deny conventional truth, rather it "reveals the true nature of what one knows at the conventional level of truth."

"Nagarjuna takes a middle position where one reenvisions the mundane world from the standpoint of the ultimate truth. In this Middle Way, one enjoys the freedom of Nirvana on the one hand, while dealing compassionately with the conditions of samsara on the other. Realizing the emptiness of both samsara and Nirvana, one is detached from both samsaric conditions and the unconditioned status of Nirvana."
(Mitchell)

In other words, true freedom lies in intuitively understanding conventional truth and absolute truth, and not being attached to either.




Understanding of conventional truth, leads one to the understanding of the ultimate truth. This is why in Buddhism the importance of relative point view is seen as vital to discovering genuine ultimate truth, i.e shunyata. Differing relative views lead to differing realizations concerning the ultimate nature, as ones path is followed.

Brahma without attributes realization leads to formless realms, Brahma with attributes realization leads to birth in form realms, this is very clear doctrinally as far as the Sutras are concerned. There are many degrees and levels of God realization, none of which are the same as Nirvana, as the Buddha has revealed.

Buddha said that "He who sees dependent origination sees the Dharma and he who sees the Dharma sees the Buddha". This is why the Buddha said that understanding dependent origination is the key to liberation, because once we see clearly the functioning of dependent origination, we can then set about breaking this vicious samsaric cycle.

I'm not refuting that there have been Hindu practitioners in the past, and present that realize dependent origination, and are liberated, just as Buddha himself did. This is highly possible and plausible.

What i am stating here is that any path that involves as practical ideas, form/formless God's, Souls, Super souls, or any other such eternalistic Vedanta notions as there basis for realization, will not result in Nirvana as the Buddha has taught.

Buddha did not consider Vedanta teaching and philosophy to be an authority on liberation, and neither do I.


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Edited by Sinbad (01/18/07 11:54 AM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
    #6473404 - 01/18/07 01:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"Brahma without attributes realization leads to formless realms, Brahma with attributes realization leads to birth in form realms, this is very clear doctrinally as far as the Sutras are concerned. There are many degrees and levels of God realization, none of which are the same as Nirvana, as the Buddha has revealed."

A small but critical point here. Brahman is the Unconditioned Absolute - the same doctrine that Buddha grew up with. Similarly to Christian Trinitarian thought (most Christian theologians would disagree with me), there is Brahma (Creator), Vishnu (Preserver) and Shiva (Destroyer). Many cults grew up based on these Hypostases, each cult making one ontologically prior (more important!) than the others. This is one point among others that Buddha objected to - it is as absurd as Christian systematic theology which has the audacity to describe the Divine
Economia - which is to say, which Hypostasis governs which aspects of Reality. It is absurd to posit such things in any religion and Buddha obviously must have known that. These are constructs and mythic representations that have correspondences with our own human subdivisions of the psyche.

Buddha is a heretic among Hindus precisely because his doctrine did not adhere to Vedic authority, but that was his trip. There is enough similarity in some critical Upanishadic symbolism (regarding the Amrit Nadi between Heart and Head, and Vajrayana practices concerning the red and white 'drops' that merge in the Heart and leave by the Crown), that there is phenomenological identity in their respective symbols of Liberation. Moreover, I would hold to the same principle in our discussion of Buddhism as I hold in some of my discussions with funamentalist Christians - that it is not doctrine that is 'salvific'/'liberating.' It is the quality of the Awareness, Compassionate Awareness of the aspirant. Different paths, and intellectually held doctrines suit different constitutions of character.

If you cannot experience the high value of Advaita, that does not mean that Advaita does not result in Liberation. Your inability to appreciate the words and experiences that flow from that tradition is your own shortcoming. I certainly cannot grok every tradition, even intellectually (life is too short to really steep myself in every one sufficiently to get glimpses through every tradition). You have found a Way that suits you. I am glad for you, but don't allow your personal preferences to prejudice your views of so many human beings. As the Third Chinese Patriarch of Zen advised in the 'Hsin Hsin Ming,' "...cease to cherish opinions." Here is a Taoist path that appeals to me, yet I will remain confident that The Way as Tao is often translated, is the same Way of which Jesus speaks in the Gospels when He says "I am the Way..." as BE HERE NOW showed me long ago. Doctrines are worlds apart, The Way is ONE. How could it be otherwise?

http://www.csulb.edu/~wweinste/HsinHsinMing.html


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6473519 - 01/18/07 01:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Doctrines are worlds apart, The Way is ONE. How could it be otherwise?




"Call it 'unity', it is of many kinds. Call it 'duplicity,' it is nondualistic."

:grin:

Anyways, it may be possible to realize liberation with Advaita and other schools, but it's also quite possible that such a realization could be false or presumptuous. That possibility also exists with Buddhism or any other path.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: dblaney]
    #6474258 - 01/18/07 06:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

When I was in college, Krsna devotees used to come to campus. One joked about kidnapping me. I had a long pony tail, which they would shave off and start from scratch. Some of them said that Krsna would pull me up to 'Heaven' by that pony tail.

Bhakti devotees, from a Buddhist perspective based on doctrine, whether Krsnas or Christians, would deny Liberation to such beings. Or, they would be said to be reborn until their participation in the Dharma would free them (as if, contradictorily, there is an individual entity that is born and dies. More illusion). This is much like maintaining that 'my God is better than your God,'
or 'we get liberated and you go to Hell or some Hungry Ghost realm, or rebirth as a lower life form,' whatever. Thomas Merton was a hero of mine in his travels through Asia and India as a Catholic Trappist monk. He unfortunately died before he could come up with any conclusions about spiritual paths. He may have been a Catholic, and the byline is that Catholics rule, but I bet he was impressed by what he saw of contemplative Eastern traditions that would make his Cistercian Order look juvenile in its lack of sophistication.

http://www.merton.org/collection.htm


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Irdamage]
    #6474718 - 01/18/07 08:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Irdamage said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Had a conversation with a xtian that i live with today about Buddhism. i was explaining things like the dynamics of karma and how this forms the basis of morality without the need for a godlike creator being. I also explained a little about wisdom, kindness and compassion, and how ending suffering for ourselves automatically has pure compassion as its result, and that until then, compassion will always be conditioned.

After explaining all this, he said that Buddhism sounds too simplistic, and like a convenient philosophy, and also how kindness and compassion aren't very spiritual qualities. I asked him to explain why he thought this, as i have always considered kindness and compassion to be very spiritually awakened attributes. He said that kindness was a given, that it is something that comes naturally to him, and he considers spiritual gifts from God, such as talking in tongues and other siddhi's to be of much more spiritual significance.

Personally i have had to observe well, checking my intentions and working with my emotions to become even the slightest bit genuinely compassionate and kind to others.

My question is, do you consider kindness and compassion to be more or less spiritually significant than mystical abilities?

And also, how difficult is it for you to be genuinely or naturally compassionate and kind to your fellow beings?
Peace




Nothing personal but I can easily see how someone could take offence to this. If not offence then at least be forced to propose their own point of views. Im going to avoid the kindness and compassion issue and jump right into the social issues that arise here. I think you bit off more than you could chew by trying to explain things as complex as Karma,morality,wisdom,kindness and compassion, and you may have come off either condicending or even very prideful of your "knowledge of life". To quote some buttfuck televangelist "As you grow old you discover many things, some things you were right about in youth, and some things you were wrong about, but dont be cocky inbetween" I just think you sounded a little pompus there trying to explain all these individually defined concepts.




LOL, sounds like a very enlightened view on it

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