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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3460415 -

How am I supposed to read into your hidden messages if you don't make them clear?

How can you go around posting things that directly contradict what your supposedly implied meaning was and expect someone to take it for what you meant?

I'm sorry if I reacted harshly, but it seemed like a very literal and real response.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460419 -

As do many of the posts that question my beliefes and this is my point. I hope that any who read this understand. :cheers:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3460438 -

Was I the one who questioned your beliefs in such a way? If so, please point out where.

As I just stated, I actually said that christianity is a working way to meet god, which is actually the opposite of bashing it...

And if I was not the one, then why do you come along and shit on me for what some other person did to you?

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460446 -

great meditation advice jacques, I couldn't agree more :smile:

and I know that the simple explanation, void of conventional 'logic' is NOT what one is seeking, and I guess that's my fault. But... this is not a 'conventional' experience, and it stands infinitely behind any words or pattern percieved 'logic'. so when someone asks me what it is like, I tell them my subjective and honest truth as best I can (obviously words fail at describing something lacking all observation, linguistic concepts, and conventional logic).

to find it, the person (or lack thereof :wink:) needs to search themselves and discover what cannot be 'discovered'. and so, while a nice description may seem ample at describing the _memory_ of the experience, the actual experience itself is missed.

we are a part of the eternal description

here it is

and here

over there too...

:cool:


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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: deff]
    #3460458 -

I agree that it is definitely something that words cannot describe... but to not even try does not do justice to my fellow man's right to understand.

When trying to operate within the limitations of linguistics, all one can do is offer the description of their own memories of the experience.

So that's what I do, in hopes of sparking some understanding in someone else that will lead to their own self discovery.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: deff]
    #3460462 -

why is non-existance seen as 'bad'?

That's a paradox if I've ever heard one. Non-existence can't be truthfully judged as bad, because to honestly judge something you have to experience it, and if you're experiencing non-existence you don't have the ability to judge. I guess that's the point you're making.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3460478 -

Yeah, that's kind of the point... the idea is to not intrinsically judge things that you cannot know. To just allow them to be, without the need for labeling.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460486 -

JacquesCousteau said:
Was I the one who questioned your beliefs in such a way? If so, please point out where.

As I just stated, I actually said that christianity is a working way to meet god, which is actually the opposite of bashing it...

And if I was not the one, then why do you come along and shit on me for what some other person did to you?



Ok I was hoping this would have not gotten so far out of proportion. Go back and read my first post. I was not pointing a finger at you. I was pointing my finger at all of you. Try not to take it so personal. You just happened to be the last person in the thread.


Later and peace out :heart: :laugh:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460525 -

I am really glad to see you have this open attitude towards the situation, even after having experienced it as a bad thing. Many people experience a "bad trip" and mentally close the doors, marking it as a danger zone in their minds

Close the doors!!? When I'm so close to the truth? You got to be kidding me. :laugh: Jacques, everything you've said so far has been really insightul, so thank you.

By the way, this experience has totally shattered or at least permanently changed my belief system. Up to now I've believed consciousness can exist independent of the body, hence spirits, ghosts, etc. I suppose this is still possible, but my ideas about the nature of this seems to no longer fit with what I've experienced. I just don't see how non-physical entities can maintain a sense of individuation without the ego. My head is spinning from trying to figure that one out.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3460561 -

"we, are all nothing thing doth matter"
-unknown :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3460618 -

Quote:
Max Headroom said:
I just don't see how non-physical entities can maintain a sense of individuation without the ego. My head is spinning from trying to figure that one out.



Oh, but you shall soon understand. :wink:

Your next trip will be a good one, my friend. :smile:

Here is my take on it, though, in the mean time:

The idea of being individuals is an illusion created by the ego. We are all part of one consciousness. In a way, we are the same consciousness experiencing itself seperately. When the ego is removed, the illusion disappears but WE do not disappear. We remain. There is no sense of individualism because there IS no individualism when it comes to consciousness. That is the illusion created by the ego.

if this seems confusing, I assure you it will not once you've let go in the face of that great void.

The fact that consciousness remains after ego is removed is actually more reason to lean towards the idea that we ARE capable of existing outside of the body than not. To me, anyway.

Like I said, I don't form solid opinions on the unknown, which is why I say "lean towards"...

Edit: So I ask you this: Why does a lack of individualism suggest to you that we cannot exist independant of the body?

Without individualism, there is still existance.. This is exactly what I've learned from my ego loss experiences, which is why I've learned that a lack of individualism does NOT necessarily mean that we cannot exist independant of the body. :smile:

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3460721 -

I still believe what you say things are, is the way it really is, nothingness.
And those who've seen it (me included) forget how to see it that way. Because normal beeing wants to place it in a category fit for regular beeing. So you can at least handle it when you are not in that state. But the sad side to it is that you forget to see it the way you know it really is. And destroy it by saying things like shrooms/psychedelics are amplifiers and only create what you expect. You even for see this way of interpeting your newly found concept of the world beeing destroyed later on. I still can recall the actual moment I realised, but it doesn't have the powerfull feeling anymore.

PM me if you want to.  :wink:


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460799 -

The idea of being individuals is an illusion created by the ego. We are all part of one consciousness.

Yes, this is evident to me now more than ever. The immenseness of the void, this pure consciousness, was such that it truely seemed infinite. The universe that we live in, just seemed sooo insignificant and limited, compared to the potential of the void. Even though I still had my ego, I could see this infiniteness. What disturbed me, or my ego, was that it wasn't being used! (Or maybe it is and I don't know it?) The universe we exist in just seemed like such a very small finite portion of this huge neverending... whatever. Basically, I guess my ego was disappointed that I reached "the end" of its experience, and that it couldn't go any further.

Now let me explain what I had thought about individuation. I had, in the past, believed that spirits have a sense of individuation such that they retain knowledge from incarnation to incarnation, and that they can interact with the physical world in some ways such as channeling their knowledge to incarnate entities. But now... this no longer seems to be the case. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll have to see for myself once I experience ego loss, but from what you're saying you believe there's no indivualization of consciousness (even in the form of souls) whatsoever once the ego is gone?

One last question, to you or anyone else who can answer it: Is there any trouble with regaining your ego once you've lost it during a psychedelic experience? Is this something I should be concerned about? Will I have trouble remembering who I am or what time I'm supposed to go to work in the morning?

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3460829 -

Haha.. no, there is no permanent disconnection. It's actually kind of a downer when you wake up back in your ego the next morning.

Here is a PM I was about to send you, might help to make my point moreso:

Hey man, I want to elaborate on this subject with you...

I asked this in the thread:
"Edit: So I ask you this: Why does a lack of individualism suggest to you that we cannot exist independant of the body?"

And I'd like to hear your take on that... I think that you are falsely associating the ego with the body, for some reason. The thing that is learned during an ego loss experience is that the ego can be removed without you dying "consiously" or physically.. which means very specifically that the ego and body are quite seperate concepts; just like the ego and your consciousness are quite seperate.

Therefore, a lack of ego (and therefore individualism) does not necessarily imply that we cannot exist independant of the body.

Infact, it's quite reassuring of the idea that we might be able to exist independant of the body, because it reveals to you that when everything you consider yourself mentally disappears "you" are still there to experience the result, because consciousness remains.

This implies a strong possibility that if what you consider yourself physically disappears, there would still be this consciousness remaining.

Whatcha think? :smile:

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3460880 -

Okay, let me see if I can elaborate based on what you said...

Now let me explain what I had thought about individuation. I had, in the past, believed that spirits have a sense of individuation such that they retain knowledge from incarnation to incarnation, and that they can interact with the physical world in some ways such as channeling their knowledge to incarnate entities. But now... this no longer seems to be the case. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll have to see for myself once I experience ego loss, but from what you're saying you believe there's no indivualization of consciousness (even in the form of souls) whatsoever once the ego is gone?

I believe in a more loose form of reincarnation that does not rely on the concept of individualism. Basically it is a collective reincarnation system... like drops of rain falling into a body of water, it mixes back into the mass and then is drawn back up in vapor to fall again as individual drops.

This is why we can't "remember" our prior incarnations... they were not of our ego-bound self-identification.

I don't believe that messages can be channeled from your ancestors, for example... but I DO believe that you can "feel" the spirit of others if you look for it within yourself, because it is the SAME spirit that dwells within us all.

The illusion of seperation and individualism is so strong that it seems that it is "the norm" and that the idea of collection and lack of individual identity is "bad."

But the fact is, there is no reason to see individualism as superior to collective consciousness. Infact, it kind of has the polar opposite effect once you've tried both... it actually shows death to be an illusion in a way, because death becomes just the return to collective consciousness--nothing but energy shifting forms.

Perhaps you've heard of the scientific idea that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only transformed?

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460912 -

No, no, I think you got the wrong idea. I'm not associating the ego with the body or with consciousness. Right now, as I see it, we have body, mind, and spirit. The body is the body, of course. The mind I would equate with the ego, perhaps as the same thing. Does this work? And the spirit would be our immortal consciousness, existing with or without the body or mind. So I'm not doubting at all that "we" can exist independent of the body, if by "we" you mean consciousness. I'm not arguing that at all. I believe we can exist independent of the body, in the form of pure consciousness.

The problem I have, which I think you've misread or misunderstood, is that discarnate entities "supposedly" can do things like retain memories from incarnation to incarnation or channel their knowledge to an incarnate channeler. I'm not saying these things are definite, even though up to this point I believed such things may be true, but from what you're saying, from your ego loss experiences, there seems to be NO individualization of knowledge without the ego? So such things as retaining knowledge from incarnations, as an individual soul, would not be possible. This knowledge would then just be assimilated into this borderless mass of infinite consciousness?

EDIT: This reply was in response to the PM you posted, but now you've explained what I was getting at.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3461026 -

Yeah, I misinterpretted what you meant at first. Sorry about that. :smile:

Sounds like we are on the same page now, as I've explained how my beliefs fit into a lack of such things as discarnate beings' memory retention. :smile:

Man, I hope you get to peak behind the curtain on your next trip... I have the feeling you will be able to let go. You have the intellect necessary to grasp this, AND you have the open-mindedness necessary to consider such depth.

Peace and love, man, I know you are on your way to something big.  :heart:

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3465201 -

Well those were wise responses coming from you and deff, but I'm pretty sure that both of you have experienced death of ego by psychedelic means. So saying that you need nothing to be nothing is quite contradictary.

It seems to me that the psychedelic ego death is the easiest and most evident experiencable form of ego death. Jacques, the part were you responded to my post mostly relates to the quietning of the ego, and not its actual death. I think that when I hear about your present degree of ego quietness, I'd say that I'm about at the same degree. But my ego has never undegone a "death", and I'd be interested as to what that feels like, even though when I meditate i can completely "shut it off", but its not an actual death.

This was just to point out the difference between ego death and ego quietness. I'd say its pretty big. I think that if I continue my meditation as I do, I'd probably reach something even purer than the psychedelic ego death. So basically, to get to the answer of my original question, I guess drugs and meditation are the only paths to ego death (besides actually dying of course...)

All in all, this thread is probably going to help me the day i'm ready to go through this whole thing. thanx every1 :smile:

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