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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience
    #1720352 - 07/16/03 04:16 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1720541 - 07/16/03 05:37 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

They create apathy...


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1720619 - 07/16/03 06:56 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The universal effect would have to be hallucinations, distinct for each drug.

Here are some theories on medium-dosages:

Psilocybin: Stimulates our neo-cortex, aids in creative and abstract thought, causes hallucinations by overlaying mental concepts onto our visual circuits, unleashes the ability to "experience" our thoughts and emotions.

LSD: A different way to think, works by providing a new method for electric signals to pass between neurons. This allows problems to be examined from potentially new approaches. These approaches may or may not be useful, but at times can give rise to improved solutions.

I believe both drugs aid in making humans smarter.

Psilocybin has been used for a long time, having an impact on the evolution of our brains. LSD is a recent phenomena, and I suspect that the digital computer revolution owes alot to LSD.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1720651 - 07/16/03 07:41 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think the universal effect of the tryptamine hallucinogens is to weaken all internal filters and barriers in a person's mind. That would explain the increase in strength and range of associations, the CEV's and OEV's, the depersonalizations, the self-insights, and the higher spiritual sensitivity.

So these drugs are mainly catalysts, and the similarities between experiences are due to the similarities between minds. Ego-death and transcendent consciousness is such an experience, even though it's not 100% universal since it doesn't happen all the time. My own theory is that it happens when the brain is so impaired by the drug so that the entire self-image and it's associated control structure vanishes, while the internal observation and recording functions are still working. This gives us a glimpse or reflection of trans-human consciousness to take back home with us in our brains.

That's what I think.


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1720835 - 07/16/03 09:27 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think the various entheogens open a door in our consciousness and allow us to perceive aspects of existence normally unavailable to use via our limited sensory tool set. Is this an obvious statement? Seems like it to me, but then I've over time gone from the perspective of taking stuff to trip, to partaking of means to see beyond, to experience the otherwise hidden. I feel like we engage in a sort of ESP while under the tutelage of the sacred shrooms, in that we possess sensory tools normally absent from what we typically have.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1721157 - 07/16/03 12:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience *DELETED* [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721193 - 07/16/03 12:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: poke smot!]
    #1721217 - 07/16/03 12:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721356 - 07/16/03 01:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I remember reading some researcher who said that there are many drugs that have hallucinations as side-effects at high dosages, because they fuck with the brain's biochemistry, but psilocybin is the only drug that only has side-effects. :smile:

This is a simplification though. Every hallucinogenic drug has its own "feel", including psilocybin (large pupils, yawning, tremors, chills). And the "feel" of LSD is different from psilocybin, etc. Harmaline is even more different, and salvia divinorum has its own very special features (spatial directions and angles get weird for example). And there are synthetic tryptamines and phenethylamines that reportedly produce very specific types of hallucinations. There is a lot of research ahead of us here, I believe.
 


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1721583 - 07/16/03 02:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think the chemistry underlying the human/entheogen interactions is fascinating (and admittedly pretty complicated when considered in detail), but is but one way of considering it too; the spiritual aspect fascinates me, as I wonder if one doesn't really cleanse the doors of perception, and gain access to other parts of existence otherwise hidden away from us. I've started reading Metzner's 'Ayahuasca', recently, and the accounts of it's use are really something else, such as eating/being eaten by the snake/serpent, or being turned inside-out and having elves take away organs to clean/repair.
Elves/elf-like beings seem to be common to a variety of substances/concoctions used for visionary pursuits, which is pretty fascinating in itself, and they seem typically be noted as repairmen/engineer types, dismantling and fixing things. I think they may be worth a forum unto themselves.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1721759 - 07/16/03 03:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the only universal of tripping is that everyone who tripps is getting fucked up. some try to pretend like they aren't getting fucked up, but everyone actally is, in fact, getting fucked.

everything else is subjective.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Malachi]
    #1721821 - 07/16/03 04:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know what YOU mean by "fucked up," but I take that as becoming 'messed up' in some way. Now I agree that one can certainly take too much at one time; or too much too many times in a short period of time; or one can take psychedelics before one is developmentally capable of being aided by the ensuing experience, and get traumatized by it; or one may precipitate a psychosis if one is predisposed to this time of disorder.

I abused psychedelics at a point of my life, but I also learned to use them constructively, hundreds of times, with the framework of classical Yoga, so that my ethics and morals and responsibilities were met before embarking upon extremely disoriented thoughts and energy currents that only a morally, psychologically and physically pure individual could assimilate successfully.

So...psychedelics changed the direction of my life, fueled a passion that took me through ten years of study, and 3 reputable university degrees, including a Ph.D., motivated me to undergo some 8 years of Jungian analysis, to get licensed and certified in clinical specialties like hypnosis and addictions counseling (lots of jumping through hoops), pursue a long professional career which also supplies my material needs, and most importantly to develop into a physically, psychologically and spiritually healthy person.

In defense of Psychedelics, AKA Entheogens - I am not "fucked up."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721877 - 07/16/03 04:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think BE HERE NOW was completely clear on the question of what are Psychedelics (Mind - Manifesting) philosophically considered. You may not like what Ram Dass'sconclusions were based on the key figure of Neem Karolie Baba, his Guru, but the conclusions were clearly made.

Neem Karolie considered LSD to be a sacrament in the simple meaning that through its incorporation, the Experience showed one "Christ." He was very specific about the Name. He also said that it would be better to Be Christ (a Hindu formulation of what we would say 'Be in Christ') than merely to have Christ's visit. The text opens with THE HEART CAVE, or Hridayam, which takes you immediately to the Hindu version of the Sacred Heart of Christ that is commonly found in Catholic homes.

Neem Karolie also said that materialistic Americans needed a material to come to Christ, so a material materialized, so-to-speak. This happens to be why I became a Christian - it happened to me through LSD, that I awakened to a Conscience that was Higher than my own, and which was so compelling that I trusted in it to guide my life. I didn't know Who or What to call it at first - it took 4 years of seeking - but eventually I decided to receive Baptism in order to manifest to others what my Heart-of-Hearts, my Heart Cave - contained.

So for me, Psychedelics are more - they are truly Entheogens (God-generated-within). Moreso than Bread and Wine by themselves, these substances awakened me to the Eternal Presence that is 'received' in one's Heart Cave. No less than the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist are Entheogens the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. And What/Who is Christ? The Annointed - as with Holy Oil (Chrism) - the symbol of the Spirit of God. And What/Who is the Spirit of God? The Awareness of God that seems to come upon one as a Presence. For God IS Spirit, and Spirit of God would otherwise be redundant. Without our Awareness (Consciousness) of God, God is not Present to us. Awareness or Consciousness of God is what Entheogens are about in the most profound sense - the sacramental (sacred-mind) sense.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1722006 - 07/16/03 05:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

wow that's awesome Markos, thanks for sharing that.


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1722108 - 07/16/03 05:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

it's not that I don't give credence to the whole spiritual trip, it's just that I think it's dishonest to try to wrap yourself up in the guru cloth of authority. I'm of the frim belief that we're all in the trip as equally clueless peers who merely stumble into the cavern of awareness whilst persuing a fixation which has nothing to do with awareness per se. I'm basically saying that our drive to trip isn't a premeditated spiritual journey - it can't be conceptualized beforehand.

like having a child. guys fuck to feel good, never intending to become tied down to a woman and child. it's instict, he just wants to get his hump on. however, whilst experiencing this hump, or after a child is born, etc, it can (and often does) transform into a mystical union, creating bonds where none existed - no exchange or deal making or studying beforehand or even any certifications. the profundity of creating life can't be conceptualized by the pre-father, no matter what people say about understanding the role that they will be undertaking.
hence my statement before, everyone goes into it unintentionally, for kicks, no matter if they justify it by citing a professional or spirtual roadmap.

and no, I don't think that after a certain number of trips you then stop doing it for the pleasure. you just remember the pleasure of whatever it is (juries still out) that happens, and you want to get back to it, but you don't think about it in the same manner as you would while tripping.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Malachi]
    #1722166 - 07/16/03 06:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I haven't lived my life 'unintentionally' for a long, long time. Intentionality is the ONE characteristic of consciousness that all the Existential-Phenomenologists agree upon. They are the 'philosophers of consciousnesss' in the West. Consciousness is always intentional, no matter what it intends to be conscious of.

Neem Karoli was a genuine phenomenon - not a fraud, not a cult leader - the real McCoy. He may well have been living fully in Sat Chit Ananda (Being-Knowledge-Bliss) - the highest state of Samadhi or absorption in God, as described by the Hindu tradition. This is a mystical condition called by other names in other religious frameworks, and often constellates tremendous amounts of synchronistic phenomena around individuals who are so immersed - usually called miracles.

As to your "drive to trip" - I am not motivated to expand by drive-motives. Those motives are embodied in my earth-plane lower centers. Tripping is a decision, a choice, a free-willed, existential expression and not rooted in my more determined nature. I have chosen NOT to procreate in this lifetime, and have been quite intentional about it. I am a philosopher by bent, and I haven't the nervous system for child-rearing. A short-coming perhaps, but not without benefits. Sex has always been foundational, but I have learned to perform the Inner Alchemy and place sex in the service of Love. Sex does not have free-reign as it is blind and stupid. My higher functions determine how, when and with whom it may operate.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1723149 - 07/16/03 11:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hehehe, sounds like some of you guys haven't been taking your powerful mind tools.

in be here now they implyed that psychedelics were minor tools if at all useful.

i've read lots of other ram dass stuff that doesn't quite say that. but the gist of ram dass's experiances what that psychedelics are mainly just a way to get a single step on the right path.


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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1723531 - 07/17/03 01:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the gist of ram dass's experiances what that psychedelics are mainly just a way to get a single step on the right path.




In the case of Ram Dass/Richard Alpert, that single step consisted of six years of heavy tripping in 1961-1967.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1723693 - 07/17/03 02:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

a lot of activities can help bring oneself into the fullness of experience. think of activities that can help you let go of the pressures and anxieties of time. think of riding a bike; sitting outside by a warm, cracklingcampfire; floating on your back in the lake on a summer day; or making love by moonlight. the goal of such activities isn't the productivity of the time spent, like when you push yourself hard in the office to take care of responsibilities to free up some time. the emphasis is on enjoying the flow of life, which surrounds you and overwhelms you with its presence. to take a car ride in the country to watch the falling leaves in autumn and listen to the grateful dead versus taking the freeway to get your movies back to the rental store quickly before it's overdue.
if you nourish yourself frequently with these experiences, you'll have the space within them to contemplate, reminesce freely - possibly things you didn't really want to deal with come to surface, but your attitude is no longer a hurry to rid yourself of these issues, you come to care about them.
lsd is a powerful mind-alterning drug, a mental rollercoaster, as a metaphor, if you will. facet water could whizz on by you like the pavement to your feet on a motercylce taking your breath away. things in your life you normally take for granted, like climbing a flight of stairs, now freed of time, seem insanely vivid that you really care about the activity. the preconceived notions of what is trite, things that seemed boring due to repitition (you've climbed that flight of stairs to your apartment hundreds of times), have became living and breathing-- "how foolish i've been to disregard the intricacies of the wood-working on this old table i've had forever all this time!" while ideas, emotions, thoughts, attitudes that truly were trite come to the surface --- as poisonous, noxious, and foul --- your attitude towards doing the dishes was screwed up.... "gee, why do soap bubbles form... anyways?"
when you think about the truth, what is the truth of lsd is doing... your attitude isn't that you're in a hurry to find out because you're in a hurry to get some place with the newly attained knowledge, but rather your attitude is a caring, slow, thurough, curious investigation.
the acid trip isn't totally alienated from you, you feel as if you belong here taking this drug, observing it through experience.

peace & hugs, cj


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1723753 - 07/17/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

it's funny the way channels of common thought flow. your words are quite relevant to me. more and more lately some people come along who have the capacity to impart something deep to me. occasionally, now and then, it's my turn to pass something deep along, perhaps easier among other mediums than the BB.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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