Home | Community | Message Board

Myco.ca - Spores & Cultivation Supplies
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience
    #1720352 - 07/16/03 04:16 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleEgo Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1720541 - 07/16/03 05:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

They create apathy...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1720619 - 07/16/03 06:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The universal effect would have to be hallucinations, distinct for each drug.

Here are some theories on medium-dosages:

Psilocybin: Stimulates our neo-cortex, aids in creative and abstract thought, causes hallucinations by overlaying mental concepts onto our visual circuits, unleashes the ability to "experience" our thoughts and emotions.

LSD: A different way to think, works by providing a new method for electric signals to pass between neurons. This allows problems to be examined from potentially new approaches. These approaches may or may not be useful, but at times can give rise to improved solutions.

I believe both drugs aid in making humans smarter.

Psilocybin has been used for a long time, having an impact on the evolution of our brains. LSD is a recent phenomena, and I suspect that the digital computer revolution owes alot to LSD.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1720651 - 07/16/03 07:41 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think the universal effect of the tryptamine hallucinogens is to weaken all internal filters and barriers in a person's mind. That would explain the increase in strength and range of associations, the CEV's and OEV's, the depersonalizations, the self-insights, and the higher spiritual sensitivity.

So these drugs are mainly catalysts, and the similarities between experiences are due to the similarities between minds. Ego-death and transcendent consciousness is such an experience, even though it's not 100% universal since it doesn't happen all the time. My own theory is that it happens when the brain is so impaired by the drug so that the entire self-image and it's associated control structure vanishes, while the internal observation and recording functions are still working. This gives us a glimpse or reflection of trans-human consciousness to take back home with us in our brains.

That's what I think.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineTheHobbit
Pot Head Pixie

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 863
Loc: the Oily Way...
Last seen: 18 years, 23 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1720835 - 07/16/03 09:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think the various entheogens open a door in our consciousness and allow us to perceive aspects of existence normally unavailable to use via our limited sensory tool set. Is this an obvious statement? Seems like it to me, but then I've over time gone from the perspective of taking stuff to trip, to partaking of means to see beyond, to experience the otherwise hidden. I feel like we engage in a sort of ESP while under the tutelage of the sacred shrooms, in that we possess sensory tools normally absent from what we typically have.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1721157 - 07/16/03 12:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblepoke smot!
floccinocci floofinator
Male

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 5,248
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience *DELETED* [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721193 - 07/16/03 12:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: poke smot!]
    #1721217 - 07/16/03 12:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721356 - 07/16/03 01:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I remember reading some researcher who said that there are many drugs that have hallucinations as side-effects at high dosages, because they fuck with the brain's biochemistry, but psilocybin is the only drug that only has side-effects. :smile:

This is a simplification though. Every hallucinogenic drug has its own "feel", including psilocybin (large pupils, yawning, tremors, chills). And the "feel" of LSD is different from psilocybin, etc. Harmaline is even more different, and salvia divinorum has its own very special features (spatial directions and angles get weird for example). And there are synthetic tryptamines and phenethylamines that reportedly produce very specific types of hallucinations. There is a lot of research ahead of us here, I believe.
 


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineTheHobbit
Pot Head Pixie

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 863
Loc: the Oily Way...
Last seen: 18 years, 23 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1721583 - 07/16/03 02:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think the chemistry underlying the human/entheogen interactions is fascinating (and admittedly pretty complicated when considered in detail), but is but one way of considering it too; the spiritual aspect fascinates me, as I wonder if one doesn't really cleanse the doors of perception, and gain access to other parts of existence otherwise hidden away from us. I've started reading Metzner's 'Ayahuasca', recently, and the accounts of it's use are really something else, such as eating/being eaten by the snake/serpent, or being turned inside-out and having elves take away organs to clean/repair.
Elves/elf-like beings seem to be common to a variety of substances/concoctions used for visionary pursuits, which is pretty fascinating in itself, and they seem typically be noted as repairmen/engineer types, dismantling and fixing things. I think they may be worth a forum unto themselves.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1721759 - 07/16/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

the only universal of tripping is that everyone who tripps is getting fucked up. some try to pretend like they aren't getting fucked up, but everyone actally is, in fact, getting fucked.

everything else is subjective.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Malachi]
    #1721821 - 07/16/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know what YOU mean by "fucked up," but I take that as becoming 'messed up' in some way. Now I agree that one can certainly take too much at one time; or too much too many times in a short period of time; or one can take psychedelics before one is developmentally capable of being aided by the ensuing experience, and get traumatized by it; or one may precipitate a psychosis if one is predisposed to this time of disorder.

I abused psychedelics at a point of my life, but I also learned to use them constructively, hundreds of times, with the framework of classical Yoga, so that my ethics and morals and responsibilities were met before embarking upon extremely disoriented thoughts and energy currents that only a morally, psychologically and physically pure individual could assimilate successfully.

So...psychedelics changed the direction of my life, fueled a passion that took me through ten years of study, and 3 reputable university degrees, including a Ph.D., motivated me to undergo some 8 years of Jungian analysis, to get licensed and certified in clinical specialties like hypnosis and addictions counseling (lots of jumping through hoops), pursue a long professional career which also supplies my material needs, and most importantly to develop into a physically, psychologically and spiritually healthy person.

In defense of Psychedelics, AKA Entheogens - I am not "fucked up."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721877 - 07/16/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think BE HERE NOW was completely clear on the question of what are Psychedelics (Mind - Manifesting) philosophically considered. You may not like what Ram Dass'sconclusions were based on the key figure of Neem Karolie Baba, his Guru, but the conclusions were clearly made.

Neem Karolie considered LSD to be a sacrament in the simple meaning that through its incorporation, the Experience showed one "Christ." He was very specific about the Name. He also said that it would be better to Be Christ (a Hindu formulation of what we would say 'Be in Christ') than merely to have Christ's visit. The text opens with THE HEART CAVE, or Hridayam, which takes you immediately to the Hindu version of the Sacred Heart of Christ that is commonly found in Catholic homes.

Neem Karolie also said that materialistic Americans needed a material to come to Christ, so a material materialized, so-to-speak. This happens to be why I became a Christian - it happened to me through LSD, that I awakened to a Conscience that was Higher than my own, and which was so compelling that I trusted in it to guide my life. I didn't know Who or What to call it at first - it took 4 years of seeking - but eventually I decided to receive Baptism in order to manifest to others what my Heart-of-Hearts, my Heart Cave - contained.

So for me, Psychedelics are more - they are truly Entheogens (God-generated-within). Moreso than Bread and Wine by themselves, these substances awakened me to the Eternal Presence that is 'received' in one's Heart Cave. No less than the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist are Entheogens the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. And What/Who is Christ? The Annointed - as with Holy Oil (Chrism) - the symbol of the Spirit of God. And What/Who is the Spirit of God? The Awareness of God that seems to come upon one as a Presence. For God IS Spirit, and Spirit of God would otherwise be redundant. Without our Awareness (Consciousness) of God, God is not Present to us. Awareness or Consciousness of God is what Entheogens are about in the most profound sense - the sacramental (sacred-mind) sense.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleNariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 804
Loc: USA
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1722006 - 07/16/03 05:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

wow that's awesome Markos, thanks for sharing that.


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1722108 - 07/16/03 05:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

it's not that I don't give credence to the whole spiritual trip, it's just that I think it's dishonest to try to wrap yourself up in the guru cloth of authority. I'm of the frim belief that we're all in the trip as equally clueless peers who merely stumble into the cavern of awareness whilst persuing a fixation which has nothing to do with awareness per se. I'm basically saying that our drive to trip isn't a premeditated spiritual journey - it can't be conceptualized beforehand.

like having a child. guys fuck to feel good, never intending to become tied down to a woman and child. it's instict, he just wants to get his hump on. however, whilst experiencing this hump, or after a child is born, etc, it can (and often does) transform into a mystical union, creating bonds where none existed - no exchange or deal making or studying beforehand or even any certifications. the profundity of creating life can't be conceptualized by the pre-father, no matter what people say about understanding the role that they will be undertaking.
hence my statement before, everyone goes into it unintentionally, for kicks, no matter if they justify it by citing a professional or spirtual roadmap.

and no, I don't think that after a certain number of trips you then stop doing it for the pleasure. you just remember the pleasure of whatever it is (juries still out) that happens, and you want to get back to it, but you don't think about it in the same manner as you would while tripping.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Malachi]
    #1722166 - 07/16/03 06:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't lived my life 'unintentionally' for a long, long time. Intentionality is the ONE characteristic of consciousness that all the Existential-Phenomenologists agree upon. They are the 'philosophers of consciousnesss' in the West. Consciousness is always intentional, no matter what it intends to be conscious of.

Neem Karoli was a genuine phenomenon - not a fraud, not a cult leader - the real McCoy. He may well have been living fully in Sat Chit Ananda (Being-Knowledge-Bliss) - the highest state of Samadhi or absorption in God, as described by the Hindu tradition. This is a mystical condition called by other names in other religious frameworks, and often constellates tremendous amounts of synchronistic phenomena around individuals who are so immersed - usually called miracles.

As to your "drive to trip" - I am not motivated to expand by drive-motives. Those motives are embodied in my earth-plane lower centers. Tripping is a decision, a choice, a free-willed, existential expression and not rooted in my more determined nature. I have chosen NOT to procreate in this lifetime, and have been quite intentional about it. I am a philosopher by bent, and I haven't the nervous system for child-rearing. A short-coming perhaps, but not without benefits. Sex has always been foundational, but I have learned to perform the Inner Alchemy and place sex in the service of Love. Sex does not have free-reign as it is blind and stupid. My higher functions determine how, when and with whom it may operate.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1723149 - 07/16/03 11:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

hehehe, sounds like some of you guys haven't been taking your powerful mind tools.

in be here now they implyed that psychedelics were minor tools if at all useful.

i've read lots of other ram dass stuff that doesn't quite say that. but the gist of ram dass's experiances what that psychedelics are mainly just a way to get a single step on the right path.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1723531 - 07/17/03 01:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

the gist of ram dass's experiances what that psychedelics are mainly just a way to get a single step on the right path.




In the case of Ram Dass/Richard Alpert, that single step consisted of six years of heavy tripping in 1961-1967.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1723693 - 07/17/03 02:28 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

a lot of activities can help bring oneself into the fullness of experience. think of activities that can help you let go of the pressures and anxieties of time. think of riding a bike; sitting outside by a warm, cracklingcampfire; floating on your back in the lake on a summer day; or making love by moonlight. the goal of such activities isn't the productivity of the time spent, like when you push yourself hard in the office to take care of responsibilities to free up some time. the emphasis is on enjoying the flow of life, which surrounds you and overwhelms you with its presence. to take a car ride in the country to watch the falling leaves in autumn and listen to the grateful dead versus taking the freeway to get your movies back to the rental store quickly before it's overdue.
if you nourish yourself frequently with these experiences, you'll have the space within them to contemplate, reminesce freely - possibly things you didn't really want to deal with come to surface, but your attitude is no longer a hurry to rid yourself of these issues, you come to care about them.
lsd is a powerful mind-alterning drug, a mental rollercoaster, as a metaphor, if you will. facet water could whizz on by you like the pavement to your feet on a motercylce taking your breath away. things in your life you normally take for granted, like climbing a flight of stairs, now freed of time, seem insanely vivid that you really care about the activity. the preconceived notions of what is trite, things that seemed boring due to repitition (you've climbed that flight of stairs to your apartment hundreds of times), have became living and breathing-- "how foolish i've been to disregard the intricacies of the wood-working on this old table i've had forever all this time!" while ideas, emotions, thoughts, attitudes that truly were trite come to the surface --- as poisonous, noxious, and foul --- your attitude towards doing the dishes was screwed up.... "gee, why do soap bubbles form... anyways?"
when you think about the truth, what is the truth of lsd is doing... your attitude isn't that you're in a hurry to find out because you're in a hurry to get some place with the newly attained knowledge, but rather your attitude is a caring, slow, thurough, curious investigation.
the acid trip isn't totally alienated from you, you feel as if you belong here taking this drug, observing it through experience.

peace & hugs, cj


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1723753 - 07/17/03 02:52 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

it's funny the way channels of common thought flow. your words are quite relevant to me. more and more lately some people come along who have the capacity to impart something deep to me. occasionally, now and then, it's my turn to pass something deep along, perhaps easier among other mediums than the BB.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1724115 - 07/17/03 07:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1724312 - 07/17/03 11:01 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

to mark the gnostic-- don't you think that it's plausible that your certainty or intentionality might be unfounded?

"Consciousness is always intentional, no matter what it intends to be conscious of"

maybe the accruement of consciousness at large can be a intentional act, but not with the satori. hence koans to break you out of your particular fixation. likewise shrooms are the inexpected smack on the head.

"Tripping is a decision, a choice, a free-willed, existential expression and not rooted in my more determined nature"

well, I fail to understand how there can be this seperation between your determined and free willed natures. I do understand how it'd make a person feel more in control if said person where to draw such a line...


socratic ignorance is often the highest wisdom, especially with the shroomies.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1724448 - 07/17/03 12:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Just as the ancient Gnostics saw that people fall into 3 essential spiritual categories, I have come to see the same thing. There are the Hylics, who are so literal and so materially-oriented, that they only believe what their senses tell them.

Then there are the Psychics, those people who believe in powers, ghosts, spirits and who are basically superstitious. When they become Christians, their take on Christianity is colored completely by psychic or soulful considerations. Following rules and regs, mostly from Paul, Psychics believe just as observant Jews of the Old Covenant - adherence to very specific behaviors determines one's faith. They will maintain 'sola fide,' 'by faith alone,' as Paul said, while completely ignoring the fact that Paul had spiritual Experiences before he came to preach on faith. Psychic Christians therefore have little or no spiritual experiences which is Gnosis, and have been told by the author John's treatment of 'doubting Thomas,' that it is more blessed to believe without having seen. This takes us to the last category.

The Pneumatic [spiritual] Christians value direct spiritual experience. John wrote that whole passage that demeaned Thomas, who had to 'see' the Risen Christ before he believed. John said 'You have seen and thus believed - blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.' This was the attitude that won in Christianity because there are many Psychic Christians who have not seen the Resurrected Christ as Paul did, or as any of us have who came away from an experience with the conviction that resulted in our own conversions to Christ. But Pneumatic Christians have experiences of the Sacred - even of Christ. And Christ, dear friends, is not a bearded long-haired carpenter. Christ is the Logos - the aspect of God that 'interfaces' with human beings. The Logos, BY ANY OTHER NAME is still the Logos (which is why Neem Karolie Baba could speak of Christ. He was in Christ, in the Logos, in Sat Chit Ananda which is a philosophical description of being-in-God [Logos]). Being in Christ, in Reality, has little or nothing to do with saying that one is a Christian. ALL true holiness derives from the Logos, and so a Taoist, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Sikh all have different names for this ONE true God - and Gnosis makes this Realization possible. Psychic Christians just cannot bridge the gap between Jesus, and Christ.
Christ is Awareness of God, and Jesus is THE greatest example there is, in the eyes of Christians - but He is not the only example. To see that others have had Jesus's Experience of God, albeit in lesser degree, is Gnosis. Christianity, through John, insists that Jesus is not merely of a higher degree than other humans. John said that Jesus is of a different 'specie.' In other words, for John (unlike Matthew, Mark and Luke), Jesus is not first a human being. Jesus is first, Christ - the Logos clothed in human flesh. So the Gnostic Realization of the Universality of Christ - in people of other faiths, and without the Christian mythos, is just 'wrong view' - in a word - heresy. Oh well. What has Christian exclusivity done to increase brotherly love between faiths? NOTHING. Nothing but condemn others - including their Holy Men and Women.

Psychedelics is a word with a very Psychic overtone. It is obviously about the psyche, the soul, the mind. Entheogens (En=within, theo=God, gen=generated) - God-generated-within does not mean God is created within. The being of a person is changed so that God's Presence is known (Gnosis). It is like the person is a plain bar of iron, oriented North and South, and hammered repeatedly, that plain bar of iron is changed into a magnet with a very discernible magnetic field around it. Now we all exist within the Earth's magnetic field, but we can 'generate' a microcosmic field within the macrocosmic field about the planet, with new properties and powers. Likewise our being on Entheogens. We may Psychically believe that God is omnipresent, but then, with the Entheogen, God manifests in "a superabundance of Reality," which is "the irruption of the sacred into the world" (Mircea Eliade). We don't create the magnetic field, we use knowledge to align the structure of the iron to 'channel' an existing field in a 'superabundant' locus. The same with Entheogens. We don't create God, but we may "occasion" (Huston Smith) a mystical Experience wherein God manifests within our Heart Cave in a 'superabundant' degree.

So, the dictionaries have a new word to learn. My own Webster's Collegiate explains this using the term "acid head," which was a recent acquisition from the colloquial at the time that dictionary was printed. And while we're on the subject...just because the Gospel of Thomas is not in the canonical Bible, it is just ignorant to ignore its take on Who and What Christ is. Christ is not just for 'Christians.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Malachi]
    #1724545 - 07/17/03 12:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)



Aldous Huxley said this simply when he wrote that the human being was "amphibious." He meant that our essential nature, our 'Heart' can be both angel and animal, spiritual and physical. We need not be divided in ourselves, but can work in consonance and be genuinely one in our tripartite nature. The Heart must mediate between our lower and higher natures, bringing our mental and physical natures together in a spiritual whole - neither to become withdrawn from people and the world in emotionless realms of cold Intellectual Light (which would be Luciferian), or to act in the blind, dark, heat of Instinct - in violence and lust and power.

Instinct is determined, but Compassion and Wisdom are not. Instinct is Pre-personal, Impersonal, animal. The Higher Intellect, Wisdom, is Transpersonal, and the Mediating Heart is Personal. The Heart is suspended between Heaven and Earth, and draws from both realms into the specifically Human domain which it symbolizes. We are neither winged cherubic heads, nor centaurs and satyrs - but we are all animals from the belly down. I endeavor to be Heart-Centered at all times - even in the midst of instinctual behavior. Sometimes I must act or speak with authority (power), but I do not forsake Compassion. In the midst of high eroticism and sex, I do not lose my Love in pure lust, my Lady feels the difference and doesn't want to feel like a whore. Even if I was forced to defend myself, I would choose subduing rather than destroying (certainly not into punishing), yet if I had to kill to protect myself or loved ones, it would be the Compassionate thing to protect the innocent from the aggressive. This is what I mean.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,786
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1724558 - 07/17/03 01:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'm with Huxley on this one  :smirk:

Why peer through the window when you can throw the door wide open?

Psychedelics are one of manny keys that fit in the lock we all build ourselves.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1724655 - 07/17/03 02:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1724718 - 07/17/03 02:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

This (G)guy is not your average guy. He's not like anyone. No one else has ever or will ever share His equal identity. Not only because we are all individuals, but because He has something the rest of don't. He who has the anointing oil of God has the very energy of God to transmute and change all things and all people, for better or for worse. He is the Delegate of God, the Sole Representative of the Creator of the Universe whom no one shall ever see with eyes of flesh.




How can you be so sure that some other guy won't have this anointing oil also?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1724804 - 07/17/03 03:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1724842 - 07/17/03 03:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, yes...the Gospel of John...the Logos Incarnate. I said all of that. Jesus was a man according to Mark, Matthew and Luke, Who (and I usually capitalize pronouns re: Christ for respect and reverence) was the Messiah or Christ that Scriptures prophesied. HOWEVER - the Messiah - the Representative of God was NOT THE SAME THING as the Logos Incarnate. These are of two completely different orders of magnitude. To be Annointed was an act that pointed out the Divine Right of Kingship. ALL of the Kings in the OT were referred to as SONS OF GOD. This was NOT a unique title for Jesus of Nazareth. Kings were Kings because they were chosen by God - not because they were elected. Usually a victory over the enemy served to prove the 'might-makes-right' philosophy.

Messiah or Christ is one thing. A Heavenly Being, uniquely 'composed' of God and man, 1) harkens to Hellenistic thought in which God (as Zeus) sometimes impregnated a mortal woman and produced a demigod (Divine and human), so this was NOT an original idea, any more than Son of God was an original idea (these are only seemingly original to Gentiles who know nothing about the OT), and 2) is not a Hebrew idea at all. John was a Hellenized Jew, who combined both Greek ideas and Hebrew ideas. God was YHVH, not Zeus, and Jesus was a mortal, born of a mortal. Of course, the misreading of the word "virgin" which in the original Hebrew that Isaiah wrote was "young woman," only served to reinforce pretty standard mythological themes. And, giving Jesus a miraculous-mythological birth can be found in birth narratives of the historical Buddha as well as other, perhaps more questionably historical people.

By making Jesus the Logos Incarnate, He was categorically removed from all other human beings for ever after. People eventually even came to say of the later tomb narratives that 'Jesus rose from the dead,' which is theologically WRONG. Jesus 'was raised from the dead' by God. Moreover Jesus in NOT God - as evidenced in places ('Why call ye me good? Only God is good.') Rather, 'God was in Christ,' is the correct formulation. It is the words that came from this man Jesus that most defined Him. More than the alleged healings or the alleged miracles (all, I believe are typical embellishments or Hebrew midrash, to bring attention to this man), are the words. So much so, that John called Jesus the Christ THE WORD (another meaning for Logos - the creative energy that proceeds from God, through which non-God, or creation comes about. For centuries different theologians speculated on the composite structure of Jesus's nature, and eventually came up with 'fully God, fully man.' Either that is 200% of something, or it is a paradox - like a koan - which does not have a rational explanation.

No one becomes Jesus, but then no one becomes anyone but who they are. We can be in Christ, but no one who is sane is gonna claim to 'be Christ,' because Christ will always be the title for Jesus of Nazareth. Only the so-called AntiChrist will fool people into believing that he is Christ returned.

Being-in-Christ is basic Pauline theology. If one listens to the words of Paul with belief, then one believes that believers are 'in Christ,' and collectively, everyone in Christ forms 'the Mystical Body of Christ.' It is tough to talk about this without recourse to Trinitarian theology, but this is not fair because Trinitarian though is a 2nd century invention by Tertullian, who later became a Montanist Christian and was himself condemned as a heretic. To be really real, one must abandon Trinitarian theology because it is a late invention, and neither Jesus or his friends ever heard of such a thing. Neither would Jesus ever have told miraculous birth narratives about His mother Miriam (His brother James, for example, already had difficulty with his older brother being called Messiah. Saying that He was born of a virgin would have meant that Mom probably liked Him better). John has SO influenced, nay, brainwashed so many uncritical readers of the Bible, that no growth has taken place within the established doctrine. Nor could it! Any growth would mean change from dogma - and that would be heretical.

Putting Jesus on a pedestal is what most people do. They aren't interested in 'Being in Christ,' they just point to spiritual perfection outside of themselves, and never ask how that is gonna change them any. But, of course, most people don't want to change interiorly. It's not hip[hop], or sexy, or worldly to 'become as little children.' It's not cool to be warm, it's cool to be cold, to be violent, to be a pimp, to flaunt wealth for frivolous and stupid motives. So, if you want to keep putting Jesus the Christ in an ontological status that is SO different from us monkeys - you're gonna be hard-pressed to Experience His Presence within yourself. Keep pointing to the Man, the carpenter, out there in ancient history, long gone, and you're not gonna Experience the Eternal Christ here and Now - where it counts for you and me.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 18 days, 13 hours
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1724919 - 07/17/03 03:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

if we try to examine the jewish massiach, and the christian christos, in light of other mythological manifestations of divinity, and sources of mystery, and the incarnation of god into man, and the dying and resurrected savior-figure, the crucified redeemer god/man...
we will quite possibly see that this story has been told time and again throughout the histroy of mankind (and quite probably pre-history as well...)
of course if mainstream christians are even willing to acknowledge that this story has been told before, they will say at best these "pagan" myths are at best pre-shadowings of jesus' true gospel, and at worst snares for the unwary set by satan...
again, it is possible to see christianity as a way (perhaps for many, the best way) to realize the presence of god, but not the way (the one and only way) for everyone on this world of seeking humans...
ymmv...
~
shalom
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1724924 - 07/17/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1724999 - 07/17/03 04:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
Jesus was careful NOT to call Himself God or Christ for a reason. Not only does it add style to His already awesome presence, it kept Him in double overtime from getting killed.




It adds style to his presence? I think that Christ wouldn't be concerned with his style.... and, as far as I remember from Sunday School, Chuch, and Confirmation, didn't Jesus get killed in double overtime?

Quote:

Enter said:
What do we presently have to work with when conversing about this subject? Really only two things: Personal experience (which is ineffable for the most part), and other people's words throughout history.




Okay, so we can't use personal experience, becuase it is ineffable for the most part. However, that leaves us with the only option of using other people's personal experience? Um, other people's words are validated because we read them? Because that is what you are saying, right there. Tell me that that is not what you are saying, because it is. What else do you mean? I mean, I guess I can't trust myself, because there is personal experience involved, and that is ineffable. Tell me what you mean by what you said, and publish it in a book. That way, fifty years from now, someone can read your book, and now that it is the Validated Truth; that they know they can't trust their own judgement based on personal experience, because it is ineffable, but they can trust your judgement, because it was recorded some previous time in history.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1725411 - 07/17/03 06:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The rich man may well have recognized the Truth of what Jesus was saying to him, but he did not have the faith to give away all of his possessions. Those insertions about 'who do you say I am,' are probably insertions by the Gospel authors, firstly, because it is decidedly unclear to what extent Jesus thought about his identity. Greek icons paint baby Jesus's with adult facial expressions to symbolize the Self-Conscious identity of Christ even from the womb. Of course, the Johannine Christians maintain that Jesus is the Logos-clothed-in-flesh rather than just the promised Messiah, as in the synoptic Gospels. Parallels have been drawn between Jesus and a contempoary teacher - Hillel. Jesus, being a real human being, was to some extent knowledgable about the 3 main Jewish sects: Pharisees, Saducees and Essenes, and was influenced by them. This is not mere speculation. He wasn't born with knowledge, he learned. What history and the Gospel writers have made him out to be is what you and most other Christians take for granted. It was Irenaeus who pretty much single-handedly decided that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John should be the four pillars of the Gospel BECAUSE (he wrote) there are 4 corners of the world, and 4 winds upon the Earth!!!

Imagine if you and me and all Christians have to question what Irenaeus's whole agenda was. I'm reading Elaine Pagels now, and she is explaining exactly what we know from his writings WHY the NT was selected in its canonical form. Going back even further, J.S. Spong gives very very reasonable descriptions and explanations about how the writngs were composed originally to correspond with the Jewish calendar of holidays; that the Gospels were essentially written to both parallel the OT with new characters, and just as importantly, to fill in all those little detailed events, say, from the suffering servant literature of Isaiah 53 that talks of being striped for our iniquities, but no bones broken. Or the virgin from Bethlehem that most scholars realize was misinterpreted - YES - misinterpreted by Matthew, from the Septuigint (Greek OT) instead of going back to the Hebrew original which said 'almah' (young woman) not 'bertolah' (virgin) - and which the Greek language had only one word - parthenos - which meant both. Two millennia of virgin birth, virginity as a way of life - celibacy, nuns, monks, monasticism (monos=alone).

Ultimately, we are all forced to rely on the Word in Spirit, rather than the Word in letter, because the writings are not reliable. I have seen things YOUR way, so do not trouble yourself to convince me. I was surrounded by theology and Bible professors for 2 solid years about the time you were being born. My faith has not fallen away, it has, like me, matured. The miracles used to be like dessert, if I finished all the dry tasteless stuff. Now, I do not need miracle stories to keep me interested. The Reality of God runs through my entire waking/dreaming existence. It is ALL tastey because I require the Truth more than ever, and midrashic fairytales, floating ascensions, levitating, walking-on-water, materializations out of thin air - all midrashic indicators of 'specialness' have done their job. I noticed and believed in His Words. Now His Words are in me and part of me. I could no sooner ignore them, than ignore my conscience, my values and my behaviors.

Am I gonna regress to an earlier, less mature point of view? No. If anyone is gonna change, it's gonna be YOU, as you mature - as you talk about it less, and BE it more, you get closer to It. Remember the wind and the sun competing to see which one could get a man to take his coat off more quickly? The wind blew and blew and blew and the man simply clutched his coat tighter and tighter to himself. The sun took his turn, and simply glowed brightly, quietly, constantly. The man became warmer and warmer and removed his covering all by himself.
Let us shine on.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: World Spirit]
    #1726785 - 07/18/03 03:05 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notice too please that His believers did not say "we have all become Christ" but instead said to Jesus, "You are the Christ." Some disciples took longer than others to finally confess.




Notice also that none of the gospels claim that there can only be one Son of God. John is the only one who uses the phrase "only begotten Son", but even John seems to have no problem with the existence of multiple sons of God:

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name;

And in the gospel of Luke it is stated by Jesus that dead people are the children of God:

Luke 20:36
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke also explicitly mentions another Son of God who is not Jesus:

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Since the doctrine of exclusiveness has caused so much death and pain over the years, I find it hard to believe that Jesus would have approved of it. It's so out of character.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 8 months, 24 days
Re: Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1727194 - 07/18/03 10:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Bad Boy Rhizoid ! How dare you point out difficult inconsistencies in common Christian 'thought,' er, 'doctrine,' er, um, indoctrination !!! You are suggesting that we monkeys actually, ACTUALLY and REALLY have a God-given right to think of ourselves as Children of God! Now THAT is a spiritual responsibility - to remain in remembrance of this continually, I mean. Well, I can handle being a Son [male child] of God, but I'm glad that I'm not THE Son of God. I rather like it that Jesus has that designation. I believe that He was an infinitely better choice than I would have been.

And yes, I agree with you. Jesus emptied himself of any self-consciousness that He was THE Son of God (His exclusiveness). A person can't be walking around thinking, 'Hey...I created this whole flat world, and the dome of Heaven, and Sheol. I wonder why I can't remember how or why.' Of course, that would be talking about Jesus's ego, not His Eternal Godhead ('I AM'), and that would be saying that the Creator (the 'Father') was walking around, like in Genesis.

It's just poignant that humans are compelled to attempt to comprehend rationally, objects of thought that will forever remain incomprehensible and Mysteries. Elaborate theologies, many of which I have read, have been carefully constructed to EXPLAIN That which is inexplicable because it is Transcendental and Transrational - transcending the rational mind. The ONLY thing believers are to do is to Love. This act alone demonstrates faith AND true gnosis.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Is a massive LSD trip in order?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Tasty_Smurf_House 5,337 61 09/27/03 10:26 PM
by CosmicJoke
* ESSAY:Psychedelic induced mystical experiences by Alan Watts tekramrepus 2,403 6 03/21/03 01:43 PM
by pattern
* Ram Dass --death and dying Hermes_br 1,527 2 11/23/02 07:52 AM
by Hermes_br
* What is the Truth?
( 1 2 3 all )
andrash 3,446 43 01/24/03 05:42 PM
by Anonymous
* The Four Noble Truths MiddlemanM 1,227 6 06/03/02 11:47 PM
by Swami
* Al Haq (The Truth)
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Zahid 6,391 60 08/24/02 05:17 PM
by Danimal
* does a "Bad experience" make subsequent exps. bad? xfluffybunnyx 1,258 9 11/14/02 09:46 PM
by Strumpling
* Entheogens and Soul Crotalus 1,159 4 06/13/03 06:44 PM
by Crotalus

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
4,042 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.06 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 16 queries.