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How to deal with this?
    #3457197 -

During my most recent psychonautic adventure I came face to face with the Void. The Void, the Cosmic Horror, the Nothingness. Whatever you want to call it.

Those who've experienced it (hopefully) know what I'm talking about. For those who aren't sure what I mean, let me describe what I felt: It was like transcendence, transcendence of the material world anyway, and you can almost "see" the universe as this meaningless little speck of dust sitting in a vast ocean of NOTHINGNESS. There's just... nothing there. The world I know, the universe around me that, when sober, seems so immense and complex, now seems like a dumb little joke to keep our consciousness occupied so it doesn't ask questions about "what else" there might be. Because, there is nothing else. There is just this universe. And even though it's so vast and amazing in my sober mind, in the mindstate I was in, it seemed so puny, simple, and insignificant. It was like a toy ball to keep a toddler amused compared to what my mind craved to experience. Basically, I wanted MORE... but there was nothing else there.

This was the single most horrifying and depressing thing I've ever experienced. It's been discussed here in past threads but nobody mentioned how they've dealt with it.

Was this just a trick of my ego (which I still had full contact with) or is there really nothing else to this world? Is this it? Is that all?

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3457274 -

get used to it

and love it with all your Being

(no need to decieve)

:cool:


The reason it caused of reaction of fear is based around prior false expectations of existance. You assumed meaning, assumed purpose, assumed concrete form. (rather I assume you did :wink:)

Void is beautiful, it's just a shock for the ego's false expectations

dig dig dig and become the void itself, as you are the void, unaware


--------------------


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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3459052 -

As for the FEELING of the Cosmic Horror, there is really not much you can do but experience it. I am sure that the Horror of it comes from the ego, ego+void=the darkest pit of hell. The good news is that because it stems from the ego, the feeling will ebb and flow...it will not last forever.

As I mentioned in the earlier thread, the only way to find real release is to abandon the ego. Of course this is easier said than done. In the meantime I have found it helpful to try to realize that this experience is not the highest truth. It is very close, but it isn't the absolute state of existence. So long as there is an 'I' experiencing and suffering in the void, the final realization is still waiting to be discovered. Try to keep that in mind...it will help to ease the pain.

Now that you have tasted of the absolute despair of the ego, you have the opportunity to realize why you must drop it. The hotter the fire, the more desperate you will be to escape. Use the agony to propel yourself to the highest realization. Find a non-dual spiritual path. Forget about astral stuff, you are past it. Now you must reconcile the final duality. The agony stems from the 'causal plane' so the remedy must target where you are. Practice methods that will help you to realize yourself as pure awareness devoid of self...Zen, Dzogchen or Advaita Vedanta are good places to start.

Remember, this is where you are headed...

"...See the Kosmos dance in Emptiness; see the play of light in all creatures great and small; see finite worlds sing and rejoice in the play of the very Divine, floating on a Glory that renders each transparent, flooded by a joy that refuses time or terror, that undoes the madness of the loveless self and buries it in splendor

...let the self-contraction relax into the empty ground of its own awareness, and let it there quietly die. See the Kosmos arise in its place, dancing madly and divine, self-luminous and self-liberating, intoxicated by a light that never dawns nor ceases. See the worlds arise and fall, never caught in time or turmoil, transparent images shimmering in the radiant Abyss...blink and a billion universes rise and fall, breath out and create a Kosmos, breath in and watch it disolve.

Let the ecstasy overflow and outshine the loveless self, driven mad with torments of its self-embracing ways, hugging mightiliy samsara's spokes of endless agony, and sing instead triumphantly with Saint Catherine, "My being is God"..."

---Ken Wilber, (Sex, Ecology, Spirituality 522-23)

As a final note, I know exactly what you are feeling. I know it is horrible beyond words. I know you feel alone. I know because I am there with you. And I know that YOU WILL find release into the ecstacy of truth.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: Source]
    #3459078 -

from a mystical perspective you have encounterd daath, the chasm, the void. all mystical seekers come upon it at one time or another.

All i know is that on the other side of it GOD awaits.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3459122 -

Indeed  :thumbup:


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3459200 -

Here is my take on it:

That "negative space" you encountered (the nothing) is only interpretted as "nothing" by the ego. If you can let go of your ego (ie, let go of your pre-conceived notions of how things should be and your pre-conceived notions of how to interpret the situation--to NOT interpret the situation, basically) the result is a peaceful bliss. Suddenly this nothing, it becomes something, because you allow it to flow through you instead of clinging to it and trying to label or identify it. Just allow it to be, and allow your experience of it to be uninhibited by meaning, which is just a tool of the ego.

The nothing, this "cosmic horror" is only horrible until you release your ego and allow yourself to fall through it freely. Then it IS god. It is the source of energy that makes us all alive.

Release the notion that non-existance is BAD.

I think that a fear of "the nothing" stems from a fear of death. If you fear non-existance (the possible outcome of death) then you will fear the non-existance that that is outside of existance.

Accept yourself as mortal, and accept that one day you will be reunited with this so-called "cosmic horror".. this "nothing"... accept that one day you will BE nothing. And suddenly it will all fall into place.

One must transcend the need to comprehend what they experience, and just experience it.

If you can do this, as Moonshoe said, GOD truly awaits on the other side. God is the source of all energy. And you will feel this incredible energy flow through you if you can truly let go of the need to justify, comprehend, or label what you are experiencing.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: Source]
    #3459231 -

Source said:
So long as there is an 'I' experiencing and suffering in the void, the final realization is still waiting to be discovered.

Now that you have tasted of the absolute despair of the ego, you have the opportunity to realize why you must drop it.  The hotter the fire, the more desperate you will be to escape.  Use the agony to propel yourself to the highest realization.



:thumbup:

Max, you must realize that the only reason you experienced it as a horror was because "you" (your ego) was still there to experience it. If you release the NEED we each feel to justify and rationalize what we experience, you will release your ego and you will find the bliss that exists on the other side.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3459252 -

i agree that this is an attitude thing which has flared up via
mind frame stacking and
synaesthesia
into a wall of insignificance. or into a black pit of minimization.

the seeds of it were:
logic
a sprinking of physics
images of galaxies
thoughts of the brevity of life
a sprinkling of metaphysics
body sensation and tensing up.


once it gets going just got to go with the flow, it's like OCD -
not a bad thing, and as some have said if you can relax through it the other side is quite marvellous.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3459402 -

Thanks for all your replies.

So I guess the problem, which I have suspected, is my ego. It was strange that during the experience I felt like I was really about to die*, but "I" wasn't going to let that happen. I thought I was really dying, and the only reason I didn't let go is because I kept thinking that people needed me here (on this plane). And that if I "went away" my friends and family would be angry or upset at me for dying. Karmic debts? :crazy: So I guess I was on the verge of ego loss but I wasn't letting it happen? Apparently I have issues with death that I need to work out, as a couple of you implied.

Well I'm gonna think this over for a few weeks, maybe try to start meditating, and then give it another try in a month or two and see if I can just let go next time it happens.

* I've realized now that the feeling of death and ego loss are one and the same. This is why the Tibetan Book of the Dead so accurately describes the process of ego loss. I suspect that at physical death, the actual feeling of dying is only your ego dying, and that you don't "feel" your body die except for any physical pain or numbness.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: ]
    #3459563 -

Yes Max, I think you are definitly on the right track. It DEFINITELY feels like you're going to actually die if you "let go"... but this is the ego's trickery. The ego tricks you into identifying "it" as "you". Once this happens, you are stuck identifying a loss of ego as being physical death... but there is a world of difference. So when you say "I" you are referring to your ego. "I am going to die." Your ego is going to die.

You must have faith that you are not your ego. Your ego is a part of "you", but it is not the whole you.

If you can approach the void with this attitude, you will truly meet your maker--and I don't mean you are going to die. :wink:

P.S. I am really glad to see you have this open attitude towards the situation, even after having experienced it as a bad thing. Many people experience a "bad trip" and mentally close the doors, marking it as a danger zone in their minds.. it's critically important to remain open-minded towards the situation if you want to transcend it and truly find the incredible awe that is on the other side of this boundary of dualistic thinking.

There is no good, there is no bad. There just is. :smile: And with that, the waters still and the lack of commotion is peaceful. Now, if peace of mind is a good thing to you, then it is something to strive for from the dualistic point of view... it gets a little confusing, because people think "well if I transcend duality it's not good OR bad, so how can it be good?"  But the result is peace of mind. And if you like peace, then it IS good despite being nothing at all.

The idea that all things are inherently meaningless can be frightening, because it shatters what you've come to know as meaningful. However, the part that is easily overlooked is that once everything is revealed as meaningless, you are given a clean slate. A blank canvas. And there is nothing more beautiful to a creative person than a blank canvas. Your mind is renewed, and you are free to rebuild your ego on a more solid basis than it previously was built.

The ego is a necessity for living, and therefore we shouldn't strive to eliminate it, but strive to rebuild it in a manner that we feel is more useful and less controlling of us.

As Brandon Boyd of Incubus says, "Why not try and make yourself?"

This is what he is referring to.

It is ALSO what Christians refer to as being "born again". Because your ego is reborn.

The critical importance of this rebirth is that you get to rebuild your ego with all the knowledge that your brain has collected for years.

For instance:

Say that during your childhood you developed a fear of what others thought of you. (this is very common.)

Then one day you realize that it really doesn't MATTER what others think of you... BUT, you still feel an impulsive need to analyze your actions and words and check them for the possibility of offending others' opinions of you.

By the process of rebirth of the ego, these impulsive actions can be reduced. Not necessarily eliminated completely, but DEFINITELY reduced drastically. This is because as you rebuild your ego you are objectively and logically choosing which processes are logical and which are irrational.

This is what the after-glow of a phenomenal trip truly is. It is the rebuilding time. This is why it is just as critically important to have free time to sit and ponder on what you've experienced after the event as it is to actually experience the event in the first place.

I love to talk about this stuff, so if you're interested in chatting about it more privately feel free to PM me. :smile:

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460012 -

Nice post Jacques!  :thumbup:

Question: It seems to me like this ego-rebirth is only possible through long years of meditation or  by doing psychedelics. I've never personally gone through such an experience (but your post did an amazing job at getting an idea of how it feels like) but in what way would you say the Christian succeeds in it? Is it the power of faith or something like that? Are there any other examples that you can think of that imply "rebirth of ego"?


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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: exclusive58]
    #3460087 -

exclusive58 said:
Nice post Jacques!  :thumbup:

Question: It seems to me like this ego-rebirth is only possible through long years of meditation or  by doing psychedelics. I've never personally gone through such an experience (but your post did an amazing job at getting an idea of how it feels like) but in what way would you say the Christian succeeds in it? Is it the power of faith or something like that? Are there any other examples that you can think of that imply "rebirth of ego"?


Well, I don't think all self-proclaimed Christians succeed in it, but I do believe that many Christians have learned to attain a state of no-mind (ie, turning the ego off temporarily) by way of faith and prayer. I believe prayer to be very similar to meditation. (This is why you always hear Christians saying it takes a lot of perserverance of prayer before you actually see results.)

If the process is uncovered by revelatory thought via meditation (ie, realization leading to transcendance of previously accepted truths) then the same can be achieved via prayer.

The critical difference is that (to me!) Christianity does not reveal the literal and logical truth behind the matter. It leads to the same state through faith, but once achieved it cannot be explained logically to someone outside of that faith.

This is why I see Christianity as useful, but still flawed. It is useful in the sense that if you are lucky enough to stumble into it the right way, you will find peace of mind in it.. but if you are an objective thinker and you cannot convince yourself to take a leap of faith, you cannot see what a Christian tries to convey.

Through use of psychedelics one is basically FORCED to take a leap of faith in the process of releasing their ego (which they have come to identify as "I" or their self) and believing that something will save them from death in the process.

The process of ego loss, for this reason, relates DIRECTLY to Christianity's rebirth concept. To actually achieve ego loss, one must let go. One must have faith that when they stop thinking, they will keep breathing and will not perish. This is faith in god manifested in what feels like a very literal and REAL situation. You are fully exposed to the void, and you are fully vulnerable. And there is only one way out: jump in.

It is like climbing to the top of the scariest waterslide ever with a line of pushy kids behind you. Once you're up there, there's only one way down, and it isn't the ladder. You have to have faith that your fears are unfounded and irrational, and that you will safely slide to the bottom unscathed.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460198 -

why is non-existance seen as 'bad'?

and who's left to label it as such?  :confused:


--------------------


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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460216 -

You make things very clear and easy to understand, I appreciate this quality very much. Translating thoughts can get difficult for me some times

So are you familiar with any other ways that lead to the rebirth of the ego? Not that it bothers me to ingest many grams of shrooms to get to it, but it bothers me that my only other option so far is to meditate for many years or to blindly put my faith in Christianity (btw I agree with you that Christianity is useful but flawed)...

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: exclusive58]
    #3460277 -

it is easy
relax and let go
don't try to stay,
but don't try to return
just be unbeing :smile:

You are probably looking for practical instruction, but this misses the point. You need NOTHING to be NOTHING. It is already this way, eternally, to experience it requires that you realize yourself AS nothing. This is not some external nothingness to yourself, it is forever all-inclusive, you are a mere abstract of this infinite void.

thinking it is hard makes it hard.

forget language, logic, 'reason', emotions, and most importantly Self

and slide into it :smile:

(no mushrooms needed...)


--------------------


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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: exclusive58]
    #3460364 -

Well see... the common misconception of meditation is that it is something that you must "do".

The thing is, you can meditate while doing anything. To do so, simply put your full concentration into what you are doing. Do not think about something else while you're doing it... only allow thoughts that pertain to what you are doing. If you can do this with something to the point that you have no need for thought while doing it, the next step is to silence the mind all together while doing these things.

Meditation is not a chore, it is a lifestyle. This is an important distinction. "I have to meditate for many years" views it as a chore. If you acknowledge it as a logical procedure that leads to control of your ego (instead of your ego controlling you) it becomes an invaluable asset. If you can start acting upon that notion, you will start to see the product of it in the form of a lack of stress.

It is hard to pick up on a "lack of" anything, and this is why it is so hard to grasp the concept in the first place. When you are doing it, you won't know you're doing it until after you've finished doing it and your internal monologue returns.

So then, since it is hard to pick up on it working WHEN it is working, one should instead look for the productive results that it manifests, which is less tension, less stress, and more peace of mind.

It all comes down to one thing: awareness.

Be the observer. Observe your own thoughts at all times.

If you can keep yourself aware of your own thought patterns all the times, you can stop yourself when you realize that you are thinking something irrational and egoic.

Awareness combined with RATIONAL thought allows a critical balance that keeps itself in check. Your awareness keeps an eye on your thoughts so that you know when you're being irrational... and when you pick up on something that you think is irrational, your logical mind can "talk you out of it".

For instance:

Say I'm driving down the road and someone cuts me off. At first, tension mounts... I feel agitated that someone decided they were more important than me.

But then I think to myself, "There is no benefit at all to me being irritated by this situation. The only result is a negative one: I end up more stressed out and in a sour mood." At this point of acknowledgement of my own falling I can step back and acknowledge that those negative thoughts ("What an asshole!") stem from my ego, and that they are completely unnecessary.

The result is that I completely acknowledge and accept that not only a) there is no reason to be upset, but b) my perspective has transcended my ego and now have a higher perspective than I did a moment before--which is a joyful thing.

---

Now, you ask me if there are other ways... sure, there are other ways, but here is the real important part: they are all the same way.

Every way that works is essentially a form of meditation, of quieting the mind. It is impossible to transcend the ego when the ego is going off like a roman candle, shoving all kinds of thoughts into your head.

To see past the ego, one must first "lock on" to their ego. Then they can learn to control it.

Did you see the Matrix trilogy? The core meaning of those films (despite the fact that they slaughtered it with money-making schemes) is of transcendance of duality.

Neo and Mr. Smith.. "we are the same" as Mr. Smith would put it. Mr. Smith was the ego to Neo's self.

Now.. at the end of the third movie, Neo allows the machines to use him as a means to "lock on" to Mr. Smith so that they could delete him, because he was just "a virus." Right?

Are you seeing the pattern this creates? In order to eliminate your ego, you must first lock onto it. When you have fully identified and "locked on" to your ego, you then "beat" your ego SOLELY by holding a perspective "higher above" the ego. This is what transcendence IS. To move past, to see past.

Dictionary.com defines "transcend" as "To pass beyond the limits of."

The key to ego transcendence is just that--to see past and therefore move past the limitations of the ego.

The instant they had a lock on Mr. Smith, he was easily deleted. The metaphor works this way, because all it takes to transcend the ego is to find a perspective that is beyond the dualistic mind of the ego.

I hope this is sounding logical, because it is really hard to relate these concepts understandably.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460379 -

HUm............. This is a bunch of delusional drug takers and trying to understand a trip. This is not Spiritual, it is trying to figure out a trip on DRUGS.

This is a very fine example of Drug induced DISILLUSIONMENT

Here is a eye opener for you.............. You guys are stoned


:lol:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: deff]
    #3460381 -

Deff, do you remember what it is like to be on the other side of the boundary of ego, and to not know what it is like beyond?

I remember. And this is why I use practical logical conversation to try to explain it to people.

I remember hearing people say "just be unbeing" and let me tell you, that is the BIGGEST FUCKING TURN OFF to wanting to listen to that person anymore. You're just like "Okay, THAT HELPS." and you walk away.

Logical explanation is the only way you will ever get through to someone. It's easy to put it so simply when you've already seen the other side.

It's like philosophical quotes. They are incredibly deep and meaningful for someone who has an experience to attach it to, but they are completely meaningLESS to someone who does not.

Logic is the bridge that must be used in order to show people how this works. You cannot just say "Just be unbeing" and expect anyone who actually needs to hear it to GRASP it.

Edited by JacquesCousteau (12/07/04 03:40 PM)

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3460391 -

Post deleted, I overreacted apparently.  :rolleyes:

Edited by JacquesCousteau (12/07/04 03:39 PM)

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Re: How to deal with this? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3460402 -

I somehow knew that is exactly what someone would say.

IT WAS A JOKE MAKING FUN OF HOW MUCH FUN SOME OF YOU POKE AT MY BELIEFS.................

Goes to show how sensitive some of you are and how very hypocritical all humans can be

In many way we are all exactly the same. Christian and non-christian alike

I was hoping you might have seen what I was doing but I guess not. :nonono:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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