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Offlinedmtrypr
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M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) (now with cool new pictures)
    #3386578 - 11/19/04 11:14 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

While I was harvesting some of my newest crop today I began to think about the results of my endeavors.  I am growing the same strain (tampa bay, Fl & all originally from the same spawn) in three different conditions.  I have 2 in traditional casings (perlite and cow manure compost), 1 uncased (spawn mixed with compost and a little verm), and one outdoor. 

While some might say that it should be expected that the mushrooms that came out of each one are dramatically different, I don't know if that is the whole story.  The outdoor variety are similar to all outdoor mushrooms that I have grown.  All have been very thick, with meaty stems and caps, but short. The casings have lids on them about 4 1/2 in. from the surface of the casing and all the mushrooms growing out of them are significantly smaller and actually fit inside the lids w/o ever touching the tops.  The uncased variety is in a 5 gal bucket with a piece of plexiglass over it.  In this container the mushrooms are long, thin, but several times bigger than those w/ more confining lids and much much taller than those outdoors.

What I think is weird, is that these differences are huge.  They really could pass for different species if you didn't know they were genetically identical.  The pins come out allready looking similar to how they would when they mature, so apparently this is a decision somehow made by the mycelia before the fruits actually grown.  This leads me to believe that the mushroom "plant" is very aware of its surroundings. 

This "awareness", coupled with the fact that mushrooms are not your run of the mill forest product seem to point to a real intelligence about these creatures.  I honestly look at them as advanced life forms and treat them with much respect.  Never will I simply throw away living mycelia, Ibury it outside, (thus the previously mentioned outdoor patch), giving it an opportunity for continued life in a natural environment.

Just the effects of eating mushrooms seem to point to their possesing of a higher state.  If we think we feel crazy experiencing psilocybin only temporarily, what must it be like to be saturated constantly with it.  Perhaps (relating to my "spirituality and diet" thread) the actual mushroom energetic vibration, or essence is what makes us trip.  A lot of people claim to trip much harder off of fresh shrooms (I know I do), maybe there is more to the mushroom than a single active ingredient. 

Anyway, these are just my thoughts.  I would like hearing if anyone else has thought about mushroom awareness, or the "consciousness" of psilocybes.

P.S.  I will be adding pictures soon, just too tired at the moment to upload from camera.  I'll take care of it tomorrow.  They show the different varieties of mushrooms very well, and may help clarify what the heck I am ranting about! :crazy2:


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"There is no greater power in heaven and earth than the thought of the son of man. Though unseen by the eyes of the body,yet each thought has mighty strength, even such strength can shake the heavens." -Gospel of the Essenes


Edited by dmtrypr (11/20/04 04:48 PM)


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OfflineBanJankri
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3386956 - 11/20/04 01:17 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

doesnt mckenna also advocate mushroomsbeing a intelligent life form?

anyway, maybe he doesnt, nice thoughts :smile: you have raised some interesting points.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3387127 - 11/20/04 02:11 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The pins come out allready looking similar to how they would when they mature
Just like all other life forms...

this is a decision somehow made by the mycelia before the fruits actually grown. This leads me to believe that the mushroom "plant" is very aware of its surroundings.
What? I don't understand your reasoning. The mushrooms make decisions? Please explain yourself.

mushrooms are not your run of the mill forest product seem to point to a real intelligence about these creatures.
mushrooms are the ultimate run of the mill forest product. Any decaying plant matter will have mycelium growing through it, which accounts for pretty much the entire forest floor. Under the soil is a continuous carpet of mycelium. It's everywhere.

possesing of a higher state.
Don't even pretend you think you're communicating anything with a statement like this.

the actual mushroom energetic vibration, or essence is what makes us trip. A lot of people claim to trip much harder off of fresh shrooms (I know I do), maybe there is more to the mushroom than a single active ingredient.
Haha nope. There actually is one key ingredient with tiny trace amounts of other tryptamines that you don't need to bother with. Straight up psilocin and mushrooms are indistinguishable as a drug trip. Fresh mushrooms would have a higher psilocin content for sure, and probably more psilocybin as well.

With the above I'm picking through what you wrote and highlighting some of my problems with it. I suggest arranging your thoughts in a more accessible way, maybe starting with a thesis statement like you think mushrooms are intelligent life forms and then back it up with whatever experiement you half-heartedly explained concerning the shape and size of the mushies you grew. To me you're making giant silly leaps coming from a place of dissatisfaction with reality.

Explaining how you reach your conclusions with a little more detail would help, cause I can't follow your thoughts as they're written.

banjraki: Terence once explained the mushroom's situation by quoting the mushroom voice in his head. "I require the nervous system of a mammal, do you have one handy?" Basically saying that the mushroom was a conscious entity without the biological hardware capable of experiencing itself. The fact that the mushroom doesn't have the synapses that allow psilocin to act doesn't discourage dmtrypr from speculating that the mushroom experiences some whacky shit, but.. it keeps me away from entertaining those kind of ideas. I imagine the psilocin floating around in its system is actually very mundane to the mushroom.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3387426 - 11/20/04 03:31 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Your talking as if you know that all there is in this world is the physical.

What gave the mycelium life???

Life is fighting to exist! This entire planet is living. Nobody can therefore justify one way or the other wether the mushroom has SOUL!!!

Oh and what about baeocystin? This is different from psilocin.


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OfflineTag_Number
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3387524 - 11/20/04 03:58 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I do think magic mushrooms are some kind device of the non-local cosmos.
Like put as a key and you can take it if you want. They are all through-out space. It is a device or tool for realization and a door way. But no one really knows where. But only with the mushrooms.


Edited by Tag_Number (11/20/04 04:34 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: Ego Death]
    #3387745 - 11/20/04 05:05 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

What gave the mycelium life???

Yeah, come on Mix. Explain that one will, ya?  :smirk:


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Offlinerepemon
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: Swami]
    #3388251 - 11/20/04 09:50 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

On one mushie trip (bad one aye :laugh: ) I became a god in my head, then I realized I couldnt be a god outside my own head, so I was my own god, then I realized that Im insane, then I realized I can be sane and insane at the same time if I say a keyword. I fighted for 5-10min? to say this single word, Amanita Muscaria, (k?rp?ssieni in finnish) , and after I said it, all bad aspects bout my trip ended.

The funny thing was that at this moment I didnt really know which word I was looking for, like I was just gathering letters from air to form a sentence, and mushroom just eventually popped out :laugh: And at that single moment of bliss, truth, clarity, extacy and everything that lasted for eternity I also felt my long journey as a soul (and I think I saw something to be described as past lifes) and actually felt some ancient vibes also. (Ancient vibes? ;D) 

But, all in all, all can be put in a single word: mushroom


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OfflineGomp
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: repemon]
    #3388270 - 11/20/04 10:03 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

read somewhere, that some (mushroom) 'myselie', grew the shortest way through a labyrinth to find neutrinos or something ;D


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Offlinedmtrypr
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3388773 - 11/20/04 01:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

LOL, this IS the "Spirituality and Philosophy" board isn't it?  Perhaps if it was called something like "Science and Empirical Evidence" I would feel compelled to cater to Mix's need for "hard" facts.  As it stands, however, this is not a science discussion.:biggrin:

Science concerns itself with the base physical and measurable aspects of creation.  If you want a purely scientific discussion, look somewhere else.  On a purely scientific level "Yes, I agree mushrooms lack a nervous system, and to the scientific establishment this means they also lack perceptual capabilities, consciousness, and intelligence."

Now for those who aren't trapped "in the box", or bound by things like "evidence", here are the pictures I promised you...

Here are the ones from the traditional casings...


Here are the shrooms from the uncased spawn..


And here are the outdoor caps...


Finally, this is them all together...


The point of this thread was simply to get some thoughts out there about the potential for mushrooms having an awareness of their own, my "evidence" was the dramatically different fruits which somehow fit their environments even though the basic conditions and strain were the identical.  Having said this, conclusions are left to be drawn by each individual.

The mushrooms that I am talking about are psilocybes.  I can't think of many other "run of the mill" forest products that also happen to contain chemistry that is almost identical to those in our brains, and when consumed create altered states of perception, consciousness, and sometimes giving way to mystical experiences.

It's hard to grow them(mushies) and come to the conclussion that they are lacking any sort of awareness.  Someone even wrote in a thread on another board that mushrooms are "shy".  Whether or not everybody feels this way, this is just an example of personality traits being ascribed to the mushroom.  Just as we are "human" beings, they are "mushroom" beings. 

IMHO, there are just certain individuals who are more open to all of life's multi-dimensional qualities than others.  Those who are closed off, limit themselves(via free will) to all but a few levels of experience.  Perhaps those who do recognize the "life" inherent in all things are those who have lived more lifetimes, and are less "new" at this whole game.  Whether or not empiricists like to admit it, they cannot prove anything but that certain conditions(or causes) are correlated to certain outcomes (or effects).  This is far from "proof" or true causation. 

While it makes sense for them to demand of the mystic the same sort of correlary "evidence" that they themselves need, the mystic knows that this is a futile gesture.  The multiplicity of life has to be experienced to truly be "known".  Wisdom and information are totally different animals.  One can have all the information in the world while simultaneously knowing nothing at all.

P.S.  Mix, I am not "pretending" to be communicating with you.  I KNOW I am not communicating with you, and a reaction such as yours has to be expected when posting things such as this.  You rejection of my thoughts leads me to belive that you, at this moment in time, may not be ready to accept that there is more out there than you have previously considered (whether it be mushroom intelligence or any "mystical" idea).  Or, you have considered it, and in realizing that this would throw your whole world for a loop have rejected your own thoughts out of fear. Therfore, you must do the same to me.  We are really not that different, you and I, two sides of the same coin.  I was like you once, but it wasn't a happy time for me.  It takes a lot of energy to say "NO!" to all the "YES!" that life throws at you.  I don't want to bring any negativity to this board, so I ask you, can we just agree to disagree? :shrug:


--------------------
"There is no greater power in heaven and earth than the thought of the son of man. Though unseen by the eyes of the body,yet each thought has mighty strength, even such strength can shake the heavens." -Gospel of the Essenes


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Offlinedeff
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3390344 - 11/20/04 08:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

last night I ate mushrooms

I 'transcended' the 'physical sprectrum'

and realized the one inherit 'hand' behind all existence

and that the biggest question, as shakespeare said, is

"to be, or not to be"

oscillating between the two values of existing/not-existing

infinite matter perceived by one mind through varying subjective perspectives

beliefs do shape reality, existence is infinite until confined by illusionary concepts of boundaries - thereby giving the relativity necessary to create abstracts

there is no objective, besides the allthatis omnipresent state of the singular mind

which knows all, and knows nothing

oscillating oscillating

the nothingness wants to exist and wills it to be so, clinging to the idea of somethingness

through letting go, we withdraw our bubble of consciousness from the physical blender of subjective presence. we withdraw into the void, becoming nothing. simultaneously becoming infinite.

the seperation of self and nonself is illusionary, it is limited only by the concept of limitation itself

all 'individual' experience is linked to the sum of all experience through a 'dimension' that is not 'normally' perceived consciously

and the ignorance towards this exists as a fundamental trait towards interal consciousness

to know all is to be nothing

infinite, or something

to say the least - it was an incredible journey with the fungus :cool:

(/end off-topic story - sorry :smile:)


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: deff]
    #3390362 - 11/20/04 08:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Me too, haha :laugh:


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: slaphappy]
    #3392306 - 11/21/04 07:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"to be, AND/or not to be"
-unknown :P


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3392755 - 11/21/04 12:59 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mixomatosis said: Don't even pretend you think you're communicating anything with a statement like this.




Quote:

dmtrypr said: P.S. Mix, I am not "pretending" to be communicating with you. I KNOW I am not communicating with you




I'll say you're not... he said "communicating anything" (not "communicating with me") but you read up til the word "communicating" and then apparently stopped reading so that you could formulate a riposte.

by the way, the full sentence mixomatosis objected to was: Just the effects of eating mushrooms seem to point to their possesing of a higher state. and I agree with mix, what information are you trying to convey with those words? "higher"?? and, to get really specific, do things 'possess' states? indeed, do things 'possess of' states?


Edited by Zekebomb (11/21/04 01:06 PM)


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) (now with cool new pictures) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3392763 - 11/21/04 01:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

while we're at it...

Quote:

dmtrypr said:This leads me to believe that the mushroom "plant" is very aware of its surroundings.

This "awareness", coupled with the fact that mushrooms are not your run of the mill forest product seem to point to a real intelligence about these creatures.




so, the fact that mushrooms are "aware" plus the fact that they aren't run-of-the-mill equals a real intelligence? your logic is intriguing


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InvisibleTYL3R
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) (now with cool new pictures) [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3392910 - 11/21/04 02:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

so, the fact that mushrooms are "aware" plus the fact that they aren't run-of-the-mill equals a real intelligence? your logic is intriguing



I think that mushrooms are not of this world.... :mushroom2:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) (now with cool new pictures) [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3392912 - 11/21/04 02:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Not to mention that psilocybe cubensis are not forest dwellers, but grow in pastures.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3393798 - 11/21/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

In case you're just joining us and don't feel like reading the lengthy posts above, let me sum up the discussion between me and dmtrypr

dmtrypr: I believe mushrooms are intelligent. Here is all my evidence, read it.

mixomatosis: Wait, that's not good evidence, and what do you mean by intelligence, and awareness anyway? I suggest you clarify your ideas so I can access them.

dmtrypr: Evidence? EVIDENCE??? Who needs evidence you.. Box-dwelling spiritual bottom-feeder!

Mixomatosis: but wait, aren't all your photos posted as evidence of your theory? Your simultaneous use of and disdain for evidence strikes me as hypocra...

dmtrypr: SHUT UP! I've lived many many more lifetimes than you and I'm much more spiritually evolved, you're new to this realm and cycle of reincarnation so bend over and suck it.. AT THE SAME TIME!!!

Mixomatosis: Woah man, this is getting a little heavy, please leave our immortal souls out of thi..

dmtrypr: I USED TO THINK JUST LIKE YOU!! I CAN SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOU!

Bold claim considering I wrote less than 300 words.

Ok, enough half-jokingly yet very effectively difusing your agression and deconstructing your poorly organized thoughts. First let me congratulate you on the achievement on your second post. I did some calculations, and it turns out that 39% (going by word count) of it consists of attacking me and my generalized personality type. Calling me spiritually unevolved, etc.

One thing your post ignores, though, is my basic problem with the way you presented your ideas. You claim mushrooms have intelligence, but you never define that word.

Presenting a philosophy essay who's main ideas rest on a foundation of undefined terms is analogous to the guerrilla warfare tactics employed by the vietcong. This is fine if your goal is to hunker in your jungle while impaling Americans on stone-age pit traps and shit-covered sharpened sticks. Every time an intellectual air-strike vaporizes your village of mud huts and thatched roofs you fade behind a leafy facade and retreat into a vast semantic territory made cartographically untenable by the very nature of its undefinable landmarks engaging in a dream-like continuously shifting dance of ritualized meaninglessness.

But something tells me this isn't what you're going for. I can't imagine you want to do anything on this forum but stand with the rest of us on solid ground, look us in the eye, and share some ideas. So sit in the jungle sharpening bamboo if you like.. but while you do, I, the Americans, will sit back dropping agent orange, inventing the internet, and bobbing my head to the revolutionary rock music of the woodstock era.

Next, what you claim as evidence for the mushroom's intelligence is that they react to their environment (different shapes in different containers) and are unique ("not your run of the mill forest product"). Well guess what? Every species of every organism has aspects of itself that aren't repeated anywhere else in nature (unique), and every THING reacts to its environment, from complicated living organisms to droplets of water.

How you reach your conclusion, whatever it is (you won't say, I'll ask again that you define your terms), with such mundane and universal evidence is a mystery to me. They say when Francisco De Orellana, the first european to ride the amazon river to the sea, went temporarily insane when faced by the vastness of the river's head waters. Well, I too am straining my sanity to comprehend the vast channels of your meandering pseudo-logic. For example:

this is not a science discussion.
WHAT?? Then why'd you follow the scientific method to reach your conclusions? You came up with a hypothesis ("mushrooms are intelligent"), an experiment to prove this (growing mushrooms in various containers) complete with different groups to help isolate cause and effect. Then, when I point out the flaws in what is clearly an attempt at a scientific experiment, you claim it's not science. You don't come out and clearly say it, but it seems you're looking to hold up your poetic license and simply express your sense of wonderment with a psychedelic life form through pretty prose.. So DO IT! Nobody can have a problem with that, it's just that your trying to rationalize your poetry with science which just doesn't work. You've stretched yourself between the two worlds of science and art, and just like when Jean Claude Van Damme suspends himself between two chairs in the full side splits.. you've left your nuts wide open and I can't help but kick.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3394071 - 11/21/04 08:17 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Shit.. that was hilarious.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: dmtrypr]
    #3394122 - 11/21/04 08:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dmtrypr said:
The mushrooms that I am talking about are psilocybes. I can't think of many other "run of the mill" forest products that also happen to contain chemistry that is almost identical to those in our brains




hmm, ever heard of a little thing that those of us in the business like to call 'DNA'? well as it turns out, almost everything in the forest contains this stuff. also, it just so happens that many humans contain DNA in their brains! COINCIDENCE??!?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: M.I. (Mushroom Intelligence) [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3394510 - 11/21/04 10:20 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Every time an intellectual air-strike vaporizes your village of mud huts and thatched roofs you fade behind a leafy facade and retreat into a vast semantic territory made cartographically untenable by the very nature of its undefinable landmarks engaging in a dream-like continuously shifting dance of ritualized meaninglessness.

Ohmigod! It's the anti-McKenna. Run for your sanity!  :tongue2: :thumbup:


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