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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason 2 [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1707049 -

The ones willing to give those to us don't want to break the Universal Law of Free Will, and the ones that would break the Law to give them to us would rather we not have them.

Edited by Max Headroom (07/11/03 08:02 PM)

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason 2 [Re: Strumpling]
    #1707176 -

The meditation session was pretty interesting actually. Not because of any amazing reflections or thougths. As I mentioned before, it was the first time I'd meditated in a while after almost half a year of meditating nearly everyday. At first I was sweating, which is pretty normal because my room is hot as fuck, but a while later I noticed my body was starting to get goosebumps. Everytime that I started to lose concentration, the goosebumps would go away, but as soon as I refocused myself on my breathing, they would rush back through my body like a stream of energy. It was a great feeling everytime that it came back. As I finally opened my eyes and stopped meditating, I just felt euphoric and had absolutely no desire to move at all. Well sorry to bore you all with my in-depth description of my meditation. I don't really know what exactly I wanted to figure out last night when I set out to meditate, but clearing my mind felt great.


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"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?"
- Bill Hicks

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Swami]
    #1707549 -

<B> tar is a typical yellow star in the middle of its life with similar chemical comosition to other stars- we're at a totally uninteresting position in the galaxy, and the fact that our solar system has 4 terrestrial planets suggests that once you've got a sun, an Earth isn't too hard to come by.
</B>

What makes you think we aren't in the center of the universe? If infinite from here is in all directions surrounding us, does that not make us the
center of inifinte?

What 4 planets are life-sustaining?!?!

Mercury - NO WAY, too close to the sun, and I don't believe it has an atmosphere.
Venus - NO WAY, the atmosphere is poisonous sulfur gas, good luck there buddy.
Earth - hmmm, there is much inteligent life, but there all also dominant idiots.
Mars - Possibly could have sustained life at one time or another, or future?hrmmmm

Any planet beyond this is simply too cold to sustain life, I doubt one of Jupiters moons could either.


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AH HA....

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1707995 -

I've just come in on this thread and have skim-read most of it up to here.. sorry if this point has already been made:

The universe is infinite. I think this can be assumed to be true as there should be no boundry. for the sake of this argument, I'm going to assume that the place in space where the big-bang occured is the centre of the universe (it doesn't really matter to the argument but makes it easier to explain. So one day, billions of years ago, some reaction took place which sent all the matter scattering all over the place.

Imagine drawing a straight line between every star and planet- you'd have a kind of wire mesh everything. Since the universe is infinite, the size of this mesh is insignificant.. It might as well be as big as a ball bearing, it is tiny in comparision to the infinite depths of space.

Everything is based on probabilites. There was a mathematical formula billions of years ago which would have calculated the probablity of me sitting at my desk today writing this message.

Seeing as the universe is infinite, surely somewhere out there, there will be other big bangs. An infinite number of big bangs at distances so far away as to be completely incomprehensible to the human mind. Based on probabilites, should there not be someone out there, billions upon billions upon billions of light-years away who looks just like me, sitting at his computer, writing a message on a magic mushroom message board?

think about it.. this bugs me sometimes..


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-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1708002 -

Quote:
Why haven't the aliens given us the cure for cancer or the theory of everything? No harm in that...


It's like giving computers to south-africans that carry baskets on their heads... They'd look at you and go "Wha???".

I still the think government has a cure for AIDS though.. If Bush got the HIV I think they'd clear it up, not tell a soul about it, and he'd get right back to nuking foreign countries. I mean COME on.. they DID start the epidemic - they have to know how to cure it...


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1708006 -

In an infinite universe all probabilities are reality somewhere. Why can't I be in the reality where I have a harem of 1000 for the most sexy women on the planet?


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1708028 -

in other words.. there's intelligent life out there


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-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1708065 -

Quote:
Seeing as the universe is infinite, surely somewhere out there, there will be other big bangs. An infinite number of big bangs at distances so far away as to be completely incomprehensible to the human mind. Based on probabilites, should there not be someone out there, billions upon billions upon billions of light-years away who looks just like me, sitting at his computer, writing a message on a magic mushroom message board?

think about it.. this bugs me sometimes..


Yeah, but that's just because "infinite" is such a strange concept. And that freaky feeling that there might be someone like me out there, I get that feeling everytime I look into another person's eyes! :eek:
   

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1708178 -

you know what I mean though? if it is infinite, then the probability of there being someone out there who is genetically identical and is living the exact same life should = 1. not only that, there should be an ifinite number of people somewhere out there who are genetically identical.

That is truly a strange concept, because the amount should be quantifiable; they're either there or they're not. can an infinite amount of people exist?


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1708215 -

wait wait wait...

I started this thread so so long ago, and I don't remember what point I made at the beginning of it, but it may have been this, which is a counter to your infinite universe stuff.

In biological time, humans haven't been around that long. There are lots of species who are much older than we are. We're recent. In ecological time, we've barely arrived, and in geological time.. well, the rocks haven't even noticed us, we've been here for a blink of an eye. Planetary time, we've been around for an even more insignifigant amount of time. Universal time, we aren't even here.

Time is so hugely vast that the odds of two intelligent species existing at the same time within navigable distances is pathetically low. We've been around for 100 000 years... that's fuck all. How long are we going to be around? Another hundred? Maybe a million, but it doesn't really matter. As far as the universe is concerned, our existence is a tiny tiny window, and I doubt any other life forms can exist simultaneously. Maybe they can in an infinitely huge universe, but they'd be so far away their presence would be useless and have no effect on us. I say we've never been contacted by aliens because the window of our existence is too narrow to allow for another species close enough to find us to exist.

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Dogomush]
    #1708233 -

just because the chance is pathetically low, doesn't mean there isn't a chance. and if there is a chance, in an infinite universe there are infinite chances for that almost-zero prbability to take place. and if there are infinite chances, then it will have hapened. The time frame is not relevant. There should be a version of us out there living a minute behind, 2 hours ahead, 50,000,000 years ago..

but you're right, they are so far away it doesn't even matter. still an interesting thought..

I don't even necessarily believe I'm right- following logic it seems it should be true, but in reality who knows?


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-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1708289 -

Quote:
you know what I mean though? if it is infinite, then the probability of there being someone out there who is genetically identical and is living the exact same life should = 1. not only that, there should be an ifinite number of people somewhere out there who are genetically identical.


Yeah, I know what you mean. But in such a case, of all the different variations of the worlds that contain instances of Rob_K that are indistinguishable from each other, what makes you think you are conscious of only one of them? Your consciousness of being yourself might be equally distributed over all of these instances, there's no way anyone could tell as long as they are all equal...

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1708316 -

Hey Dogo - this is for you...

Quote:
Time is so hugely vast that the odds of two intelligent species existing at the same time within navigable distances is pathetically low. We've been around for 100 000 years... that's fuck all. How long are we going to be around? Another hundred? Maybe a million, but it doesn't really matter. As far as the universe is concerned, our existence is a tiny tiny window, and I doubt any other life forms can exist simultaneously. Maybe they can in an infinitely huge universe, but they'd be so far away their presence would be useless and have no effect on us.


The Universe is so infinetly vast that the odds of two intelligent species existing during the same time-frame is probably almost a CONSTANT, if not more than two species. The distance thing is a good point, but in something so unmeasureable I feel you've gone a little close-minded on your post. Our existance is, you're right; a tiny tiny window, yet that doesn't mean that there aren't ancient civilizations in communication with each other billions of light years away.

Secondly, alien civilisations may not have an effect on *US* as peopl in the you and me sense, but once the blink of our existance is taken into consideration, who's to say some 14 tentacle squid kid sneezing isn't going to cause the destruction of our civilization 450 million years from now?

Lemme try to give you an example...

Spherical Bubble Boy living on Planet x24328 to the power of 12 walks his pet ghrezoidikrak one day and gets hit by a U.F.O. (when I use the term UFO, I mean that *we* as humans can't identify it...). Spherical Bubble Boy (SBB) doesn't make it, and SBB's parental unit decides that they (being both male and female) don't feel the need for more loss like this to occur, so in turn they create better brakes for the UFO's. One day on a quantum quartonianite haul from the closest class 2 solar system, one of these brakes (which were designed primarily for inter-atmospheric travel) fails, causing what can basically be described as a dump truck the size of jupiter to side swipe a planet 12 times the size of earth, knocking it out of it's orbit. In an INFINITE universe, ALL things are INFITELY possible, meaning that this is happening RIGHT now, which in turn could cause mass destruction in our solar system 450 million years from now. All we're trying to explain is that it's possible, almost probable that two intelligent species are existing RIGHT NOW on different planets somewhere out there.

Once again I quote,

Quote:
As far as the universe is concerned, our existence is a tiny tiny window, and I doubt any other life forms can exist simultaneously.


Quote:
we've been here for a blink of an eye.


Your statement displays closed minded contradicting points. Not only do you state that we've been here the 'blink of an eye', which I agree with, but then you go (quoted in reverse) to say that you doubt any other life forms can exist simultaneously, as if we as human beings are the be all end all of intelligent races, which I find infinitely amusing considering we've only been here for the 'blink of an eye'.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1709061 -

Quote:
Rhizoid said:

what makes you think you are conscious of only one of them? Your consciousness of being yourself might be equally distributed over all of these instances, there's no way anyone could tell as long as they are all equal...



I have to disagree with this.. the way people could tell is the fact that we co-exist within the same dimension, albeit billions of light years apart. I mean, there could be another rob k out there, but he does physically exist in the same space- we could meet if interstellar travel were possible. I don't see how consciences could be linked.


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1710902 -

Think of it this way: imagine a universe that repeats our region of space exactly forever and ever. Whatever I do, it is simultaneously replicated by an infinite number of copies of me. In such a case I think it's more reasonable to identify "me" with the entire replicated pattern, rather than with just one particular instance of it.

Now back to the original version of the infinite universe, where the variations are random instead of repeated copies. There should be an infinite number of copies of our patch of the universe (everything within the Hubble radius). They will begin to differentiate from each other as the Hubble radius expands and more distant light from the past reaches each copy of the Earth, but even as they differentiate there will still be an infinite number of copies of each differentiated instance, etc. No matter how long you play the game, there will always be an infinite number of exact copies left that are just like our visible universe. So we're still talking instances of a pattern, even if the pattern is much more complicated than in the first case.

Infinity is a truly weird concept. :oogle: 

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1710934 -

Weird is right.. I agree with your last post, there should in theory be an infine number of these diverging universes.. the other weird thing to think is that there are an ifinite number of outcomes of the big bang- some universes will be totally different from ours. And for each of these universes, there would be like you say an infinite number of repetitions and divergences.

However.. there is this niggle in the back of my mind saying no matter how far you go, you'll never find one exactly the same. Its like ice crystals- they are all unique. I'm going to use the phrase chaos theory, though I have no idea of exactly what this is about. While statistical formula tells us that [infinity * x] where "x" is the probability that there is someone out there genetically identical to me, it does feel like everything is just too chaotic and random. I'm playing devils advocate here, but it is one of those arguments where my brain keeps disagreeing with its self. I guess some things are just too strange to comprehend..


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

Edited by Rob_K (07/14/03 04:34 AM)

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rob_K]
    #1713359 -

Hey, I thought I was the devil's advocate here! :smile:

"They are all unique" is true only as long as "all" does not include an infinite set of ice crystals. There may be specimens that are unique, but there must be infinitely many copies of at least one of the ice crystals.

Of course if the crystals can be of any size, then there's a way to avoid duplication: just let each crystal contain a unique number of molecules. This works only as long as we ignore gravitation, because beyond a certain size an ice crystal will collapse into a neutron star, destroying the crystal structure...

But the principle might work for expanding universe bubbles, carefully arranged to have various sizes, with only a finite number of universes of each size.
   

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1713409 -

The universe is not infinite. Maybe the entire collection of EVERYTHING that the universe is comprised of is infinite. But I really dont think the universe itself is infinite...perhaps infinitely expanding but still retains an unconstant finite length.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: psyka]
    #1713511 -

what I mean psyka is that the collection of starts and planets that make up our universe will obviously come to an end somewhere, but if you keep going, you will eventually get to a place where there are no stars, no planets, no nothing. You'd be in a dark void, probably of temerature absolute zero. And once you reach this void, maybe if you keep going long enough (I'm talking billions to the power billions of light years) you might eventually find another collection of stars and planets, where another big bang has occured.

There's no way space can be finite, becasue where's the edge?


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

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Re: There isn't intelligent life out there reason [Re: Murex]
    #11001728 -

Murex said:
Our star is a typical yellow star in the middle of its life with similar chemical comosition to other stars- we're at a totally uninteresting position in the galaxy, and the fact that our solar system has 4 terrestrial planets suggests that once you've got a sun, an Earth isn't too hard to come by.

I can se your point, it is somewhat valid. It really is the only thing we can base other systems on. As for having 4 planets capabable of life in our system; I just don't know about that. Besides Mars and Earth, what would be the other 2? 


Even if the universe is not infinite, it is quite large. The chances of other life as advanced and quick to advance as us is very likely.


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The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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