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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Do mushrooms choose people?
    #799313 - 08/06/02 07:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maria Sabina said that the sacred mushrooms didn't reveal their secrets to everyone. Those who approached them a lack of humility and respect would be shown nothing. This seems to be being echoed in the posts of poor swami. His most profound experience was seeing a tree melt...and now everytime he takes mushrooms he has heart problems. With psilocybin being one of the least toxic drugs in existence (around 400 places lower than aspirin in the toxicity league) and with no known history of it ever causing heart problems, is this perhaps simply the mushrooms way of rejecting Swami?

Meanwhile the rest of us who approach them with an open mind, humility and love have deeply rewarding and profound spiritual experiences. Perhaps there is wisdom in Maria Sabinas words.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #799323 - 08/06/02 07:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: World Spirit]
    #799334 - 08/06/02 07:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No insult. Swami has said all these things and insisted mushrooms are meaningless hallucinations. Perhaps Maria Sabina had the answer for why he feels this way.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblePeaceful_Nomad
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #799504 - 08/06/02 09:14 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Perhaps there is wisdom in Maria Sabinas words.





From The Ones that Stain Blue

"There is a world beyond ours, a world that is far away, nearby, and invisible, and there is where God lives, where the dead live, the spirits and the saints. A world where everything has already happened and everything is known. That world talks. It has a language of it?s own. I report what it says. The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way that I can understand. I ask them and they answer me. When I return from the trip that I have taken with them, I tell what they have told me and what they have shown me. "

~ Mazatec Shaman Maria Sabina

Infinite Clockwork

"The secrets that the mushrooms revealed to me are enclosed in a big Book that they showed me and that is found in a region very far away from their world, a great Book. They gave it to me when Ana Mar?a fell ill ... and seemed almost near death. So I decided to return again to the teo-nan?catl. I took many, many more than I had ever taken before: thirty plus thirty. I loved my sister and was ready to do anything, even to make a very long trip, just to save her.

I was sitting in front of her with my body, but my soul was entering the world of the teo-nan?catl and was seeing the same landscape that it had seen many other times, then landscapes that it had never seen because the great number of mushrooms had taken me into the deepest of the depths of that world. I was going ahead until, at one point, a duende, a spirit, came toward me. He asked a strange question: ?But what do you wish to become, you, Mar?a Sabina??

I answered him, without knowing, that I wished to become a saint. Then the spirit smiled, and immediately he had in his hands something that he did not have before, and it was a big Book with many written pages. ?Here,? he said. ?I am giving you this Book so that you can do your work better and help people who need help and know the secrets of the world where everything is known.?

I thumbed through the leaves of the Book, many written pages, and I thought that unfortunately I did not know how to read. I had never learned, and therefore that would not have been of any use to me. Suddenly, I realised I was reading and understood all that was written in the Book and that I became as though richer, wiser, and that moment I learned millions of things. I learned and learned ... I looked for the herbs that the Book had indicated to me, and I did exactly what I had learned from the Book. And also Ana Mar?a got well.

I didn?t need to see the Book again because I had learned everything that was inside it. But I again saw the spirit that gave it to me and other spirits and other landscapes; and I saw, close by, the sun and the moon because the more you go inside the world of teo-nan?catl, the more things are seen. And you also see our past and our future, which are there together as a single thing already achieved, already happened. So I saw the entire life of my son Aurelio and his death and the face and the name of the man that was to kill him and the dagger with which he was going to kill him because everything had already been accomplished. The murder had already been committed, and it was useless for me to say to my son that he should look out because they would kill him, because there was nothing to say. They would kill him, and that was it. And I saw other deaths and other murders and people who were lost - no one knew where they were - and I alone could see. And I saw stolen horses and ancient buried cities, the existence of which was unknown, and they were going to be brought to light.

Millions of things I saw and I knew. I knew and saw God: an immense clock that ticks, the spheres that go slowly around, and inside the stars, the earth, the entire universe, the day and the night, the cry and the smile, the happiness and the pain. He who knows to the end of the secret of the ?teo-nan?catl? can even see that infinite clockwork."

The Mazatec Wise Woman, Maria Sabina (1894-1985 )

For those who have used the mushroom in a sacred manner, the above should
seem familiar. Large doses of psilocybin have a way of removing human barriers
and revealing the Light and Darkness that comprises the universe, which exists
within each and every life form on this planet.

Some try to explain the Light as God and the Darkness as Satan. Biblical text
often relates the Light as being of God and the Darkness being of Satan. I would
venture to guess other ancient theological texts have similarities to the latter
example.

I believe we hold all the answers, the truths to life?s mysteries, within ourselves.
What would this world be like if we utilized all the money spent on space
exploration and diverted it to a psychonaut program ~ the deep journey within to
explore what we already know, yet is blocked by millenia of evolution and fear?

Peace to Everyone,

Peaceful Nomad










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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #799751 - 08/06/02 11:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maria Sabina said that the sacred mushrooms didn't reveal their secrets to everyone. Those who approached them a lack of humility and respect would be shown nothing.

Is Maria Sabina suggesting psychadelic mushrooms have a consciousness, let alone secrets to tell us? That is saying mushrooms can think and make decisions like an intelligent life form. I'm guessing she was tripping when she said this...

This seems to be being echoed in the posts of poor swami. His most profound experience was seeing a tree melt...

The only thing you know about him is what he sold you, dumbfuck.*

Meanwhile the rest of us who approach them with an open mind, humility and love have deeply rewarding and profound spiritual experiences.

Having read many of Swami's posts, I have to say he is a very open minded person who doesn't agree or believe everything he hears before investigating it for himself first. I bet that would go the same for a mushroom trip...if Swami talked to God on shrooms, he'd be like "did I really talk to Him or did I sell my self a load of shit?" While on the other hand you would probably go tell all your friend's God sent you a message and you wouldn't even question why.

*Modified Tool lyric


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #799874 - 08/06/02 12:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Having read many of Swami's posts, I have to say he is a very open minded person

You wanna get out more son.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #799883 - 08/06/02 12:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Is Maria Sabina suggesting psychadelic mushrooms have a consciousness, let alone secrets to tell us? That is saying mushrooms can think and make decisions like an intelligent life form. I'm guessing she was tripping when she said this...

Do you even know who Maria Sabina is without doing a google search? Be honest now...

You sound about 10 years old. Are you another one who'se never seen anything more than melting trees? Bitter about it?

Jeez, I remember this board before swami ruined it with his constant bullshit and drove all the sensitive people away. Now we're just left with the absolute dregs like this kid *

*modified lennon lyric


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (08/06/02 12:47 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #799892 - 08/06/02 12:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that to gain the full effect of a mushroom journey one must approach it with respect and an open heart.


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #799943 - 08/06/02 01:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have noticed you have a thing against Swami, always trying to diss him at every chance you get. If you think he ruined the message board then why are you still here? I personally think Swami contributes a great deal to this board. Look at his Random Acts Of Kindness thread he started. Everyone enjoyed that one.

Now to your queries:

Do you even know who Maria Sabina is without doing a google search? Be honest now...

Ok I will be honest, I have no fooken clue who she is, I didn't even do a Google search. I just said that to spite you


You sound about 10 years old. Are you another one who'se never seen anything more than melting trees? Bitter about it?

Why exactly do I sound ten years old? Cause I don't agree with your opinion I have to be immature?



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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #799947 - 08/06/02 01:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Is Maria Sabina suggesting psychadelic mushrooms have a consciousness, let alone secrets to tell us? That is saying mushrooms can think and make decisions like an intelligent life form. I'm guessing she was tripping when she said this...

I don't think she is saying they are intelligent...Some people look at a Van Gough and see clouds, the sky, and grass and others look at it and see a message, a meaning. It depends on how much you want to see, how much you are open to changing your mind.

Having read many of Swami's posts, I have to say he is a very open minded person who doesn't agree or believe everything he hears before investigating it for himself first. I bet that would go the same for a mushroom trip...if Swami talked to God on shrooms, he'd be like "did I really talk to Him or did I sell my self a load of shit?" While on the other hand you would probably go tell all your friend's God sent you a message and you wouldn't even question why.

I think you are pretending to know much that you don't...I mean this as someone who cares, not as a flame...it is unwise to do that. I hope you don't get offended by that. Peace.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


Edited by Shroomalicious (08/06/02 01:07 PM)


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Loc: The Shire
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #799969 - 08/06/02 01:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maria Sabina said that the sacred mushrooms didn't reveal their secrets to everyone. Those who approached them a lack of humility and respect would be shown nothing. This seems to be being echoed in the posts of poor swami.

You are saying that Swami is unenlightened, right? That is a mighty big judgement. Are you sure you know enough about the situation to say that?

With psilocybin being one of the least toxic drugs in existence (around 400 places lower than aspirin in the toxicity league) and with no known history of it ever causing heart problems, is this perhaps simply the mushrooms way of rejecting Swami?

Yes, it could be but we don't know that. Chemicals have a funny way of reacting with different bodies, every time my friend eats onions she swells and must go to the hospital, and yet onions are not toxic. I would say that unless you have a 100% understanding of Swami's body chemicals and a 100% understanding of Mushroom's that you are making a big judgement on something that you are perhaps not knowledgeable enough to make.

I don't know why 100% of the people who approach Mushroom's are not given the same type of experience. I have ideas...different people need to see different things, different consciousnesses will only reveal certain things, some people are not open enought to change their minds, etc.

However, I am not so arrogant to believe that they don't because I am so cool, and I am so right and they are so stupid and wrong.

I hope you understand that I only want to tell you what I think and not at all to flame you.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Registered: 06/03/02
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #800027 - 08/06/02 01:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that to gain the full effect of a mushroom journey one must approach it with respect and an open heart.

Right on, I highly agree Shroomism. You must always RESPECT the sacred mushroom, that is the key factor
Peace, Trev


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineDanimal
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Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 76
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #805411 - 08/08/02 07:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

First off, the header of this thread is quite deceiving. It doesn?t sound like you are truly interested in people?s opinions/ideas concerning mushrooms choosing people(I don?t think they do, I will expound later), instead you seem to be trying to rally people against swami.

His most profound experience was seeing a tree melt...and now everytime he takes mushrooms he has heart problems.
Perhaps I haven?t dug through enough posts, but since officially joining this forum a few months back and following every thread to the best of my ability, I can?t recall when Swami said that his most profound/life changing/incredible experience was seeing a tree melt. Seeing as he?s probably been tripping for longer than I?ve been alive two times over, I would seriously be surprised if that was the extent of his experiences. As well, I do remember Swami posting a thread about taking a dose and it not being as pleasurable as previous experiences and he was contemplating stopping.

Meanwhile the rest of us who approach them with an open mind, humility and love have deeply rewarding and profound spiritual experiences. Perhaps there is wisdom in Maria Sabinas words.

Let?s review what you have taken from these trips with an ?open mind, humility and love??

Do you even know who Maria Sabina is without doing a google search? Be honest now...
Arrogance

You sound about 10 years old. Are you another one who'se never seen anything more than melting trees? Bitter about it?
Namecalling, apparent ability to read mind and know people?s ages.

Jeez, I remember this board before swami ruined it with his constant bullshit and drove all the sensitive people away.
If you consider questioning widely held beliefs, ideas, philosophies and responding with personal experiences, adventures, knowledge, etc. as bullshit, than you are correct. Swami himself sounds like a very sensitive person however that may be a cover for his true cold, heartless, hateful persona. Thank you for the heads-up, seeing as I consider myself a sensitive person, I?ll be ready to run away when Swami comes to burn me at the stake with logic and reasoning!

You see to have a very strong distaste for Swami and do everything in your power to cast him down along with anyone else who disagrees with you. Since I am not an experienced mushroom user(1 trip to date), perhaps I too will be enlightened with these profound qualities in the near future.

As promised, I will answer the original header. Your question sounds a bit too ?many are called, few are chosen?(that how it goes?) and I don?t see how a mushroom can choose a person[to reveal its secret]. As well, I?m curious how the choosing process works, is it sort of like a lotto? If that is how it works, would it also follow that the more shrooms you take, the better your chances of winning are? ?You can?t win if you don?t trip!?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Danimal]
    #805600 - 08/08/02 09:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You see to have a very strong distaste for Swami and do everything in your power to cast him down along with anyone else who disagrees with you.

No problem with swami, i don't know the kid. I have a problem with people coming into threads with a closed mind and refusal to contemplate the possibility they could be wrong. Then turning nasty when you call them on their errors. You seem to see only what you wish to see. (Ignoring the post where the kid calls me a dumbfuck, and concentrating on my very mild response for example..). Perhaps you see yourself in swami and this is why he appeals to you so much.

Enlightenment? I don't hold out much hope for you without a radical opening of your mind. I'd forget all about mushrooms and concentrate on developing your character first. Take care.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (08/08/02 09:12 PM)


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #807136 - 08/09/02 01:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

hey alex, I have reviewed my post when I called you "dumbfuck" by using Tool's lyrics and I understand that's probably the one single thing that would of pissed you off about my post (hence calling me 10 years old). I take that back and am sorry for cussing at ya, I should of left out that word. Anyhow, hope we can still be reasonable and respectful to each other even though our opinions differ. Once again my apologies, tata.


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #808153 - 08/10/02 02:56 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

ya im sorry to swami, i can see where you are coming from now. you said long ago that you had undertaken the spiritual journey and found nothing. i kinda get the feeling that mybe you saw it and rejected it, just speculating though.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #808240 - 08/10/02 05:35 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No problem choda


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #809463 - 08/10/02 06:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Is Maria Sabina suggesting psychadelic mushrooms have a consciousness, let alone secrets to tell us? That is saying mushrooms can think and make decisions like an intelligent life form. I'm guessing she was tripping when she said this...

Consciousness? **shrugs** Maybe, who am i to tell you different? Terrance Mckenna brought about the idea that the mushroom is an Alien Entity. He said it was absurd that we expect to find an Alien life form that we can communicate with. But the mushrooms, when ingested communicates with us through our nervous system. Whether this is true or not, no one is sure. But something about it "rings home". He ALSO said, this may not be true, and provided an alternate theory.

A quote from Terrance : "I require the nervous system of a mammal. Do you have one handy?"

The only thing you know about him is what he sold you, dumbfuck.*

LOL. you funny, funny man.



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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: thePatient]
    #809518 - 08/10/02 07:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But the mushrooms, when ingested communicates with us through our nervous system.

whoa, that's some crazy ass food for my brain on this late evening! Mushrooms intentionally communicating with us through our nervous system? Whether that's true or not, it's a wild theory. Now McKenna DEFINATELY must of been tripping when he thought that up hehe


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: thePatient]
    #809598 - 08/10/02 08:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But the mushrooms, when ingested communicates with us through our nervous system

This is what we call pseudoscience.
I'll just breakdown ONE aspect of why this is the case.
Communication requires a code. A code requires an alphabet. Last time I checked, you needed at least a handful of characters/letters to form an alphabet. Mushrooms contain psilocybin, psilocin (it's direct analog), and sometimes baeocystin, so I guess you could argue that mushrooms have an alphabet of THREE characters (give or take a character; I might have left one out). I don't think the mushrooms would have anything intelligent to say with such a primitive alphabet.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: thePatient]
    #809606 - 08/10/02 08:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

As psilocybin can be produced in a lab and have the same effect as a mushroom trip, that shoots down the "alien life form communicating through our nervous system" as well as the ridiculous "mushrooms choose people" hypothesis, as the lab-produced molecule did not come from a living organism.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #809744 - 08/10/02 09:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm just waiting for someone to bungle on the neurophysiology.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #809761 - 08/10/02 09:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why does the fact that it can be reproduced in a lab negate anything? You'll soon be able to reproduce human beings in a lab. So what? The fact is it exists in nature for no known reason and it has extraordinary effects on human beings including experiences of alien contact.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #809765 - 08/10/02 09:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe it has no purpose. Maybe its just there. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #809773 - 08/10/02 09:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think we have to be open-minded about the possiblities tho.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #809782 - 08/10/02 09:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And that is one of them. I dont think you can provide any concrete proof that mushrooms have any form of consciousness.. Saying 'some people think its just getting fucked up and some people gain insight' is not concrete proof. How COULD mushrooms "choose" people?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #809791 - 08/10/02 09:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The mushrooms act in conjunction with the human being they are interacting with. Just like not everyone who plays a guitar will be Jimi Hendrix, not everyone who takes mushrooms will reach the same level. Some people have profound experiences, some just see trees melt. Clearly the quality of the man affects the quality of the experience.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #809900 - 08/10/02 10:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think the mushrooms would have anything intelligent to say with such a primitive alphabet.

Dont quote me on it, but doesnt the Hawaiin alphabet have only 14 characters? True, that is a lot more than 3, but not as much as 26.
Also, if you break down what a computer is based upon, it comes down to the binary sytem. Which is based upon 1s, and 0s. So communicating through the internet, everything you see on your screen, even when you download your porn, so you can whack it...its all based upon 1s, and 0s. That is 2 characters, which in turn create the 26 characters in our alphabet and a whole lot more information.

Mushrooms contain psilocybin, psilocin (it's direct analog), and sometimes baeocystin
Please explain this further. How do you interpret chemicals in the mushrooms as an alphabet?

Edit: typo


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


Edited by thePatient (08/10/02 11:53 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #809965 - 08/10/02 11:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Communication requires a code

Who told you that? You ever seen dolphins helping out handicapped kids? I don't think they share any form of alphabet whatsoever and yet it's the most powerful healing communication many of those kids will ever have in their entire lives. Dogs are often taken around hospitals because the contact and communication they have with ill people is more healing and powerful than any amount of talking. Communication can take many forms.

Also check out Jeremy Narbys "The cosmic serpent" for ways in which plants could communicate with us.


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Edited by Alex123 (08/10/02 11:50 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #809971 - 08/10/02 11:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Okay I will suppose that communication requires a code. But how do you know you can see or even recognize this code? It could very well operate on levels unobservable by modern science's methods.

Just because science says something is true doesn't mean it is absolutely true. Don't be afraid to push the envelope once in awhile, Sclorch. Unless I'm mistaken, your the one that made a few posts awhile back about the problem with believers is that they fear the unknown.

Face it, you nor modern science doesn't know everything about mushrooms, or anything for that matter. Anything is possible.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Adamist]
    #809980 - 08/11/02 12:04 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Having a code tends to restrict and limit communication - language is a very, very poor and limiting form of communication.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #809993 - 08/11/02 12:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Having a code tends to restrict and limit communication - language is a very, very poor and limiting form of communication.

I agree. If we could communicate psychicly (using visions), i dont believe that would have any type of code. And people use body language to communicate...not sure if a code is the basis of that.


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Edited by thePatient (08/11/02 12:18 AM)


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810105 - 08/11/02 05:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why does the fact that it can be reproduced in a lab negate anything?
It negates the fact than an organism that came from the stars is trying to communicate with you because:

1. a molecule is not an organism.
2. the lab molecule did not come from an organism.

The fact is it exists in nature for no known reason...
Our ignorance of it's function can hardly be a pointer to it's purpose.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #810313 - 08/11/02 08:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

1. a molecule is not an organism.
2. the lab molecule did not come from an organism.

If an alien crash-landed tomorrow do you think we'd be unable to recreate cells from his body in a lab? If you can recreate it in a lab does this mean the alien can't exist? We can create human cells in the lab, following your logic this means human beings cannot be communicating with us either as human cells can be created in a lab.

And of course when you start understanding the latest ideas of the human mind operating at the quantum level - where atomic particles can exist anywhere in the universe independent of time or space, your "communion" ideas of alien contact become irrelevant.

"Our ignorance of it's function can hardly be a pointer to it's purpose"

That's fine, but this is a discussion board and we're here to exchange ideas. If you want to sit on your ass until science answers the meaning of the psilocybin then fine. Go ahead. But seeing as it's illegal and there is no hope of any research being done for many years yet we will all be dead by then. I'd like to explore possibilities while I'm still alive.


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #810358 - 08/11/02 08:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex: Why does the fact that it can be reproduced in a lab negate anything?

Swami: It negates the fact than an organism that came from the stars is trying to communicate with you because:

1. a molecule is not an organism.
2. the lab molecule did not come from an organism.


Me: Yes, that is true. But what if the organism created the molecule for the purposes of communication? The fact that we can use electrons to communicate with has little to do with their being. Your answer seems reductionistic.

Alex: The fact is it exists in nature for no known reason...

Swami: Our ignorance of it's function can hardly be a pointer to it's purpose.

Me: Yes, that is true as well. But then we get into teleology and science rebuffs the invasion of their sacred truths by it at times.

We do know/assume that certain characteristics of organisms exist for certain reasons. The purpose of fangs is to bite into things like a claw. The purpose of the scent of a skunk is to repel attackers.

What is the function of the chemicals psilocybin and psilocin in the mushrooms? Are they waste products? I do not think we have a clue why they are in the mushrooms.

I may be making a categorical error here. I am aware of that. But I am also painfully aware that I do not know for sure.

Cheers,


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #810468 - 08/11/02 10:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But what if the organism created the molecule for the purposes of communication?
(I knew this fallacious "message in a bottle" would rear its ugly head.) As DMT creates even more powerful imagery than psilocybin and is contained in humans as well as thousands of plant species, who is sending a message to whom?

The fact that we can use electrons to communicate with has little to do with their being.
The electrons are secondary to the patterning. We can use morse code, light waves, semaphore or smoke signals, but there is an encoded message.

The psilocybin molecule, by itself has insufficient data to encode more than a simplistic one word message. A large random group of such molecules provides for no additional patterning whatsoever.



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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #810476 - 08/11/02 10:06 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What is the function of the chemicals psilocybin and psilocin in the mushrooms? Are they waste products?

This is basically what everyone wants to know. Let me first say that I DON'T know.
I read somewhere that psi. is thought to play a role in the reproductive cycle (signalling? maybe it acts like a hormone). If there are no receptors for psilocybin in the mushroom (which, seeing as it has no CNS, I doubt it would have receptors), then it is probably a by-product of some sort and NOT used for signalling. It could be just a step in some biochemical cascade (maybe the cascade which develops the fruiting body).

As for the MEANING behind the presence of such a chemical in a mushroom... meanings are anthropomorphic- they're byproducts of intention. I'd bet that anyone here, who believes in God, is going to also assume that there is meaning behind the presence of psiloc(yb)in in mushrooms. Everyone else will just have to reserve judgement until some scientist gets around to figuring out psiloc(yb)in's role in the mushroom.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810496 - 08/11/02 10:18 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If an alien crash-landed tomorrow do you think we'd be unable to recreate cells from his body in a lab?
No - and there is no relevance to anything I posted.

If you can recreate it in a lab does this mean the alien can't exist?
Huh?

We can create human cells in the lab,
Sorry, we cannot. Cloning is not creating, but copying.

following your logic this means human beings cannot be communicating with us either as human cells can be created in a lab.
This does not follow at all and is not in any way related to my logic. We communicate using the entire organism, not a single molecule.

...your "communion" ideas of alien contact become irrelevant.
I have no communion ideas of alien contact. You must be reading the posts of a parallel-dimension Swami...

That's fine, but this is a discussion board and we're here to exchange ideas.
Some of us are. Others are here to fashion an entire thread around attempting to put down a fellow-shroomerite.

If you want to sit on your ass...
Why I do or don't want is, as usual, irrelevant to the thread, but seems you can't directly address any points made without including such puerile comments.

But seeing as it's illegal...
The legality or illegality has nothing to do with your fantastic and totally insubstantiated hypothesis. People do their own research regardless.



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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #810501 - 08/11/02 10:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder, why havent you replied to my question : How do you interpret chemicals in the mushrooms as an alphabet?

I asked it in all sincerity. Maybe you felt overflowed by the replies on your "not enough characters to make an alphabet" theory. Thats understandable.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810513 - 08/11/02 10:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I still wanna know the mechanism of communication.. I ingest mushrooms, psilocybin enters my brain and I hallucinate.. How is this communication?


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #810526 - 08/11/02 10:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I ingest mushrooms, psilocybin enters my brain and I hallucinate.. How is this communication?

Maybe the psilocybin acts as a psychedelic "telephone" between you and the mushroom.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: thePatient]
    #810529 - 08/11/02 10:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah and maybe some people dial the wrong numbers...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Adamist]
    #810557 - 08/11/02 11:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And maybe some people just imagine that there's someone on the other end.


the Patient: Dont quote me on it, but doesnt the Hawaiin alphabet have only 14 characters? True, that is a lot more than 3, but not as much as 26.
Also, if you break down what a computer is based upon, it comes down to the binary sytem. Which is based upon 1s, and 0s. So communicating through the internet, everything you see on your screen, even when you download your porn, so you can whack it...its all based upon 1s, and 0s. That is 2 characters, which in turn create the 26 characters in our alphabet and a whole lot more information.


Random is random is random...
Random is patternless. No pattern = no code. No code = no communication.
Diffusion is a random process on the molecular level.
Psilocybin enters the bloodstream via diffusion (and is still subject to the randomizing effects of turbulence in the body's fluids- including blood and synaptic fluid. THERE IS NO CODE. Hence, there is no communication. I will argue this no more, I'm right.


Sclorch: Mushrooms contain psilocybin, psilocin (it's direct analog), and sometimes baeocystin
thePatient: Please explain this further. How do you interpret chemicals in the mushrooms as an alphabet?

I don't interpret them as such... I was giving the idea of 'mushroom communication' a chance.

immaculate: I still wanna know the mechanism of communication.. I ingest mushrooms, psilocybin enters my brain and I hallucinate.. How is this communication?

Dude... it's magic!
I honestly don't understand how some think that mushrooms communicate with us.


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #810596 - 08/11/02 11:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I will argue this no more, I'm right.

I laugh when i see people so caught up on their intellect. I laugh at your sclorch. Maybe your too smart for your own good. To say that you are right, and you will argue this no more is ABSURD. How could you possibly believe you are right? Don't you understand, can you even FATHOM, the infinite possibilities that we deal with on a daily basis? To say that you know some for sure is the dumbest thing I've ever seen you type.

"I am wise because i know i know nothing" - Socrates
I believe this quote applies here. No offense, but i find Socrates to be wiser than you.

We once thought that the Earth was flat. We once thought the Earth was the center of the universe. We once thought the atom was the smallest particle in the world...and then we split it. I entertain all possibilies of existence. The mushroom might be no more than an edible treat, or it may be an alien species that traveled through our galaxy and made its home here. Only to grow, and then to be ingested by us, telling us their secrets.

THERE IS NO CODE
I had know idea you were a self-acclaimed code breaking genius.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: thePatient]
    #810646 - 08/11/02 11:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Fine. I'm rightER.

As for the "argument" (if you want to call it that, I'd call it a lesson)...
I hate arguing neurophysiology with people who obviously lack education in the fundamentals of said subject. You would be wise to educate yourself (especially on matters such as these) before you subject your ideas to scrutiny in a public forum.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #810670 - 08/11/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No - and there is no relevance to anything I posted.

You said if you can create it in a lab then this somehow makes it meaningless. I pointed out you can create almost everything in the lab. It has all the relevance in the world.

Sorry, we cannot. Cloning is not creating, but copying.

Sorry, but we can. Check your science. We can manipulate DNA.

This does not follow at all and is not in any way related to my logic. We communicate using the entire organism, not a single molecule.

You call this gibberish "logic"? You communicate using "the entire organism"? Please explain what this means. Do your legs communicate?

Some of us are.

Yes, we are, your "contribution" however appears to be putting down anyone who suggests ideas that "science" hasn't proven. Since science has no interest in addressing these questions and cannot because it is illegal to do research on these substances you points are completely worthless.

Why I do or don't want is, as usual, irrelevant to the thread, but seems you can't directly address any points made without including such puerile comments.

You refuse to countenance any discussion until science has proven it. Science is currently making no effort to address these questions. You are therefore sitting on your ass waiting to be spoonfed an answer that isn't coming. And at the same time making snide and deeply pathetic comments about people working to find an answer.

People do their own research regardless.

Ah, what research is this pray tell? The research that mouse in your pocket tells you is happening? Where is it being done? Serious research takes serious funding. There is no current research project recieving funding for psilocybin. This is fact. Not your fanciful "people are doing their own research" fantasy.

Incidentally, I wouldn't put too much faith in science in areas like this. As GM foods and global warming has shown, funding creates scientific views. If funding is going to guys who produce evidence that GM foods are harmless, evidence will be found that GM foods are harmless. As the research on ecstasy has shown, research showing it's harmless is suppressed, research showing it's dangerous is given billboards in every city in the world. We need a little more than blind faith in politically motivated science in this day and age.


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Edited by Alex123 (08/11/02 12:03 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810678 - 08/11/02 12:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Serious research takes serious funding.

Not always. SHULGIN.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #810696 - 08/11/02 12:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No, serious research takes serious funding. Saying "shulgin" does not invalidate this simple fact.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810702 - 08/11/02 12:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Einstein.


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810712 - 08/11/02 12:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No, we're not talking producing theories here. We're talking research. Einsteins theories couldn't be proven until a series of massive experiments costing many millions of dollars were carried out.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810729 - 08/11/02 12:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

He didn't just pull the theory out of thin air. He had to do a lot of research first.

Anyone can do serious research. It doesn't cost a penny.

If you're talking about research and development or experimental verification of theories, yes that can get quite expensive.



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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810747 - 08/11/02 12:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Unfortunately you can't do research into the effects and mechanism of psilocybin in the human mind in your garden shed. You need enormously expensive equipment etc.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810755 - 08/11/02 12:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Okay I agree with you there. But you said "serious research takes serious funding". Just be careful with the blanket statements.


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #810756 - 08/11/02 12:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Shulgin

Einstein

McKenna

I love a flamefest.

Hey, check out the pictures of the nude women clowns in my other thread!

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810760 - 08/11/02 12:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You banter too much.. Maybe what Maria Sabina meant was that not everyone can use the state of mind induced by psilocybin mushrooms to see things in a new light, from a new angle, and hopefully learn something new from another experience in life. I still want to know what/how/why/etc the mushrooms are wanting to communicate..


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #810886 - 08/11/02 01:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Some people do experience a sense of communication with the spirit of the entheogen. (and yes, it can happen with synthetic chemicals too)

I would be interested to hear everyone's ideas for why this is.

Psychological / biochemical / entities from another dimension...


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: mirrorsaw]
    #810898 - 08/11/02 01:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Are psilocybe mushrooms a conscious entity that can communicate with us?



Communicate with mushrooms?
Absolutely yes
Certainly not
Maybe
That's a fucking crazy idea



Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #810923 - 08/11/02 02:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

As psilocybin can be produced in a lab and have the same effect as a mushroom trip, that shoots down the "alien life form communicating through our nervous system" as well as the ridiculous "mushrooms choose people" hypothesis, as the lab-produced molecule did not come from a living organism.





as the lab-produced molecule did not come from a living organism

Everything is living if you view life from an atomic and sub-atomic standpoint. The
makeup of life as we know it on Earth is merely differentiated by molecular
structure. EVERYTHING is made up from atoms (electrons, protons
and neutrons) in a constant state of motion. The logical definitions being
repeated in this thread appear to be no different than theologians attempting to
explain life from a spiritual standpoint.

Mankind's intellect, logic, and fear are the barriers to greater understanding of life.
The mushroom (psilocybin) helps to lower said barriers. In essence. I maintain
the universe exists within each and every being. The more humanity begins to
explore the inner universe, without judgment and fear, the more we will be
able to understand the outer universe we all share (with ALL life).

Peace to Everyone,

Peaceful Nomad


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Peaceful_Nomad]
    #811067 - 08/11/02 03:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Everything is living if you view life from an atomic and sub-atomic standpoint.

Good point.

And I voted "Maybe". I'm not restricting communication to just mushrooms, neither. I think it's possible to communicate with all life, whether it's a tree, mushroom, or animal.


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811143 - 08/11/02 04:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But what if the organism created the molecule for the purposes of communication?

(I knew this fallacious "message in a bottle" would rear its ugly head.)

Well, you are the prescient one, aren't you?

Seriously, the fact that a standard, or common if you prefer, premise would arise in a debate is not anything unusual. Just as I would expect a reductionistic answer to the question. These ideas have been debated before I assume. Fallacious? Ugly head? Yes, well your rhetoric is amusing if that is what you intended (not risibly though). Is the argument fallacious? Let's find out shall we? Ugly is only a preferential term and gives no weight to your argument.

As DMT creates even more powerful imagery than psilocybin and is contained in humans as well as thousands of plant species, who is sending a message to whom?

That's a good question. But as we are talking about mushrooms it only has a small bearing to the issue at hand. It could be related or not.


The fact that we can use electrons to communicate with has little to do with their being.

The electrons are secondary to the patterning. We can use morse code, light waves, semaphore or smoke signals, but there is an encoded message.

Yes, that's a good point. However, it might not be as simple as that.

I'll make my main points to Sclorch and it might give us a few more things to discuss. I really want your opinions on this.

Cheers,



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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811313 - 08/11/02 06:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What is the function of the chemicals psilocybin and psilocin in the mushrooms? Are they waste products?

This is basically what everyone wants to know. Let me first say that I DON'T know.
I read somewhere that psi. is thought to play a role in the reproductive cycle (signalling? maybe it acts like a hormone). If there are no receptors for psilocybin in the mushroom (which, seeing as it has no CNS, I doubt it would have receptors), then it is probably a by-product of some sort and NOT used for signalling. It could be just a step in some biochemical cascade (maybe the cascade which develops the fruiting body).

As for the MEANING behind the presence of such a chemical in a mushroom... meanings are anthropomorphic- they're byproducts of intention. I'd bet that anyone here, who believes in God, is going to also assume that there is meaning behind the presence of psiloc(yb)in in mushrooms. Everyone else will just have to reserve judgement until some scientist gets around to figuring out psiloc(yb)in's role in the mushroom.


Ok, you old Jamesian fan of Nietzsche you, here's what I think.

Whenever I approach a subject of this kind I like to use an interdisciplinary methodology so as to arrive at the closest approximation of the truth as far as we can ascertain it. The normative fields that intersect with this subject would be; science, philosophy, and religion. Science covers the empirical aspect of it and should in no way be discounted. Philosophy has a great deal to say on the subject of experience/consciouness. And religion covers the mystical aspect of the subject.

With all that said here are a few clues that might produce some interesting dialogue.

The subject of consciousness is a topic for philosophy primarily but science can offer what it knows about neurophysiology. Empirical science should never claim to know all their is to know about consciousness because its paradigm is restricted. Its singular approach is reductionistic and its evidence should only be afforded its due weight.

Can you produce or show me a link to a definitve article on consciousness in a peer-reviewed journal that answers, in totality, WHAT consciousness is?

This may be what is going on:

The chemicals act as a catalyst for a radio receiver. Not everyone's brain is an adequate radio but some of the brains are. The mushrooms have a message to deliver to the world and use the brains of certain subjects to transmit their message to the world.

I think this because of three things.

1. I have a philosophical argument for the immaterial aspect of consciousness which I think is very sound.

2. It dovetails into certain religious doctrines that seem correct.

3. I have met the beings and had experiences that lead me to think this hypothesis is true.

Whatever can be said, it is not up to science alone to answer this question. It can't, and it probably never will.

Please elaborate on the neurophysiological aspect. You seem to know it well and others will prophet from your remarks.

Thanks!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Adamist]
    #811579 - 08/11/02 08:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Everything is living if you view life from an atomic and sub-atomic standpoint.

Good point.


Not really. The discussion was about a biological entity attempting to contact another biological organism. So to refute my point, Nomad tries to re-define organic life against accepted paradigms just to obsfucate? That is hardly a "good point".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #811595 - 08/11/02 08:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The mushrooms have a message to deliver to the world and use the brains of certain subjects to transmit their message to the world

And what is this message? (No Terrence McKenna quotes please!) The facts that much of what is experienced on a deep mushroom trip cannot be brought back (consciously anyway) and that there is no universal message, speaks to me of a totally subjective experience. One man sees demons, another angels; one experiences ecstacy and another pure terror. One sees hope and light; another: Armageddon.

If there is any message it is highly garbled and indistinguishable from noise.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #811599 - 08/11/02 08:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Mr. Mushrooms: Can you produce or show me a link to a definitive article on consciousness in a peer-reviewed journal that answers, in totality, WHAT consciousness is?
C?mon, you don?t need to ask this. We both know there is no ?law of consciousness?.
Besides, this changes nothing.

Please elaborate on the neurophysiological aspect. You seem to know it well and others will prophet from your remarks.

(Have a thing for puns, eh?)
Actually? I?m ALL about the cognitive sciences.
Now then? do you understand this?:

Sclorch: Random is random is random...
Random is patternless. No pattern = no code. No code = no communication.
Diffusion is a random process on the molecular level.
Psilocybin enters the bloodstream via diffusion (and is still subject to the randomizing effects of turbulence in the body's fluids- including blood and synaptic fluid. THERE IS NO CODE. Hence, there is no communication.


I was saving the random argument in case someone tried to bust out with the 1/0 argument against the alphabet. They did, so I had to delve deeper (which sucks, because this isn?t the best way to communicate complex systems like the brain).

For the random argument to work, I must be allowed to reject determinism (hard, soft, whatever?). Since the free will vs. determinism will NEVER be proven and all I have to go on is my perception, I guess one could reject this entire argument and say, ?the mushrooms ARE entities (the creator made them so) and they DO communicate with us because the psiloc(yb)in molecules were set in motion in such a way that all those (non-coding) molecules hit their target receptors at the exact moment it had to. This biochemical ballet was choreographed (read: coded) to initiate a neural cascade that corresponded to the particular received communication which the subject (the tripper) then experienced.?

If you give me free will, you get no Shroomunication?.
If you don?t allow free will, you don?t get credit for being a ?tuner?.


Mr. Mushrooms: The chemicals act as a catalyst for a radio receiver. Not everyone's brain is an adequate radio but some of the brains are. The mushrooms have a message to deliver to the world and use the brains of certain subjects to transmit their message to the world.

Radio receiver? If you?re NOT talking about your fillings, then you have more explaining to do then I. Last I checked, the brain lacks any ability to receive and decipher radio waves (I don?t care what molecules they stick in your head, it?s not a Sony). If you?re being metaphorical, that?s fine? but you still got some splainin? to do.


That's good enough for now.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #811601 - 08/11/02 08:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That's a good question. But as we are talking about mushrooms it only has a small bearing to the issue at hand. It could be related or not.

It is called extrapolation and is frequently used in philosophy. You dismiss this way too lightly. I expected more than a simple brushing aside, but your attitude precludes rather than encourages further discussion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811602 - 08/11/02 08:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Swami: The facts that much of what is experienced on a deep mushroom trip cannot be brought back (consciously anyway) and that there is no universal message, speaks to me of a totally subjective experience.

Damn it... I was saving that one.
Oh well, at least you said it nice and neat.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811608 - 08/11/02 08:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Those weren't my words. I was reading your mind, but then that speaks of a brain as a receiver - oh, never mind...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811618 - 08/11/02 08:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The facts that much of what is experienced on a deep mushroom trip cannot be brought back (consciously anyway) and that there is no universal message

This is complete nonsense. Many people (including me) remember every moment of a mushroom trip. And judging from the Good Friday experiment there certainly is a universal message. I think you'll find most people also feel a deeper connection to nature.

Don't judge everyones experience by your own useless and pathetic experiences. It's like listening to a beginner on the guitar talking about Jimi Hendrix.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (08/11/02 08:38 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811627 - 08/11/02 08:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If there is any message it is highly garbled and indistinguishable from noise.

Once again, you are are using your own useless experience to relate to others. This is deeply flawed. Many people find the message from the mushroom to be absolutely crystal clear.

Mushrooms really didn't work out for you did they. I almost feel sorry for you. What a miserable time you must've had.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #811628 - 08/11/02 08:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Strassman mentioned several cases where his DMT patients could remember very little of what they experienced.

FRIGGIN' DELETED


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Edited by Sclorch (08/12/02 07:45 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811645 - 08/11/02 08:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quit with the peurile and childish comments. I said nothing of the kind. I said many people can remember every moment of a mushroom trip. Nothing about injected DMT. And incidentally many people remembered those trips - otherwise Strassmans book would have been rather short.

Please try and address my points rather than ones you make up to make yourself feel better (was it because I just made you look silly in the K trout thread when you tried to call "unions" "groups"..?)


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #811657 - 08/11/02 09:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Once again, you are are using your own useless experience to relate to others. Don't judge everyones experience by your own useless and pathetic experiences.
Is this what you meant when you spoke of respecting people's experiences? Instead we should form a line to hear of your god-like visions and deep spiritual insight that causes your ego to lash out at anyone who differs from you.

It's like listening to a beginner on the guitar talking about Jimi Hendrix.
No, it's more like listening to you ramble on about a musician unable to face life. Jimi Hendrix killed himself and is NOT the subject of every thread. Get over it. Apparently he got the message that you are talking about and checked out. Who would want to emulate a loser like that?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #811666 - 08/11/02 09:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

FRIGGIN' DELETED


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Edited by Sclorch (08/12/02 07:45 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811677 - 08/11/02 09:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You are showing complete disrespect to everyone who can remember their experiences. Where did you come up with the nonsense that no-one can remember anything? Where do you get off making pronouncments like this? It can only have come from your own experience - which as you can't remember anything about them were little more than useless.

Hendrix is an indicator of our differing abilities. You pick up a guitar tomorrow and you wouldn't come on a message board saying "I have picked up a guitar and I can categorically state that Hendrix was talking nonsense". Yet for some bizarre reason you feel perfectly able to say this about Maria Sabina.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811679 - 08/11/02 09:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Did you READ that book? I did... I have it right here.

So do i. Shall i start taking you through the pages where people describe in great detail there experiences? It comprises the bulk of the book.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #812011 - 08/12/02 04:18 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry about the perceived attitude.

One quick comment for the nonce; Alex wants to fight, period. He makes some good even great points. But the flamefest between him and you and Sclorch makes this thread tedious to read.

As I have known you and Sclorch I would give you the benefit of the doubt that you would rise above the pettiness. Don't engage those aspects. It isn't worth it.

Shoe Polish,


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #812017 - 08/12/02 04:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

One quick comment for the nonce; Alex wants to fight, period. He makes some good even great points. But the flamefest between him and you and Sclorch makes this thread tedious to read.






I agree, no wonder you are called Plato!


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #812091 - 08/12/02 06:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

nah mr mush, no desire for a fight, i simply won't stand for people bullying others with snide remarks. Swami has been ruining threads for a long time now, if anyone starts a thread he doesn't approve of he jumps in with his "You do not wish to hear the truth". Well, he may bully quieter kids into giving up the board but in my opinion the empty wagon makes the most noise.

Don't worry about it. He'll start using his head and having a bit of consideration and empathy for others points of view sooner or later. I'll make sure of it


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblePeaceful_Nomad
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #812139 - 08/12/02 07:09 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Not really. The discussion was about a biological entity attempting to contact another biological organism. So to refute my point, Nomad tries to re-define organic life against accepted paradigms just to obsfucate? That is hardly a "good point".




Atoms comprise molecules, molecules group together to form a cell, cells comprise
tissue, and tissues make up an organism.

How is describing life on an atomic level an attempt at redefining life? If my
intention was to deliberately obscure the main theme of this thread, I would
attempt to confuse fellow shroomerites by utilizing a misspelled transitive verb
at the end of a sentence.

Organisms communicate on many different levels. Physical sensory
communication isn't the only means for exchange of ideas, messages, or
thoughts. In order to understand communication at its base level, one must have
a good understanding of life on its base level.

Peace to Everyone,

Peaceful Nomad


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Peaceful_Nomad]
    #812278 - 08/12/02 08:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Nomad, this is the kind of thing covered in Jeremy Narby's book "The cosmic serpent" where he suggests plant hallucinogens can communicate with human DNA.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #812528 - 08/12/02 10:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Psilocybin enters the bloodstream via diffusion (and is still subject to the randomizing effects of turbulence in the body's fluids- including blood and synaptic fluid. THERE IS NO CODE. Hence, there is no communication. I will argue this no more, I'm right.


I really shouldn't even be bringing up past BS like this, but your use of the phrase "I'm right" compels me to spout off some of my ignorance. Did you ever take into consideration that each psilocin/psilocybin molecule (or particle or whatever the technical term for it is) individually contains this so called 'code' you keep insisting doesn't exists? Think of it like a fractal or something in which any given part contains all the necessary 'stuff' to completely reconstruct the entire pattern/message/whatever in it's entirety. If that's the case then it wouldn't matter how random the psiloc(yb)in enters the body or how random it's absorbed or whatever, all that would matter is that it gets into the body and that there's enough of it there to make us aware of the message. (e.g. looking at a single circle of the Mandelbrot set is hardly enough it see the full beauty of it all, just as a single bit of psilocybin isn't enough to feel the effects...but the more you're exposed to the more you experience)

I'm not saying this is how it works, but I do think it's a possibility. Is it so wrong to be open to things like this?


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinemirrorsaw
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #812559 - 08/12/02 10:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

If T.S. Eliot said that, then it was stolen from William Blake.

The Marriage of Heaven and Hell


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? *EDITED* [Re: mirrorsaw]
    #812598 - 08/12/02 11:14 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Really? Hhmmm...maybe I should look into that.
Uummm...I'm not finding it. Do you have a source?


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Edited by Mystical_Craven (08/12/02 11:25 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #812686 - 08/12/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

He'll start using his head and having a bit of consideration and empathy for others points of view sooner or later. I'll make sure of it







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Offlinemirrorsaw
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #812821 - 08/12/02 01:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not finding it. Do you have a source?

The Marriage of Heaven and Hell:

two of the Proverbs of Hell:

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom

You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough

Not word for word, but I think it's clear where T.S. Eliot got it from. There can be little doubt that he would have read that poem.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: mirrorsaw]
    #812860 - 08/12/02 01:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alright, I see where you're comming from now. For a second there I thought I was misinformed about one of my favorite quotes. I think you're right about TS Elliot getting his ideas from William Blake...but hey, that's part of life right? I mean, if we weren't allowed to scratch off seriel numbers and re-paint this world would be an awefully boring place.


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Edited by Mystical_Craven (08/12/02 01:12 PM)


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Offlinemirrorsaw
journeyman
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #812987 - 08/12/02 01:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

if we weren't allowed to scratch off seriel numbers and re-paint

There is nothing wrong with T.S. Eliot being influenced by other writers. All writers, musicians and artists are influenced by those who came before them.

But actually dude, scratching off serial numbers sounds like it might be immoral and illegal.



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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #813977 - 08/13/02 01:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

nah mr mush, no desire for a fight, i simply won't stand for people bullying others with snide remarks.

Reread the passage in the Bible where my Son speaks of the mote in your brother's eye.


He'll start using his head and having a bit of consideration and empathy for others points of view sooner or later.

I'll make sure of it


You'll make sure of nothing except to tend to your own spiritual growth instead of growing your ego. I will handle all others. It is time that you set an example by displaying this empathy of which you speak.

For as much as you claim to have gotten the message, you have completely missed the mark. Let me restate it clearly:

"Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, you do also to me."


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #814002 - 08/13/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

You'll make sure of nothing except to tend to your own spiritual growth instead of growing your ego


Fuckin aye...when The Lord lays down the law, he lays down the law


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #814249 - 08/13/02 07:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It is time that you set an example by displaying this empathy of which you speak.

I am my brothers keeper and if swami strays from the path I'll bring him back to it


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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