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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811313 -

What is the function of the chemicals psilocybin and psilocin in the mushrooms? Are they waste products?

This is basically what everyone wants to know. Let me first say that I DON'T know.
I read somewhere that psi. is thought to play a role in the reproductive cycle (signalling? maybe it acts like a hormone). If there are no receptors for psilocybin in the mushroom (which, seeing as it has no CNS, I doubt it would have receptors), then it is probably a by-product of some sort and NOT used for signalling. It could be just a step in some biochemical cascade (maybe the cascade which develops the fruiting body).

As for the MEANING behind the presence of such a chemical in a mushroom... meanings are anthropomorphic- they're byproducts of intention. I'd bet that anyone here, who believes in God, is going to also assume that there is meaning behind the presence of psiloc(yb)in in mushrooms. Everyone else will just have to reserve judgement until some scientist gets around to figuring out psiloc(yb)in's role in the mushroom.

Ok, you old Jamesian fan of Nietzsche you, here's what I think.

Whenever I approach a subject of this kind I like to use an interdisciplinary methodology so as to arrive at the closest approximation of the truth as far as we can ascertain it. The normative fields that intersect with this subject would be; science, philosophy, and religion. Science covers the empirical aspect of it and should in no way be discounted. Philosophy has a great deal to say on the subject of experience/consciouness. And religion covers the mystical aspect of the subject.

With all that said here are a few clues that might produce some interesting dialogue.

The subject of consciousness is a topic for philosophy primarily but science can offer what it knows about neurophysiology. Empirical science should never claim to know all their is to know about consciousness because its paradigm is restricted. Its singular approach is reductionistic and its evidence should only be afforded its due weight.

Can you produce or show me a link to a definitve article on consciousness in a peer-reviewed journal that answers, in totality, WHAT consciousness is?

This may be what is going on:

The chemicals act as a catalyst for a radio receiver. Not everyone's brain is an adequate radio but some of the brains are. The mushrooms have a message to deliver to the world and use the brains of certain subjects to transmit their message to the world.

I think this because of three things.

1. I have a philosophical argument for the immaterial aspect of consciousness which I think is very sound.

2. It dovetails into certain religious doctrines that seem correct.

3. I have met the beings and had experiences that lead me to think this hypothesis is true.

Whatever can be said, it is not up to science alone to answer this question. It can't, and it probably never will.

Please elaborate on the neurophysiological aspect. You seem to know it well and others will prophet from your remarks.

Thanks!

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Adamist]
    #811579 -

Everything is living if you view life from an atomic and sub-atomic standpoint.

Good point.

Not really. The discussion was about a biological entity attempting to contact another biological organism. So to refute my point, Nomad tries to re-define organic life against accepted paradigms just to obsfucate? That is hardly a "good point".


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #811595 -

The mushrooms have a message to deliver to the world and use the brains of certain subjects to transmit their message to the world

And what is this message? (No Terrence McKenna quotes please!) The facts that much of what is experienced on a deep mushroom trip cannot be brought back (consciously anyway) and that there is no universal message, speaks to me of a totally subjective experience. One man sees demons, another angels; one experiences ecstacy and another pure terror. One sees hope and light; another: Armageddon.

If there is any message it is highly garbled and indistinguishable from noise.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #811599 -

Mr. Mushrooms: Can you produce or show me a link to a definitive article on consciousness in a peer-reviewed journal that answers, in totality, WHAT consciousness is?
C?mon, you don?t need to ask this. We both know there is no ?law of consciousness?.
Besides, this changes nothing.

Please elaborate on the neurophysiological aspect. You seem to know it well and others will prophet from your remarks.

(Have a thing for puns, eh?)
Actually? I?m ALL about the cognitive sciences.
Now then? do you understand this?:

Sclorch: Random is random is random...
Random is patternless. No pattern = no code. No code = no communication.
Diffusion is a random process on the molecular level.
Psilocybin enters the bloodstream via diffusion (and is still subject to the randomizing effects of turbulence in the body's fluids- including blood and synaptic fluid. THERE IS NO CODE. Hence, there is no communication.

I was saving the random argument in case someone tried to bust out with the 1/0 argument against the alphabet. They did, so I had to delve deeper (which sucks, because this isn?t the best way to communicate complex systems like the brain).

For the random argument to work, I must be allowed to reject determinism (hard, soft, whatever?). Since the free will vs. determinism will NEVER be proven and all I have to go on is my perception, I guess one could reject this entire argument and say, ?the mushrooms ARE entities (the creator made them so) and they DO communicate with us because the psiloc(yb)in molecules were set in motion in such a way that all those (non-coding) molecules hit their target receptors at the exact moment it had to. This biochemical ballet was choreographed (read: coded) to initiate a neural cascade that corresponded to the particular received communication which the subject (the tripper) then experienced.?

If you give me free will, you get no Shroomunication?.
If you don?t allow free will, you don?t get credit for being a ?tuner?.


Mr. Mushrooms: The chemicals act as a catalyst for a radio receiver. Not everyone's brain is an adequate radio but some of the brains are. The mushrooms have a message to deliver to the world and use the brains of certain subjects to transmit their message to the world.

Radio receiver? If you?re NOT talking about your fillings, then you have more explaining to do then I. Last I checked, the brain lacks any ability to receive and decipher radio waves (I don?t care what molecules they stick in your head, it?s not a Sony). If you?re being metaphorical, that?s fine? but you still got some splainin? to do.


That's good enough for now.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #811601 -

That's a good question. But as we are talking about mushrooms it only has a small bearing to the issue at hand. It could be related or not.

It is called extrapolation and is frequently used in philosophy. You dismiss this way too lightly. I expected more than a simple brushing aside, but your attitude precludes rather than encourages further discussion.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811602 -

Swami: The facts that much of what is experienced on a deep mushroom trip cannot be brought back (consciously anyway) and that there is no universal message, speaks to me of a totally subjective experience.

Damn it... I was saving that one.
Oh well, at least you said it nice and neat.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811608 -

Those weren't my words. I was reading your mind, but then that speaks of a brain as a receiver - oh, never mind...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811618 -

The facts that much of what is experienced on a deep mushroom trip cannot be brought back (consciously anyway) and that there is no universal message

This is complete nonsense. Many people (including me) remember every moment of a mushroom trip. And judging from the Good Friday experiment there certainly is a universal message. I think you'll find most people also feel a deeper connection to nature.

Don't judge everyones experience by your own useless and pathetic experiences. It's like listening to a beginner on the guitar talking about Jimi Hendrix.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (08/11/02 06:38 PM)

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811627 -

If there is any message it is highly garbled and indistinguishable from noise.

Once again, you are are using your own useless experience to relate to others. This is deeply flawed. Many people find the message from the mushroom to be absolutely crystal clear.

Mushrooms really didn't work out for you did they. I almost feel sorry for you. What a miserable time you must've had.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #811628 -

Strassman mentioned several cases where his DMT patients could remember very little of what they experienced.

FRIGGIN' DELETED


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (08/12/02 05:45 AM)

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811645 -

Quit with the peurile and childish comments. I said nothing of the kind. I said many people can remember every moment of a mushroom trip. Nothing about injected DMT. And incidentally many people remembered those trips - otherwise Strassmans book would have been rather short.

Please try and address my points rather than ones you make up to make yourself feel better (was it because I just made you look silly in the K trout thread when you tried to call "unions" "groups"..?)


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #811657 -

Once again, you are are using your own useless experience to relate to others. Don't judge everyones experience by your own useless and pathetic experiences.
Is this what you meant when you spoke of respecting people's experiences? Instead we should form a line to hear of your god-like visions and deep spiritual insight that causes your ego to lash out at anyone who differs from you.

It's like listening to a beginner on the guitar talking about Jimi Hendrix.
No, it's more like listening to you ramble on about a musician unable to face life. Jimi Hendrix killed himself and is NOT the subject of every thread. Get over it. Apparently he got the message that you are talking about and checked out. Who would want to emulate a loser like that?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #811666 -

FRIGGIN' DELETED


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (08/12/02 05:45 AM)

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #811677 -

You are showing complete disrespect to everyone who can remember their experiences. Where did you come up with the nonsense that no-one can remember anything? Where do you get off making pronouncments like this? It can only have come from your own experience - which as you can't remember anything about them were little more than useless.

Hendrix is an indicator of our differing abilities. You pick up a guitar tomorrow and you wouldn't come on a message board saying "I have picked up a guitar and I can categorically state that Hendrix was talking nonsense". Yet for some bizarre reason you feel perfectly able to say this about Maria Sabina.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #811679 -

Did you READ that book? I did... I have it right here.

So do i. Shall i start taking you through the pages where people describe in great detail there experiences? It comprises the bulk of the book.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #812011 -

Sorry about the perceived attitude.

One quick comment for the nonce; Alex wants to fight, period. He makes some good even great points. But the flamefest between him and you and Sclorch makes this thread tedious to read.

As I have known you and Sclorch I would give you the benefit of the doubt that you would rise above the pettiness. Don't engage those aspects. It isn't worth it.

Shoe Polish,

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #812017 -

In reply to:
One quick comment for the nonce; Alex wants to fight, period. He makes some good even great points. But the flamefest between him and you and Sclorch makes this thread tedious to read.





I agree, no wonder you are called Plato!


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #812091 -

nah mr mush, no desire for a fight, i simply won't stand for people bullying others with snide remarks. Swami has been ruining threads for a long time now, if anyone starts a thread he doesn't approve of he jumps in with his "You do not wish to hear the truth". Well, he may bully quieter kids into giving up the board but in my opinion the empty wagon makes the most noise.

Don't worry about it. He'll start using his head and having a bit of consideration and empathy for others points of view sooner or later. I'll make sure of it


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #812139 -

In reply to:
Not really. The discussion was about a biological entity attempting to contact another biological organism. So to refute my point, Nomad tries to re-define organic life against accepted paradigms just to obsfucate? That is hardly a "good point".



Atoms comprise molecules, molecules group together to form a cell, cells comprise
tissue, and tissues make up an organism.

How is describing life on an atomic level an attempt at redefining life? If my
intention was to deliberately obscure the main theme of this thread, I would
attempt to confuse fellow shroomerites by utilizing a misspelled transitive verb
at the end of a sentence.

Organisms communicate on many different levels. Physical sensory
communication isn't the only means for exchange of ideas, messages, or
thoughts. In order to understand communication at its base level, one must have
a good understanding of life on its base level.

Peace to Everyone,

Peaceful Nomad


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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Peaceful_Nomad]
    #812278 -

Nomad, this is the kind of thing covered in Jeremy Narby's book "The cosmic serpent" where he suggests plant hallucinogens can communicate with human DNA.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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