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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: thePatient]
    #809606 - 08/10/02 08:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

As psilocybin can be produced in a lab and have the same effect as a mushroom trip, that shoots down the "alien life form communicating through our nervous system" as well as the ridiculous "mushrooms choose people" hypothesis, as the lab-produced molecule did not come from a living organism.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #809744 - 08/10/02 09:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm just waiting for someone to bungle on the neurophysiology.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #809761 - 08/10/02 09:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why does the fact that it can be reproduced in a lab negate anything? You'll soon be able to reproduce human beings in a lab. So what? The fact is it exists in nature for no known reason and it has extraordinary effects on human beings including experiences of alien contact.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #809765 - 08/10/02 09:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe it has no purpose. Maybe its just there. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #809773 - 08/10/02 09:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think we have to be open-minded about the possiblities tho.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #809782 - 08/10/02 09:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And that is one of them. I dont think you can provide any concrete proof that mushrooms have any form of consciousness.. Saying 'some people think its just getting fucked up and some people gain insight' is not concrete proof. How COULD mushrooms "choose" people?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #809791 - 08/10/02 09:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The mushrooms act in conjunction with the human being they are interacting with. Just like not everyone who plays a guitar will be Jimi Hendrix, not everyone who takes mushrooms will reach the same level. Some people have profound experiences, some just see trees melt. Clearly the quality of the man affects the quality of the experience.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblethePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
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Registered: 07/07/02
Posts: 3,289
Loc: Indiana
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #809900 - 08/10/02 10:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think the mushrooms would have anything intelligent to say with such a primitive alphabet.

Dont quote me on it, but doesnt the Hawaiin alphabet have only 14 characters? True, that is a lot more than 3, but not as much as 26.
Also, if you break down what a computer is based upon, it comes down to the binary sytem. Which is based upon 1s, and 0s. So communicating through the internet, everything you see on your screen, even when you download your porn, so you can whack it...its all based upon 1s, and 0s. That is 2 characters, which in turn create the 26 characters in our alphabet and a whole lot more information.

Mushrooms contain psilocybin, psilocin (it's direct analog), and sometimes baeocystin
Please explain this further. How do you interpret chemicals in the mushrooms as an alphabet?

Edit: typo


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


Edited by thePatient (08/10/02 11:53 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #809965 - 08/10/02 11:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Communication requires a code

Who told you that? You ever seen dolphins helping out handicapped kids? I don't think they share any form of alphabet whatsoever and yet it's the most powerful healing communication many of those kids will ever have in their entire lives. Dogs are often taken around hospitals because the contact and communication they have with ill people is more healing and powerful than any amount of talking. Communication can take many forms.

Also check out Jeremy Narbys "The cosmic serpent" for ways in which plants could communicate with us.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (08/10/02 11:50 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #809971 - 08/10/02 11:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Okay I will suppose that communication requires a code. But how do you know you can see or even recognize this code? It could very well operate on levels unobservable by modern science's methods.

Just because science says something is true doesn't mean it is absolutely true. Don't be afraid to push the envelope once in awhile, Sclorch. Unless I'm mistaken, your the one that made a few posts awhile back about the problem with believers is that they fear the unknown.

Face it, you nor modern science doesn't know everything about mushrooms, or anything for that matter. Anything is possible.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Adamist]
    #809980 - 08/11/02 12:04 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Having a code tends to restrict and limit communication - language is a very, very poor and limiting form of communication.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblethePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
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Registered: 07/07/02
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #809993 - 08/11/02 12:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Having a code tends to restrict and limit communication - language is a very, very poor and limiting form of communication.

I agree. If we could communicate psychicly (using visions), i dont believe that would have any type of code. And people use body language to communicate...not sure if a code is the basis of that.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


Edited by thePatient (08/11/02 12:18 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810105 - 08/11/02 05:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why does the fact that it can be reproduced in a lab negate anything?
It negates the fact than an organism that came from the stars is trying to communicate with you because:

1. a molecule is not an organism.
2. the lab molecule did not come from an organism.

The fact is it exists in nature for no known reason...
Our ignorance of it's function can hardly be a pointer to it's purpose.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #810313 - 08/11/02 08:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

1. a molecule is not an organism.
2. the lab molecule did not come from an organism.

If an alien crash-landed tomorrow do you think we'd be unable to recreate cells from his body in a lab? If you can recreate it in a lab does this mean the alien can't exist? We can create human cells in the lab, following your logic this means human beings cannot be communicating with us either as human cells can be created in a lab.

And of course when you start understanding the latest ideas of the human mind operating at the quantum level - where atomic particles can exist anywhere in the universe independent of time or space, your "communion" ideas of alien contact become irrelevant.

"Our ignorance of it's function can hardly be a pointer to it's purpose"

That's fine, but this is a discussion board and we're here to exchange ideas. If you want to sit on your ass until science answers the meaning of the psilocybin then fine. Go ahead. But seeing as it's illegal and there is no hope of any research being done for many years yet we will all be dead by then. I'd like to explore possibilities while I'm still alive.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Swami]
    #810358 - 08/11/02 08:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex: Why does the fact that it can be reproduced in a lab negate anything?

Swami: It negates the fact than an organism that came from the stars is trying to communicate with you because:

1. a molecule is not an organism.
2. the lab molecule did not come from an organism.


Me: Yes, that is true. But what if the organism created the molecule for the purposes of communication? The fact that we can use electrons to communicate with has little to do with their being. Your answer seems reductionistic.

Alex: The fact is it exists in nature for no known reason...

Swami: Our ignorance of it's function can hardly be a pointer to it's purpose.

Me: Yes, that is true as well. But then we get into teleology and science rebuffs the invasion of their sacred truths by it at times.

We do know/assume that certain characteristics of organisms exist for certain reasons. The purpose of fangs is to bite into things like a claw. The purpose of the scent of a skunk is to repel attackers.

What is the function of the chemicals psilocybin and psilocin in the mushrooms? Are they waste products? I do not think we have a clue why they are in the mushrooms.

I may be making a categorical error here. I am aware of that. But I am also painfully aware that I do not know for sure.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #810468 - 08/11/02 10:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But what if the organism created the molecule for the purposes of communication?
(I knew this fallacious "message in a bottle" would rear its ugly head.) As DMT creates even more powerful imagery than psilocybin and is contained in humans as well as thousands of plant species, who is sending a message to whom?

The fact that we can use electrons to communicate with has little to do with their being.
The electrons are secondary to the patterning. We can use morse code, light waves, semaphore or smoke signals, but there is an encoded message.

The psilocybin molecule, by itself has insufficient data to encode more than a simplistic one word message. A large random group of such molecules provides for no additional patterning whatsoever.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: ]
    #810476 - 08/11/02 10:06 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What is the function of the chemicals psilocybin and psilocin in the mushrooms? Are they waste products?

This is basically what everyone wants to know. Let me first say that I DON'T know.
I read somewhere that psi. is thought to play a role in the reproductive cycle (signalling? maybe it acts like a hormone). If there are no receptors for psilocybin in the mushroom (which, seeing as it has no CNS, I doubt it would have receptors), then it is probably a by-product of some sort and NOT used for signalling. It could be just a step in some biochemical cascade (maybe the cascade which develops the fruiting body).

As for the MEANING behind the presence of such a chemical in a mushroom... meanings are anthropomorphic- they're byproducts of intention. I'd bet that anyone here, who believes in God, is going to also assume that there is meaning behind the presence of psiloc(yb)in in mushrooms. Everyone else will just have to reserve judgement until some scientist gets around to figuring out psiloc(yb)in's role in the mushroom.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810496 - 08/11/02 10:18 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If an alien crash-landed tomorrow do you think we'd be unable to recreate cells from his body in a lab?
No - and there is no relevance to anything I posted.

If you can recreate it in a lab does this mean the alien can't exist?
Huh?

We can create human cells in the lab,
Sorry, we cannot. Cloning is not creating, but copying.

following your logic this means human beings cannot be communicating with us either as human cells can be created in a lab.
This does not follow at all and is not in any way related to my logic. We communicate using the entire organism, not a single molecule.

...your "communion" ideas of alien contact become irrelevant.
I have no communion ideas of alien contact. You must be reading the posts of a parallel-dimension Swami...

That's fine, but this is a discussion board and we're here to exchange ideas.
Some of us are. Others are here to fashion an entire thread around attempting to put down a fellow-shroomerite.

If you want to sit on your ass...
Why I do or don't want is, as usual, irrelevant to the thread, but seems you can't directly address any points made without including such puerile comments.

But seeing as it's illegal...
The legality or illegality has nothing to do with your fantastic and totally insubstantiated hypothesis. People do their own research regardless.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Sclorch]
    #810501 - 08/11/02 10:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder, why havent you replied to my question : How do you interpret chemicals in the mushrooms as an alphabet?

I asked it in all sincerity. Maybe you felt overflowed by the replies on your "not enough characters to make an alphabet" theory. Thats understandable.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Anonymous

Re: Do mushrooms choose people? [Re: Xlea321]
    #810513 - 08/11/02 10:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I still wanna know the mechanism of communication.. I ingest mushrooms, psilocybin enters my brain and I hallucinate.. How is this communication?


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