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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685291 -

krypto2000 said:
Republicans own most of the prison interest as well as law enforcement and they're less informed about the reality of marijuana with regard to a lack of negative effects, why would they decriminalize weed?


I just said why Republicans would be interested in decriminalizing marijuana. The Libertarian wing of the party is more interested in personal liberty than Reagan style Republicans.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: christopera]
    #25685301 -

christopera said:
krypto2000 said:
Republicans own most of the prison interest as well as law enforcement and they're less informed about the reality of marijuana with regard to a lack of negative effects, why would they decriminalize weed?


Because the Republitarians said so.

The American Libertarian movement is a joke. When will we admit that?


A joke? It's not a very funny joke. They have had an incredible influence on the Republican party, far greater than the Bernie-left has had on it's party, though that gap has been, and will continue to be bridged with each election cycle, from here on.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/17/18 02:30 PM)

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25685308 -

Yeah, I'd agree there's nothing funny about it.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685315 -

I don't know. I kind of find some amusement in it. It might be a dark amusement, but amusement remains. I especially like when people tell me they are libertarians and then act like the "party" is doing something for them. I get a kick out of that.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: christopera]
    #25685339 -

In some local situations I find it humerous I guess, but in the grand scheme I find it quite troubling that so many people actually think libertarianism is a valid approach; these people have a small voice, but they still shape actual policy that affects you and I.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25685419 -

krypto2000 said:
In some local situations I find it humerous I guess, but in the grand scheme I find it quite troubling that so many people actually think libertarianism is a valid approach; these people have a small voice, but they still shape actual policy that affects you and I.


Libertarianism has a wide range of appeal, and the good ideas that it espouses are quite good. Most budding political buffs go through a 'Libertarian phase'. I consider it an initiation into the world of political theory. The ideas are simple, and easy to grasp, and on their face, some of them are quite excellent. As one grows and learns, they will hopefully recant their Libertarian doctrine, for something more intellectually informed.

The Libertarian views on personal Liberty are all views that I hold, with the exception of their views on taxation. As the core principles are more wildly interpreted, and expanded to the extreme, to say taxation is theft, or that the force necessary to impose taxation is an infringement on a persons personal liberties, etc... They become harder for an informed population to endorse.

However, the 'No Harm Principle', for instance, is a great ideal to hold. It is the reason that a portion of the Libertarian wing has become much less hawkish than they once were. It probably a significant part of the reason that Donald Trump is even considering taking some modest measures of prison reform (His discussion with the great intellectual of our time, Kanye West, aside).

American Libertarianism is a crossbreed between left-wing ideals, and conservative fiscal policy. At its most extreme, it shares a lot of common ground with Anarchism, and that is quite problematic. On-the-whole, I think it has done at least as much good for American politics, as bad.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25685455 -

I agree with all of that; my problem is as you say yourself, it's a naive view that people often see merit in when they are just entering politics and grow out of as they acquire more knowledge. If a high schooler believes in libertarianism that's fine and reasonable, if an elected representative does however then that to me is alarming.

It is similar to anarchism as well, and anarchism is something I personally identify with. I am not however naive enough to believe that anarchism is an actual viable model; anarchism itself will quite quickly run counter to anarchism. That doesn't mean it has no good ideas though so I'll say things like, "I'm more of an anarchist on this topic" as opposed to a black and white, "an anarchist system would be better." To have "libertarian views" is functional and realistic, to, "support libertarian" is not.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25685468 -

I prefer a Libertarian elected official to a Reagan Republican, in a position like the Senate, or the House. Not so much for more powerful positions, such as governor, or president. The reason I say that, is because they are willing to cross the aisle on many left wing positions, and as long as they don't hold enough seats, they will not be capable of imposing their more wild, and uniquely libertarian ideas.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25685482 -

I agree with that too, but I also view it as a symptom of the disease rather than a real solution to the problems. It's like how I would prefer a gang thug to be police chief over some asshole elected by rich people. It's not that I think in an ideal world that thug would make a good police cheif, but because our laws and justice system are so corrupt I feel he would disrespect the unjust laws that align more with my views than the rich puppet. The way to actually fix the problem though would be to fix the laws and justice system.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: Enlil]
    #25685851 -

Enlil said:
XUL said:
If Trump was smart, he would run 2020 with decriminalization of marijuana as a promise.


That's a great idea.  It's the best way for him to convince the hard right that he has no intention of decriminalizing marijuana.



I think we’ll see lying to the FBI decriminalized first


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: koods]
    #25688982 -

According to this new study our after tax income will decrease by 0.33% due to the additional cost of goods with these tarrifs. This is the kind of pertinent question the study Falcon linked failed to analyze, saying aluminum prices increase 10% and that we haven't had a net loss in jobs doesn't prove "no negative effects have been seen."

To fairly conclude thst you would have to look for them. They did not prove the projections wrong although the way they compared them to actual gains facetiously made it seem as though they did. In reality we could have lost 300,000 jobs and the lowest income earners have to pay an additional 0.33% effective tax. I and the rest of America couldn't care less about 3,000 nee jobs within the aluminum industry when we've lost 300,000 other jobs and are paying more in taxes.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-tariffs-hit-middle-and-low-income-earners-most/

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25689321 -

krypto2000 said:
According to this new study our after tax income will decrease by 0.33% due to the additional cost of goods with these tarrifs. This is the kind of pertinent question the study Falcon linked failed to analyze, saying aluminum prices increase 10% and that we haven't had a net loss in jobs doesn't prove "no negative effects have been seen."


I mentioned the 10% increase in aluminum prices, and that obviously would increase the price of goods.  I'm glad you found a study that estimates how much that impacts consumers; that's useful information.

Of course, that information came from an anti-tax website, so they're not going to include any of the positive effects, like people having more jobs, more money being spent in the economy, less welfare spending by the Government, etc., so we still don't really know if there is an overall negative effect.

Again, we already knew that prices would go up.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25689352 -

It hasn't been proven that we do have more jobs though is my point. We have 3,000 or whatever aluminum jobs, the rest of the jobs may or may not have happened without the tariffs so the conclude they're either because of them or that they would have happened otherwise without backing the claims with evidence is specious.

I see no reason that beyond the jobs directly related to aluminium manufacture, the 3,000 or so, that we would have 10's, much less 100's of thousands of new jobs. How do you explain that? If aluminium were a new market then quite possibly, but it's not, the only thing that is a new market is the production of aluminium, all of the other markets that rely on aluminium, it stands to reason, would suffer due to increased cost.

At the end of the day the best we can say is that we don't know how jobs were affected, besides adding 3,000 jobs directly related, as afaik no study has been done to effectively analyze that. So all we can conclude is that there are 3,000 jobs added to the economy and the average person is paying ~0.25% more in taxes. So to all but 3,000 people the tariffs have likely had a negative impact.

edit: And what evidence is there of more money being spent in the economy? There's more money being spent on aluminium it's fair to say, but the economy? The stock market has lost all of the gain from the last ~15 months or so now, what metric indicates the economy has gained?

Edited by krypto2000 (12/19/18 01:40 PM)

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25689428 -

He means that the 3000 industry workers will spend most of their pay, i think.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25689471 -

krypto2000 said:
I see no reason that beyond the jobs directly related to aluminium manufacture, the 3,000 or so, that we would have 10's, much less 100's of thousands of new jobs. How do you explain that?


No one said that "we would have 10's, much less 100's of thousands of new jobs", why do you keep misrepresenting what was said?  It was said that "there is no evidence of the negative downstream effects". 

krypto2000 said:
At the end of the day the best we can say is that we don't know how jobs were affected, besides adding 3,000 jobs directly related, as afaik no study has been done to effectively analyze that. So all we can conclude is that there are 3,000 jobs added to the economy and the average person is paying ~0.25% more in taxes. So to all but 3,000 people the tariffs have likely had a negative impact.


I agree, except those people are spending their newly earned money which would have a positive impact.  You're right, we don't know what the net effect is, which also means we don't know that the net effect is negative.

ballsalsa said:
krypto2000 said:
edit: And what evidence is there of more money being spent in the economy? There's more money being spent on aluminium it's fair to say, but the economy? The stock market has lost all of the gain from the last ~15 months or so now, what metric indicates the economy has gained?


He means that the 3000 industry workers will spend most of their pay, i think.


Exactly.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25689511 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
krypto2000 said:
I see no reason that beyond the jobs directly related to aluminium manufacture, the 3,000 or so, that we would have 10's, much less 100's of thousands of new jobs. How do you explain that?


No one said that "we would have 10's, much less 100's of thousands of new jobs", why do you keep misrepresenting what was said?  It was said that "there is no evidence of the negative downstream effects". 


The article concluded that there were no signs of lost jobs, they did this by comparing predictions of gross losses to measured net gains. Apples and oranges; they draw a false conclusion. A net gain does not show there has been no gross loss which is what they claim to demonstrate.

Quote:
krypto2000 said:
At the end of the day the best we can say is that we don't know how jobs were affected, besides adding 3,000 jobs directly related, as afaik no study has been done to effectively analyze that. So all we can conclude is that there are 3,000 jobs added to the economy and the average person is paying ~0.25% more in taxes. So to all but 3,000 people the tariffs have likely had a negative impact.


I agree, except those people are spending their newly earned money which would have a positive impact.  You're right, we don't know what the net effect is, which also means we don't know that the net effect is negative.


Exactly. I'm not arguing there's been a net loss of jobs, I'm disputing their lack of evidence to claim there are hasn't been one.

Quote:
ballsalsa said:
krypto2000 said:
edit: And what evidence is there of more money being spent in the economy? There's more money being spent on aluminium it's fair to say, but the economy? The stock market has lost all of the gain from the last ~15 months or so now, what metric indicates the economy has gained?


He means that the 3000 industry workers will spend most of their pay, i think.


Exactly.


Sure they will, but how does that offset the negatives of the tax to everyone? Assuming these people are paid $100,000/yr, which they surely are not, and that everyone cent they earn is equally distributed amongst americans, which it won't be, instead of primarily going to the wealthy, which it surely will, they would be generating $300,000,000 for the economy.

If everyone loses 0.25% due to additional taxes however, which on average they have (or there abouts) that's $12,000,000,000 that is no longer entering the economy and unlike the aluminium workers pay which may go into the average americans pockets that money does come directly out of each one of our pockets. That difference is a factor of 40. I'd call that a pretty negative impact.

Edited by krypto2000 (12/19/18 03:13 PM)

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25689563 -

You can’t make more aluminum without raising energy costs. Who do you think pays when you have more demand for electricity and no new supply?

The entire reason there isn’t an American aluminum industry anymore is because it is cheaper to make
Aluminum in places with abundant hydro power. I hope this aluminum production is happening in places with hydro or you are just burning even more coal.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000]
    #25689605 -

krypto2000 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No one said that "we would have 10's, much less 100's of thousands of new jobs", why do you keep misrepresenting what was said?  It was said that "there is no evidence of the negative downstream effects". 


A net gain does not show there has been no gross loss which is what they claim to demonstrate.


No, they do not claim that; quit mis-stating what other people are saying.  They claim "there is no evidence of the negative downstream effects".

krypto2000 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You're right, we don't know what the net effect is, which also means we don't know that the net effect is negative.


Exactly. I'm not arguing there's been a net loss of jobs, I'm disputing their lack of evidence to claim there are hasn't been one.


Again, they're not claiming that.  They're claiming "there is no evidence of the negative downstream effects".

krypto2000 said:
Assuming these people are paid $100,000/yr, which they surely are not, and that everyone cent they earn is equally distributed amongst americans, which it won't be, instead of primarily going to the wealthy, which it surely will, they would be generating $300,000,000 for the economy.

If everyone loses 0.25% due to additional taxes however, which on average they have (or there abouts) that's $12,000,000,000 that is no longer entering the economy and unlike the aluminium workers pay which may go into the average americans pockets that money does come directly out of each one of our pockets. That difference is a factor of 40. I'd call that a pretty negative impact.


That's a pretty decent argument, except people aren't losing 0.25% due to a tax, but rather due to spending more for aluminum products, so that money isn't actually being taken out of the economy.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25689735 -

That money isn't collected downstream as a tax, it's incorporated into the cost of the goods themselves, but upstream it's being collected to offset the tax. Therefore it id going to tax :shrug:.

As to no negative effects you seem to both admit that they did not adequately look for negative effects yet then contend it's meaningful that they didn't find any. Both things cannot be true.

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Re: Mexican Nationalism, protectionism, and Catholicism: what leftists hate [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25690195 -

More morality from Xuls favorite religion

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-illinois-attorney-general-catholic-priest-abuse-20181219-story,amp.html

Quote:
A scathing report from Attorney General Lisa Madigan finds the number of Catholic priests accused of sexual abuse against children in Illinois is much higher than previously acknowledged.

The report said accusations have been leveled against 690 priests, while Catholic officials have publicly identified only 185 clergy with credible allegations against them.


690 priests in just one state. What about the other 499?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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