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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113006 - 12/05/02 08:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they
have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the
poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to
support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole
concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against
my will, and if I am poor(which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the
street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Most truly "rich" people got that way because they had opportunity that others did not.


There is some truth to that. People who have large financial resources to begin
with, do have a "head-start" on other people. But, keep in mind that America is a
country where you can do or accomplish anything you want to, if you only put
your mind to it. You don't have to be rich to have a good idea. You don't have to
be rich to have initiative. You don't have to be rich to be successful. And, in
America, you are not required to strive to be rich. You can do whatever you
want. If you want to live on the street, go ahead and do it. If you want to become
a doctor, go ahead and do it.


If more of these people had access to more opportunity, then the finacial base would be altered.

Every American, no matter how "disadvantaged" has access to opportunity, but
usually they are too busy bitching about how they are perennial victims and how
they have it so "tough", to actually accomplish anything.


More people could afford to pay more for stuff, and so the rich would be less rich because their money would be worth less.


huh? You obviously do not understand a simple concept of economics. In a free-market economy(where people are allowed to own private property, where they are allowed to spend their money in any way they want to, where they are allowed to earn their money in any way they want to, etc..) if you were to infuse the poor with money, the prices of everything would go up, because the poor could afford to pay more for stuff, which would negate any increase in their income.


Conversely, because the rich can afford to pay more, prices are elevated for everyone, this is most obviously true for things such as real estate.


You make it sound as if this society has tons and tons of privileged rich people
and tons and tons of poor people. There are a lot of middle-class people. There are very few rich people, and when something has a high price on it, it is that way because it is valuable, and the people who own it(whoever that may be) has a right, because they own it, to determine how much it is worth.


ad into this the fact that the rich have the power to decide how much money to pay these people for their labor, and wish to pay them as little as possible, and thus as a consequence profit unfairly in most cases.

So you see, the rich are already mooching off the poor.

Not all business owners are "greedy rich capitalists" who take delight in keeping the working man down. Most businesses in this country are small and run by
working-class average people.

And if a person does work for one of these companies that are owned by rich people(by the way, the rich person is there because they put themselves there with their own effort, and they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor) they have a right to organize, make demands, and strike in order to get concessions that they feel they are entitled to.


At the same time it is better to use the money that was "mooched" from the poor to provide more opportunity.


Forcefully taking money away from people that earned it. Redistributing it to people who didn't earn it. i.e. socialism ...No thanks.


Anyone who is willing to work should be able to, and should recieve enough to live a reasonable life, even if funds have to be redistributed in order to make this happen.


That's the thing. Not everyone who is capable of working or supporting themself does work. A lot of them are lazy or incompetent. Why should I be forced to shoulder the burden of providing them with services?

Whereever you are in life, you put yourself there or you let yourself remain there.

RandalFlagg



Edited by RandalFlagg (12/05/02 08:53 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113019 - 12/05/02 08:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Do you seriously believe that the only reason there are poor people in the US and other capitalist countries is down to the fact that they havent got off their backsides to change their situation and that is the only thing holding them back?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1113035 - 12/05/02 09:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Do you seriously believe that the only reason there are poor people in the US and other capitalist countries is down to the fact that they havent got off their backsides to change their situation and that is the only thing holding them back?


That is not the only reason, but it is a big part of it.

Keep in mind that the "poor" of America often have roofs over their heads, TV's, and cars. Compare this to many other countries where "poor" means that you go hungry in a delapidated building with no electricity or water, in a crime-infested third-world slum, where you will probably die before the age of thirty.


RandalFlagg


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113160 - 12/05/02 09:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is not the only reason, but it is a big part of it.

And don't tell me, corporate executives are all soooo hard working? Makes you wonder why they need so much corporate welfare doesn't it. Remember the legendary "privatisation" of the railways in England where the government handed over our railways to a bunch of corporate tossers (making many of them millionaires overnight) who commenced to fleece every penny they could out of the gravy train before they ran the industry into meltdown. Yes, what wonderful, hard-working people corporate executives are.

I think you'll find the average american worker works harder than any corporate executive could possibly imagine. For a hundreth of the pay. Corporate executives arn't called "fat cats" because they work hard.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113310 - 12/05/02 10:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if you were to infuse the poor with money, the prices of everything would go up, because the poor could afford to pay more for stuff, which would negate any increase in their income

It would negate a small fraction of the increase, but not the entire thing.

I wasn't talking about America. In america, if you are poor you either chose to be, you are handicapped in some way, or you are a child who doesn't have the choice not to be poor.It does however apply to most poorer countries.

I used to bust my ass for $3.25 an hour. Minimum wage is now over six dollars, and you can make more money playing video games on the internet than I did at my first job. I think minimum wage is a good Idea, so are unions, even though I've never been in one, or worked anywhere that had one.


by the way, the rich person is there because they put themselves there with their own effort, and they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor

They enjoy alot of people's fruits. They've enjoyed most of my fruits most of my life. I put them there as much as they did.


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1113318 - 12/05/02 10:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"i was referring to the leaders who convinced the people to hijack the planes. it's funny how these guys always say that it is heroic to die for allah and that you will go straight to heaven for it. yet you never see any of them doing it."

nor is bush out there heroically going to war
leaders lead and soldiers shot/getshot.
if a nation/organization's leaders kept dying in battle, they wouldn't get very far.


--------------------
-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113321 - 12/05/02 10:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

For everyone who belives wealth is endowed upon the lucky, remember some of the so called "robber barons of late 1800s and early 1900s. Men such as Andrew Carnegie worked themselves up from the poorer class (which was much more poor and worse of in all) to become multi-millionaires.

My grandfather on my mother's side immigrated to America with a single paycheck from a poorly paying job, which was stolen from him along with his wallet his second day here, at the YMCA. He worked and worked, but never made much. What little he did make, he invested in the stock market and grew his money to a sum large enough to put all 5 of his grand children through college, and leave all three of his children fairly substantial sums of money.

My Dad worked up from the middle-lower class after very little education. Through hard work, he made enough to go through vocational schools and now is able to support our family, go on vacations, and he enjoys his job.

The gap between the "rich" and the "poor" is simply propoganda to pass legislation that takes money from hard working middle class people to some alcoholic who stands on the side of the road asking for money. Fortunately, the American people as a majority haven't bought this... yet.

Also, when you say that America is cowardly because we bomb countries from above and don't send in troops, you are mistaken. We sent hundreds of special forces troops into Afghanistan to bring down the Taliban.

You seem to think war is just a game, and if you don't play by the accepted standards, you're cowardly. The British thought the American revolutionaries were cowardly because they used guerilla warfare. Rather than losing the amount of lives that would be lost in an all out ground war, we decide to save lives on BOTH sides by bombing selected targets and eliminating others through the use of special forces.


Edited by stonedfish (12/05/02 02:00 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113531 - 12/05/02 11:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


That is not the only reason, but it is a big part of it.



And don't tell me, corporate executives are all soooo hard working? Makes you wonder why they need so much corporate welfare doesn't it. Remember the legendary "privatisation" of the railways in England where the government handed over our railways to a bunch of corporate tossers (making many of them millionaires overnight) who commenced to fleece every penny they could out of the gravy train before they ran the industry into meltdown. Yes, what wonderful, hard-working people corporate executives are.


People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives.


I think you'll find the average american worker works harder than any corporate executive could possibly imagine. For a hundreth of the pay. Corporate executives arn't called "fat cats" because they work hard.


Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard
they work? You are basing the assumption of all executives being "fat cats" on
your Leftish class biases.

My grandmother was married to a CEO of a major company(they have since divorced). I saw firsthand how hard CEO's work. He worked AT LEAST eighty hours a week. He hardly ever had time for any leisure. He busted his ass to get where he was, and he busted his ass to stay where he was. Is that the life for me? Hell no. I would rather be poor than work as hard as he did and go through
as much stress as he did. But, he made his choices, just like you can make yours.



RandalFlagg


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113557 - 12/05/02 11:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


by the way, the rich person is there because they put themselves there with their own effort, and they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor


They enjoy alot of people's fruits. They've enjoyed most of my fruits most of my life. I put them there as much as they did.


I don't understand what you are saying here.

RandalFlagg


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113626 - 12/05/02 11:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

They don't just profit from their own labor, they proffit from the labor done by me and others. You seem to think they did it themselves, but they USED other people to get where they are. In America that use is usualy reasonably compensated, but none of them are entirely "self made" unless they never hired an employee, and did all the work themselves, and even then you have to give some of the credit to their customers/clients.

That's how you get rich, not so much proffiting from your own fruits, but from proffiting off the fruits of others. It's not a bad thing nessisarily, I hope to do it some day, but I do plan on shairing the collective "fruits" more fairly than many others do.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1113633 - 12/05/02 12:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We sent hundreds of special forces troops into Afghanistan to bring down al-Quaida.

It was the taliban actually. Al-queda are still going strong and all the sep 11 hijackers were from saudi arabia, not Afghanistan. Pretty long way between the two countries..did you miss?

Anyway, you've installed a former oil company consultant as the "interim leader", appointed a former Unocal consultant as the new "ambassador to afghanistan" and a new deal has been signed to start building that oil pipeline through the country that the taliban wouldn't allow you to. Now the oil companies have got what they wanted you won't be hearing much about Afghanistan.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113667 - 12/05/02 12:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard

Yep, I've know more than I ever wished to know unfortunately. Compared to how hard i've know others work, those guys didn't know they were born. 4 hour champagne lunches, days at the races. I would have been embarrassed to call it "work". All you heard them say was bullshit like "I worked 75 hours this week". I tried not to mention that 70 of those hours were spent tossing it off in your office, taking a few phone calls and taking 4 hour luncheons while paying yourself 30 times more than the other workers in the company.

I guarantee you could take any corporate executive in America to a Nike factory in south east asia, tell him to work alongside the 10 year olds and within 6 months he would suffer total physical and mental collapse. The 10 year olds would still be going strong.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113685 - 12/05/02 12:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


They don't just profit from their own labor, they proffit from the labor done by me and others. You seem to think they did it themselves, but they USED other people to get where they are.


They used people to get where they are. Just like people getting public
assistance used other people's money to get where they are. There is a big
difference however. An employee chooses to work for someone. They are not
being "exploited". They are in a symbiotic relationship with the employer. The
employee's effort earns his boss money, and the boss compensates the
employee by giving him money. If the employee does not like the arrangement and
its conditions, he is free to leave.

A person getting public assistance gets their money from people who pay taxes.
The person getting the assistance didn't do anything to earn it. You are taking the
fruits of someone else's effort and distributing it to people who expended no
effort. That, my friend, is USING people.


RandalFlagg





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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113715 - 12/05/02 12:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The employee's effort earns his boss money, and the boss compensates the employee by giving him money

It's just the discrepancy between the two figures that's the problem....

If the employee does not like the arrangement

Life isn't always that simple for many people. There arn't many magical firms that pay 10 times more than every other firm you see. It's called the "race to the bottom". One firm pays a crap wage and every other firm tries to undercut that wage and exploit workers even more. It's all pure short-term profit making.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113777 - 12/05/02 12:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard



Yep, I've know more than I ever wished to know unfortunately. Compared to how hard i've know others work, those guys didn't know they were born. 4 hour champagne lunches, days at the races. I would have been embarrassed to call it "work". All you heard them say was bullshit like "I worked 75 hours this week". I tried not to mention that 70 of those hours were spent tossing it off in your office, taking a few phone calls and taking 4 hour luncheons while paying yourself 30 times more than the other workers in the company.


Well, in my experience, people in high level positions do not have it that easy. My grandma's former husband did not spend his workday sipping champagne. He spent it pouring over financial reports, settling disputes and disagreements within the company, being on call twenty-four hours a day, and doing all kinds of shit. He didn't spend his working life on the golf course, as you seem to think most
executives do.

And, anyway, when it comes to executive type people getting paid a
certain amount, it is because a board of directors has chosen to pay them that.
The board of directors is elected by the shareholders. If the shareholders
think the board of directors is over-paying people, they can get rid of them.
i.e. democracy.


I can throw out another example of well-paid and hard-working people.
My Mom didn't get her degree until late in her life. She worked at low-paying jobs
until she got her degree. These jobs were easy, required very little skill, anybody
could have done them, they were not very stressful, and therefore they didn't pay
well. When she got her degree, she got a job that paid well. But, she had to bust
her ass. She worked at least sixty hours a week, under all kinds of pressure
and deadlines. She has money now, but she does sometimes look back and
realize how much easier her life was before, in certain respects.

Or my friend, who moved to Boston and got an 80,000 a year job. He worked at
least twelve hours a day and was on call at all times. He had money, but he
worked very very hard to get it.

When people earn a certain amount of money, it is usually correlated to the
amount of skill they have in a certain field and the amount of effort they put forth.
Someone who has great talent and ambition in a certain field, and who is able to
provide something that people want or need, deserves to profit from it. Somebody
who does not put forth much effort to become skilled in something, or who does
not try to advance, or who is only capable of doing simple things that anybody
can do, is not going to get paid much. Their labor is not that valuable. They
shouldn't be paid large sums of money for doing something that is easy and not
valuable.



I guarantee you could take any corporate executive in America to a Nike factory in south east asia, tell him to work alongside the 10 year olds and within 6 months he would suffer total physical and mental collapse. The 10 year olds would still be going strong.


I disagree with how American companies go to other countries with lax
environmental and labor laws, so they can take advantage, and profit from it.
Thank Goodness I was born in a country that has environmental and labor laws,
so that I didn't have to work in a sweatshop for 2 cents and hour when I was six
years old.


RandalFlagg



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113779 - 12/05/02 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard

Yep, I've know more than I ever wished to know unfortunately. Compared to how hard i've know others work, those guys didn't know they were born. 4 hour champagne lunches, days at the races. I would have been embarrassed to call it "work". All you heard them say was bullshit like "I worked 75 hours this week". I tried not to mention that 70 of those hours were spent tossing it off in your office, taking a few phone calls and taking 4 hour luncheons while paying yourself 30 times more than the other workers in the company



Why should we believe this falsehood? This is fantasy is straight from the marxists handbook. You are not a very convincing liar.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (12/05/02 12:43 PM)


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Captain Jack]
    #1113784 - 12/05/02 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the difference between bush and bin laden is bin laden convinces someone to hijack a plane full of civillians and crash it into a building full of thousands of innocent civillians. i mean, exactly what nation is he declaring war for anyway? bush uses his military to go after military targets and soldiers. i can't remember the last time we hijacked a plane and crashed it into a building full of innocent bystanders. can someone refresh my memory? :smirk:


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113806 - 12/05/02 12:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think that my 12/05/02 7:40 pm post should serve as an effective answer to both your 7:08 pm and 7:21 pm posts.

RandalFlagg


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113807 - 12/05/02 12:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't believe in giving handouts, but giving a "hand up" is fine.

Some things some would call a handout are OK by me. Welfare has a place, but some people abuse it, and become too comfortable there.

There needs to be more childcare services for single parents, as long as they are working. Public school provides this to a certain extent. I'm not saying the parents nessisarily deserve it, but the children do.

How much can child care cost anyway, one person has to watch them for a few hours a day, and make sure they don't eat any glass or something. I'm not sure why child care is so damned expensive. It shouldn't cost more than $1 an hour.

Seems like they could employ some of the people in public housing to do it with an especially competent person there to oversee them to make sure no crack addicts were going to try to eat one of them.

There needs to be more of an effort to get some labor back out of the people who are getting financial aid.

There should be a small computer lab at all of these government housing facilities too, and online classes provided to help people get some education if they have spare time.

But it really is hard to do much of anything with a kid crawling all over you.


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1113811 - 12/05/02 12:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"...the people are waaaaay fatter than in Europe."

and yet we have the best athletes in the world.  :smirk: i'd like to know what they are basing their findings on. i know that they did a study in the states saying that houston was the fattest city in america and it was due mainly in part to the fact that we had the most fast food resteraunts per sq. mile or something. which doesn't really mean that the people are fat.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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