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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1110990 -

I actually think you're being nice. But you hit the most important topic - our lack of freedom relative to other developed nations.

Interestingly, the US was rated as the #6 country in the world to live in by the United Nations. I'd hate to think where we'd be ranked if we didn't have such a powerful influence over them. Here's a link to the report if anyone is interested:

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/pdf/backone.pdf

The rankings are on page 149. If you don't feel like opening the report, here's the top 25:

1 Norway
2 Sweden
3 Canada
4 Belgium
5 Australia
6 United States
7 Iceland
8 Netherlands
9 Japan
10 Finland
11 Switzerland
12 France
13 United Kingdom
14 Denmark
15 Austria
16 Luxembourg
17 Germany
18 Ireland
19 New Zealand
20 Italy
21 Spain
22 Israel
23 Hong Kong, China (SAR)
24 Greece
25 Singapore


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111034 -

uk should higher on the list(as in closer to #1)


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111040 -

canada always comes in 3rd


--------------------
"Well if it isnt my friend Mr.McCraig, with a leg for an arm and an arm for a leg"

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111189 -

Why are you still here?

Because I want to preserve freedom and I'm fighting for as much as I can get. Our (American) forefathers wanted that- and they started down the right path, but now I'm seeing the path lean a bit. It seems our government is no longer by the people, or for the people as much as it used to be. Greed and corruption are a big culprit in our ranks of government. This government was made by revolutionaries and I don't think the'd want to have what they made become another enemy.

I will not have a government starting to control it's people when it was based on freedom!

:mad: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (12/04/02 07:19 PM)

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111306 -

>the US was rated as the #6 country in the world to live in by the United Nations

That list is based only on education, earned money, and life expectancy. The UN is trying to rate a country based on quantifiable variables. Sweden is higher on the list than the United States, yet the Swedes tried (and may have even succeeded) in passing a law outlawing urinals because they elevate men above women. Conclusion: the list means nothing. Quality of life is not based on numerical values - it is not a matter of whether or not you live to be 78.5 or 77 years that makes you happy, it is how your life is spent. The most meaningful statistic there is GDP per capita, where America comes in second behind only Luxembourg. Money buys the freedom to retire and buy things that help you enjoy being alive. I know I would much rather earn more money than life to be a year and a half older.

Also, the US really has very little influence on the United Nations - in fact we owe them millions in dues. To the contrary, the UN has proven to be a gathering of countries to vent their anger on us. Remember when the UN Human Rights Council voted to kick us off their board while leaving on countries such as Afghanistan?

>Our (American) forefathers wanted that- and they started down the right path, but now I'm seeing the path lean a bit. It seems our government is no longer by the people, or for the people as much as it used to be.

The government is now more than ever for the people and by the people. The Founding Fathers wanted a government by only white male land owners. The most controversial debate on voting during the framing of the Constitution was whether or not even just any land owner should be able to vote or if you also had to be wealthy.

Only recently have people of all nationalities, races, and religions been able to vote without fear of violent intervention or unfair voting standards. A poor black man has as much vote as a rich white man as a rich black man as a poor hispanic woman.

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111381 -

In America, everyone (with few exceptions) above the age of 18 is allowed to vote.

I think there's maybe 5 countries in the world whose people aren't allowed to vote. And we rarely are allowed to vote on important issues, we have to let the elected polititians make most of the decisions for us.

In America, we have a Constitution which protects our rights as citizens. Granted this document has often been ignored, but there have been many times when presidential acts have been shot down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional.

Are there any countries without one?

In America, we have the right to bear arms, thus protecting our most basic right to life.

That's what the National Rifle Association would like us to believe. Statistics prove that we are MUCH more likely to be killed in this country than any other developed nation.

In America we have an economic system that, despite what you may say, works, and works better than any other country's.

We have the highest gap between rich and poor (by far) of any developed nation in the world. And although we preach free trade to developing nations, we charge huge tariffs on most of our imports, because we can't successfully compete.

If there is one thing to be learned from democratic socialism, it is that it doesn't work. In Europe, working forces are being replaced by machines. In Japan, workers go to work early and come home late, spending much of their time out drinking and partying because public transportation is so bad there. In Russia, where the Soviet Union for years overlooked every aspect of business, people are impoverished and the country is shunned by a global market.

Machines replacing labor is a failure of democratic socialism???
Have you seen how bad public transportation is in the US???
Russia is still transitioning from Communism. Give them another decade...

In America, we have a tradition of heroic battlefield accomplishments.

Fair enough! But the world thinks we're cowardly today because we launch our weapons from hundreds of miles away from their targets.

In America, we have a government that is willing to stand up to outside oppression and violence regardless of what the rest of the world says.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world believes we are oppressive and violent.

in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.

What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?

Edit: I still love this country and I'm only trying to improve things by pointing out our weaknesses. We are the most patriotic country in the world according to a University of Chicago study, so we tend to be blind about a lot of things.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (12/04/02 07:59 PM)

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111531 -

I can think of a few examples, such as the historian Howard Zinn. Here is a man of very high intelligence, yet never misses an opportunity to bash America. He protests everything in our history from the annihiliation of the Native Americans to World War II.

The point of Zinn's "A People's History" was to put forth the perspectives of those who were not born into the elite circle that has more or less controlled the American continent since its discovery. These outsiders include blacks, Mexicans, women, the working-poor, Native Americans, social activists, etc. whose history has always been poorly represented.

If you've actually read the introduction and other supporting essays on "A People's History" you'd know that Zinn did not intend to "bash America" but rather create a balance to the simple-minded near-propaganda that passes for American history in our education institutions.

Criticism of coercion, corruption, class warfare, and anti-democratic tendencies is in harmony with the ideals that built this country. So what's your problem? Why should people leave their homes?

Zinn also wished to celebrate the true America: the hardwork of the Irish and Chinese immigrants, the slave rebellions, the Civil Rights movement, the courage of the labor organizers at the turn of the 20th century, and the women who demanded the right to vote.

Zinn is a perfect example of an American who loves America but opposes how the statists/capitalists control this nation. He is a critic who is working for change in these powerful and often illegimate institutions.

Zinn, by the way, was a bomber in World War II in Europe.

Edited by ooo (12/04/02 08:44 PM)

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111555 -

Howard Zinn...here is a man of very high intelligence, yet never misses an opportunity to bash America. He protests everything in our history from the annihiliation of the Native Americans to World War II.

Finally, in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.

So, you have the right to protest, but if you protest in the wrong way (like your example Howard Zinn), you should leave the country or keep quiet? This is what I'm hearing for you and others.

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111594 -

That list is based only on education, earned money, and life expectancy.

What would you base it on?  Hopefully not who has the stupidest laws, because America would win that EASILY!  (in fact, I'll start a thread called "the world's stupidest laws!", which you'll see will be filled with US examples).

FYI, the law about the urinals that you mentioned was being pushed by a feminist organization based in several different countries, and Sweden had enough sense not to pass it.  :smirk:   


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111617 -

America needs to send the troops in, if they actually send in ground troops and not use as many fuckin rockets and shit, then they will be feared by the Muslims. Right now, they think of Americans as cowards.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: downforpot]
    #1111622 -

almost as cowardly as hijacking planes full of innocent people and crashing them into skyscrapers full of other innocent people.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111632 -

That's all subject to interpritation.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Murex]
    #1111639 -

i don't know if you were referring to my post, but how would you interpret it? if not then please disregard. :grin:


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111688 -

Hating bush, greedy self serving politicians, intrusions on our civil liberties, foolish laws, a poor domestic policy, being at war, manipulation of the mass media, and the fact the half of the people in the country are bloated sheep beleiving blindly everything the government tells them or shows them on the moron box(T.V.) and who either no nothing of the issues at hand or simply don't care is not synonymous with hating America.

America is a set of ideals that half the people and pretty much all of the politicians in this country has forgotten about.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1111734 -

Hijacking planes full of innocent people and crashing them into skyscrapers full of other innocent people was terribly evil and wrong, and I will never forgive the people responsible.
But cowardly?  We like to use those words, but I think you'd have to be pretty brave to do that.  :blush: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111765 -

i was referring to the leaders who convinced the people to hijack the planes. it's funny how these guys always say that it is heroic to die for allah and that you will go straight to heaven for it. yet you never see any of them doing it.

as far as the hijackers go, i don't think i'd call them brave. i'd call them sick. taking on unarmed people isn't brave. i mean, would you call me brave if i went into a school with an AK and mowed down all the children?  :confused: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


Edited by htownkid28 (12/04/02 09:54 PM)

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1111777 -

Ya, the leaders are definitely the biggest cowards!!!  And I agree what the hijackers did was sick.  :mad: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111875 -


In America, everyone (with few exceptions) above the age of 18 is allowed to vote.


I think there's maybe 5 countries in the world whose people aren't allowed to vote. And we rarely are allowed to vote on important issues, we have to let the elected polititians make most of the decisions for us.

Hm.. off the top of my head, countries where the people do not have a say (or they have a small insignifigant say) in the political process: North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan. And those are the ones I came up with in 30 seconds.

The reason we are not allowed to vote on important issues directly is because the
founding fathers realized that direct democracy was too volatile, because
(shock!) the will of the majority is often fickle and easily manipulated. They
therefore devised a system of elected representatives who would run the country with more stability.


In America, we have a Constitution which protects our rights as citizens. Granted this document has often been ignored, but there have been many times when presidential acts have been shot down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional.


Are there any countries without one?


Yes.


In America, we have the right to bear arms, thus protecting our most basic right to life.


That's what the National Rifle Association would like us to believe. Statistics prove that we are MUCH more likely to be killed in this country than any other developed nation.

The whole gun issue is a thorny one. There is no doubt guns are responsible for many deaths every year. There are pros and cons to the legality of firearms. After examining the issue, I have determined that I support the continued legal status of firearms, but with controls(pretty much basically how it is now, but with better enforcement).


In America we have an economic system that, despite what you may say, works, and works better than any other country's.


We have the highest gap between rich and poor (by far) of any developed nation in the world.

Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they
have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the
poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to
support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole
concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against
my will, and if I am poor(which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the
street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.



In America, we have a tradition of heroic battlefield accomplishments.


Fair enough! But the world thinks we're cowardly today because we launch our weapons from hundreds of miles away from their targets.


If I am a military commander, it is my duty and responsibility to do whatever I can to
win. In order to win, you must inflict the most casualties on your enemy, while
sustaining the least amount of casualties in your own forces. In order to do this, you need to take advantage of technology. If I can send a one million dollar missile and cause tons of damage to the enemy, as opposed to sending in troops, not causing as much damage to the enemy, and losing a lot of my own forces, well I am going to use the missile. If the enemy thinks I am a coward, I don't care. Tough shit. Fuck them. I am going to win and that is all that matters.


in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.


What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?


Look at the countries that I listed above. In a lot of those countries you will be
executed for raising even a hint of dissent.


RandalFlagg

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1112024 -

In reply to:
Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they
have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the
poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to
support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole
concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against
my will, and if I am poor(which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the
street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.




Most truly "rich" people got that way because they had opportunity that others did not. If more of these people had access to more opportunity, then the finacial base would be altered. More people could afford to pay more for stuff, and so the rich would be less rich because their money would be worth less. Conversely, because the rich can afford to pay more, prices are elevated for everyone, this is most obviously true for things such as real estate. ad into this the fact that the rich have the power to decide how much money to pay these people for their labor, and wish to pay them as little as possible, and thus as a consequence profit unfairly in most cases.

So you see, the rich are already mooching off the poor.

At the same time it is better to use the money that was "mooched" from the poor to provide more opportunity. Too much mooching, and it has a counterproductive effect on the economy, and the rich start holding onto their money tighter, and tighter, while at the same time having less to invest in broadening their business, causing jobs to become more scarce.

Anyone who is willing to work should be able to, and should recieve enough to live a reasonable life, even if funds have to be redistributed in order to make this happen.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1112849 -

"the Swedes tried (and may have even succeeded) in passing a law outlawing urinals"
No, they didn't succeed. You're allowed to try passing stupid laws in any free country.

"the US really has very little influence on the United Nations - in fact we owe them millions in dues"
That's because you don't pay your dues, because you're given special treatment, because you have lots of influence.

None of the things you've listed are that special. No matter what you say, it doesn't have the best economy, it doesn't have the highest quality of life, the people are waaaaay fatter than in Europe. Your government is filled with puritan dinosaurs, that's why you aren't even allowed titties or swearing in prime time. You've got a psychotic war on drugs going on. The United States is just another country.

Every kid in every country is raised to believe that their country is the best in the world. You've just bought into that. Congradulations, you're a sucker.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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