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Anonymous

To All Americans Who Hate America
    #1109654 - 12/04/02 12:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why are you still here?

*I'm posting this in Political because this forum doesn't attract as many idiots as OTD, who would reply "Fuck America and fuck Bush" and not really answer the question.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109680 - 12/04/02 01:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm assuming many Americans who hate America are staying there in the hopes of making a difference. What's the use of just leaving?...that's just another way of giving up in my opinion.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109708 - 12/04/02 01:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Read my posts under the thread "Liberalism" and you will understand why these
people think the way they do. Why they don't leave....I don't know.

RandalFlagg


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1109712 - 12/04/02 01:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"these people"???


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109763 - 12/04/02 01:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The americans you're talking about, for the most part, don't hate America. They hate the way that america is being run. If they hated america, they wouldn't be complaining. They don't want to destroy it, they want to solve the problem.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phluck]
    #1109832 - 12/04/02 02:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Phluck is right.
But actually solving the problem once and for all would take a lot of work.
Americans, for the most part, are lazy when it comes to changing the old political ways. (there are exceptions, of course.)
"The people" instituting any sort of political change at this point is just a pipe dream.
If you're anti-Bush, you're an enemy.
Perhaps you're even a Terrorist if you have the right books on loan from the library.
Bush is deploying 250,000 (correct me if I'm wrong on that figure) troops INSIDE the U.S.
I for one, plan to stay away from anti-war rallies because I don't enjoy being bullied by armed thugs who are there to enforce "freedom"....it's just an elaborate puppet show anyway.
If one ever got out of hand you can bet that there'd be more National Gaurd troops than protesters on the scene faster than you can say "live ammunition".

So where's the solution?
The only solutions for "problems" of this magnitute are found within.
Inside every person is the answer to their "problems".
I say "problems" because I view every "problem" not as something negative, but an opportunity for growth.
To answer the question, I'm here because I can't afford to move to Canada.


Edited by dee_N_ae (12/04/02 02:24 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109925 - 12/04/02 02:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why are you still here?

Because they don't want to become victims of american foreign policy.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1110046 - 12/04/02 03:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I love my country, and hate the current administration


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1110122 - 12/04/02 04:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Because they don't want to become victims of american foreign policy.


BA HAH HA! Good one! It's funny 'cause it's true.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXibalba
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To All Humans Who Love America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1110149 - 12/04/02 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What the fuck is wrong with you???

I've only ever heard this argument used by rightists, directed toward liberal complainers; "Love it or leave it!"

Do you agree 100% with the state of this country, and its role in the world? I'm sure you don't. Unless you've got your head deeply lodged in the blubbery anus of the Republican Elephant himself, you must see that some things are very wrong with this place, and with George Bush.
Ironically enough, plenty of conservatives DO piss and moan about how society is going to hell, the government is screwing us, etc. etc. At length. Sitting in their Ford Explorer with a flag on the antenna and a Bush/Cheney sticker on the bumper, listening to Rush and getting angry...
Of course, all this can be blamed on the liberals. And the obvious solution is for those damn liberals to all just... leave?
Well that's real mature.

No, I don't think this country would be better off with no conservatives, and I hate the democratic party- and especially anyone who would proudly call themself a Democrat, too. I think Nader would destroy this country faster than Buchanan, [though he might harm the rest of the world less in doing so.]
But I'd never put up an American Flag. To me it stands for worship of our mentally retarded puppet-president, the whole dirty system of billionare corporate sponsorship and nepotism that put him where he is, a billion-dollar-a-day war addiction- oil money, blood money... the war on drug users feeding the prison business, global policing, cultural imperialism, and the blind arrogant brand-loyalty of those that think it still means "land of the free, home of the brave" like it did back in the revolutionary times.

America as a chunk of land and a collection of people is still pretty good, I'm not being personally affected enough by the above evil to want to immediately leave. But America as a political entity and as a brand name to market to the world, is something deserving of our hate.



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Invisibleooo
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110201 - 12/04/02 04:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Those who critique the United States usually do so not because they have a problem with "America" (i.e. the people and culture) but rather because they see the massive errors in the federal/state governmental structures and the corporations.

The founding fathers of the United States had a problem with being under the boot of imperial England. Did they leave? No, they worked for independence.


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Anonymous

Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Xibalba]
    #1110207 - 12/04/02 04:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am referring not to "liberal complainers" but to those who all too often post here saying how much they hate America and have New York as their location. It's not love it or leave, but if you absolutely hate America to the point where you can't stop complaining and find nothing good about this country, then why stay?

The more I read, the more I dislike Bush. In today's paper, there was an article about Bush signing a secret authorization for the CIA to kill an al-Quaida members, US citizens or not. This is a clear violation of the right to a fair trial, but no one knows about it or they deny that it's true.

Frankly, there are many problems with the United States. I could probably write a book twice as long as War and Peace just listing the problems I see everyday and in the news. But I compare those problems with the way America is run and some of our freedoms, and I conclude that this is still the best country to live in.

I have to go to wrestling practice now, but so far you all have not let me down in terms of making good arguements. I'll catch you later tonight.


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Invisibleooo
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110252 - 12/04/02 04:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am referring not to "liberal complainers" but to those who all too often post here saying how much they hate America and have New York as their location.

Can you provide an example? I think this is simply an unintended strawman, for the most part. I'm sure you can dig up two or three examples of some sixteen year old ranting about America, but so what? Anything more substantial?

Timothy McVeigh commmitted one of the worst terrorist acts on American soil, targetting both the federal government and innocent civilians (American people themselves). From all indictation, McVeigh did not hate America.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: ooo]
    #1110343 - 12/04/02 05:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Timothy McVeigh commmitted one of the worst terrorist acts on American soil, targetting both the federal government and innocent civilians (American people themselves).



Hmmm, ever heard of 'Sherman's march to the sea?' Ever heard about the numerous nations which existed on the North American continent before the U.S. Government engaged in their systematic subjugation and slaughter of their people? After the war to stop southern secession and the abandonment of federalism, the Nation called The United States turned it's attention to crushing any other independant minded peoples. It used biological warfare (small pox on blankets) along with the total war policy which served it well in subjugating the southern states. These were acts of terrorism which dwarf McVeigh's.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleooo
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Evolving]
    #1110460 - 12/04/02 05:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

fair enough.

but certainly one of the worst acts in modern times in which the phrase "love it or leave it" would apply...hence the example.



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Xibalba]
    #1110526 - 12/04/02 05:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


What the fuck is wrong with you???


Nothing.


I've only ever heard this argument used by rightists, directed toward liberal complainers; "Love it or leave it!"


I don't say love it or leave it. First of all, I say love it. Secondly, I say that if you don't like how things are, you are allowed to participate in the political process in any way that you wish. And, lastly, if you do not feel like expending the effort, or your effort did not bring about the changes that you had desired, you may leave.


Do you agree 100% with the state of this country, and its role in the world? I'm sure you don't. Unless you've got your head deeply lodged in the blubbery anus of the Republican Elephant himself, you must see that some things are very wrong with this place, and with George Bush.
Ironically enough, plenty of conservatives DO piss and moan about how society is going to hell, the government is screwing us, etc. etc. At length. Sitting in their Ford Explorer with a flag on the antenna and a Bush/Cheney sticker on the bumper, listening to Rush and getting angry...


I am not a Bush supporter. I would have preferred if the libertarian candidate had won the presidency. Everyone bitches and moans. Not just liberals and conservatives.

Yes, there are things that this country has done and is doing that I disagree with. In my opinion, our intervention in foreign affairs is misguided. We protect, prop up, or have military bases in, countries that don't want us there. I say fuck them. Let them rot. I don't care about some country halfway across the world. I care about my own country.



Of course, all this can be blamed on the liberals. And the obvious solution is for those damn liberals to all just... leave?
Well that's real mature.


Liberals are not the cause of all problems. But, a lot of problems do arise from liberalism in my opinion.


But I'd never put up an American Flag. To me it stands for worship of our mentally retarded puppet-president, the whole dirty system of billionare corporate sponsorship and nepotism that put him where he is, a billion-dollar-a-day war addiction- oil money, blood money... the war on drug users feeding the prison business, global policing, cultural imperialism, and the blind arrogant brand-loyalty of those that think it still means "land of the free, home of the brave" like it did back in the revolutionary times.

America as a chunk of land and a collection of people is still pretty good, I'm not being personally affected enough by the above evil to want to immediately leave. But America as a political entity and as a brand name to market to the world, is something deserving of our hate.



Thank Goodness, that I live in a country where I am allowed to criticize my government, without fear of being "hauled away".

Admittedly, there are definite problems that need resolved. We do need a hero to
stand up.

But, I have no respect for some privileged young person who lives in a nice suburban house, who has luxuries at his disposal that 99% of the people in this world would kill for, who is capable of going anywhere and doing pretty much anything(within reason), who is allowed to say whatever he wants, and who has a voice in how things are run in his country, and who engages in senseless and excessively vitriolic attacks on America and "what it stands for".

We have some things to be pissed about. But, we have some things to be thankful about as well. When something important is broken you don't kick, belittle, and insult it. You work to fix it.

RandalFlagg


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110570 - 12/04/02 06:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"I conclude that this is still the best country to live in."

The best? It doesn't have the highest standard of living, certainly doesn't have the most freedom, there are lots of countries that rank higher in both of these things, why is the US the best?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1110608 - 12/04/02 06:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Probably becuase it's the only one he's been to or can find on a map.. :smirk: (relax...it's a joke...more or less)


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (12/04/02 06:19 PM)


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110626 - 12/04/02 06:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Because this is where my family is, my friends are and my history was created...

Just picking up and moving to another contry would mean I would have to recreate myself alone.

Besides, short of learning a new language their arent many places to chose from and I dont want to live any place that has snow ever again....


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GabbaDj

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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1110883 - 12/04/02 07:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>Can you provide an example? I think this is simply an unintended strawman, for the most part. I'm sure you can dig up two or three examples of some sixteen year old ranting about America, but so what? Anything more substantial?

I can think of a few examples, such as the historian Howard Zinn.  Here is a man of very high intelligence, yet never misses an opportunity to bash America.  He protests everything in our history from the annihiliation of the Native Americans to World War II.  But this thread was also aimed at those 16 year old loudmouths.  I want to engage these people in a meaningful conversation, in which they can learn that they are not educated enough to cook a pizza, much less bad mouth Bush, or that there really are reasons why they prefer America, or maybe to give them a friendly kick out the door :wink:


>The best? It doesn't have the highest standard of living, certainly doesn't have the most freedom, there are lots of countries that rank higher in both of these things, why is the US the best?

In America, everyone (with few exceptions) above the age of 18 is allowed to vote.

In America, we have a Constitution which protects our rights as citizens.  Granted this document has often been ignored, but there have been many times when presidential acts have been shot down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional.

In America, we have the right to bear arms, thus protecting our most basic right to life.

In America we have an economic system that, despite what you may say, works, and works better than any other country's.  We have unions to protect workers' rights, but a large population and potential working force to counterbalance them.  We have relatively little government intervention in business (democratic socialism), providing optimum condidtions for inventions and new ideas.  If there is one thing to be learned from democratic socialism, it is that it doesn't work.  In Europe, working forces are being replaced by machines.  In Japan, workers go to work early and come home late, spending much of their time out drinking and partying because public transportation is so bad there.  In Russia, where the Soviet Union for years overlooked every aspect of business, people are impoverished and the country is shunned by a global market.

In America, we have a tradition of heroic battlefield accomplishments.  We fought and won a war against the most powerful naval force in the world in our fight for independence.  In World War I, we gave the Allies the little extra nudge to defeat the final major European monarchs.  In World War II, we provided the huge shoved required to defeat Nazi Germany from the west, and later thousands of American soldiers gave their lives to defeat an Asian country which had been brutally fighting the Chinese .

In America, we have a government that is willing to stand up to outside oppression and violence regardless of what the rest of the world says.

Finally, in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.  In Nevada, citizens decided they'd had enough of the marijuana laws and tried to legalize it.  But citizens also decided they didn't want it legalized, and the proposition never passed.

These reasons, in addition to the life I lead, with plenty of food, drink, entertainment, transportation, and nice shelter, are why I love America.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1110990 - 12/04/02 08:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I actually think you're being nice. But you hit the most important topic - our lack of freedom relative to other developed nations.

Interestingly, the US was rated as the #6 country in the world to live in by the United Nations. I'd hate to think where we'd be ranked if we didn't have such a powerful influence over them. Here's a link to the report if anyone is interested:

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/pdf/backone.pdf

The rankings are on page 149. If you don't feel like opening the report, here's the top 25:

1 Norway
2 Sweden
3 Canada
4 Belgium
5 Australia
6 United States
7 Iceland
8 Netherlands
9 Japan
10 Finland
11 Switzerland
12 France
13 United Kingdom
14 Denmark
15 Austria
16 Luxembourg
17 Germany
18 Ireland
19 New Zealand
20 Italy
21 Spain
22 Israel
23 Hong Kong, China (SAR)
24 Greece
25 Singapore


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111034 - 12/04/02 08:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

uk should higher on the list(as in closer to #1)


--------------------



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Then shot in his head
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Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineSkiTTLeBrOW
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111040 - 12/04/02 08:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

canada always comes in 3rd


--------------------
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OfflineMurex
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111189 - 12/04/02 09:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why are you still here?

Because I want to preserve freedom and I'm fighting for as much as I can get. Our (American) forefathers wanted that- and they started down the right path, but now I'm seeing the path lean a bit. It seems our government is no longer by the people, or for the people as much as it used to be. Greed and corruption are a big culprit in our ranks of government. This government was made by revolutionaries and I don't think the'd want to have what they made become another enemy.

I will not have a government starting to control it's people when it was based on freedom!

:mad: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (12/04/02 09:19 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111306 - 12/04/02 09:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>the US was rated as the #6 country in the world to live in by the United Nations

That list is based only on education, earned money, and life expectancy. The UN is trying to rate a country based on quantifiable variables. Sweden is higher on the list than the United States, yet the Swedes tried (and may have even succeeded) in passing a law outlawing urinals because they elevate men above women. Conclusion: the list means nothing. Quality of life is not based on numerical values - it is not a matter of whether or not you live to be 78.5 or 77 years that makes you happy, it is how your life is spent. The most meaningful statistic there is GDP per capita, where America comes in second behind only Luxembourg. Money buys the freedom to retire and buy things that help you enjoy being alive. I know I would much rather earn more money than life to be a year and a half older.

Also, the US really has very little influence on the United Nations - in fact we owe them millions in dues. To the contrary, the UN has proven to be a gathering of countries to vent their anger on us. Remember when the UN Human Rights Council voted to kick us off their board while leaving on countries such as Afghanistan?

>Our (American) forefathers wanted that- and they started down the right path, but now I'm seeing the path lean a bit. It seems our government is no longer by the people, or for the people as much as it used to be.

The government is now more than ever for the people and by the people. The Founding Fathers wanted a government by only white male land owners. The most controversial debate on voting during the framing of the Constitution was whether or not even just any land owner should be able to vote or if you also had to be wealthy.

Only recently have people of all nationalities, races, and religions been able to vote without fear of violent intervention or unfair voting standards. A poor black man has as much vote as a rich white man as a rich black man as a poor hispanic woman.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111381 - 12/04/02 09:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In America, everyone (with few exceptions) above the age of 18 is allowed to vote.

I think there's maybe 5 countries in the world whose people aren't allowed to vote. And we rarely are allowed to vote on important issues, we have to let the elected polititians make most of the decisions for us.

In America, we have a Constitution which protects our rights as citizens. Granted this document has often been ignored, but there have been many times when presidential acts have been shot down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional.

Are there any countries without one?

In America, we have the right to bear arms, thus protecting our most basic right to life.

That's what the National Rifle Association would like us to believe. Statistics prove that we are MUCH more likely to be killed in this country than any other developed nation.

In America we have an economic system that, despite what you may say, works, and works better than any other country's.

We have the highest gap between rich and poor (by far) of any developed nation in the world. And although we preach free trade to developing nations, we charge huge tariffs on most of our imports, because we can't successfully compete.

If there is one thing to be learned from democratic socialism, it is that it doesn't work. In Europe, working forces are being replaced by machines. In Japan, workers go to work early and come home late, spending much of their time out drinking and partying because public transportation is so bad there. In Russia, where the Soviet Union for years overlooked every aspect of business, people are impoverished and the country is shunned by a global market.

Machines replacing labor is a failure of democratic socialism???
Have you seen how bad public transportation is in the US???
Russia is still transitioning from Communism. Give them another decade...

In America, we have a tradition of heroic battlefield accomplishments.

Fair enough! But the world thinks we're cowardly today because we launch our weapons from hundreds of miles away from their targets.

In America, we have a government that is willing to stand up to outside oppression and violence regardless of what the rest of the world says.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world believes we are oppressive and violent.

in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.

What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?

Edit: I still love this country and I'm only trying to improve things by pointing out our weaknesses. We are the most patriotic country in the world according to a University of Chicago study, so we tend to be blind about a lot of things.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/04/02 09:59 PM)


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Invisibleooo
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111531 - 12/04/02 10:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I can think of a few examples, such as the historian Howard Zinn. Here is a man of very high intelligence, yet never misses an opportunity to bash America. He protests everything in our history from the annihiliation of the Native Americans to World War II.

The point of Zinn's "A People's History" was to put forth the perspectives of those who were not born into the elite circle that has more or less controlled the American continent since its discovery. These outsiders include blacks, Mexicans, women, the working-poor, Native Americans, social activists, etc. whose history has always been poorly represented.

If you've actually read the introduction and other supporting essays on "A People's History" you'd know that Zinn did not intend to "bash America" but rather create a balance to the simple-minded near-propaganda that passes for American history in our education institutions.

Criticism of coercion, corruption, class warfare, and anti-democratic tendencies is in harmony with the ideals that built this country. So what's your problem? Why should people leave their homes?

Zinn also wished to celebrate the true America: the hardwork of the Irish and Chinese immigrants, the slave rebellions, the Civil Rights movement, the courage of the labor organizers at the turn of the 20th century, and the women who demanded the right to vote.

Zinn is a perfect example of an American who loves America but opposes how the statists/capitalists control this nation. He is a critic who is working for change in these powerful and often illegimate institutions.

Zinn, by the way, was a bomber in World War II in Europe.


Edited by ooo (12/04/02 10:44 PM)


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Invisibleooo
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111555 - 12/04/02 10:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Howard Zinn...here is a man of very high intelligence, yet never misses an opportunity to bash America. He protests everything in our history from the annihiliation of the Native Americans to World War II.

Finally, in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.

So, you have the right to protest, but if you protest in the wrong way (like your example Howard Zinn), you should leave the country or keep quiet? This is what I'm hearing for you and others.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111594 - 12/04/02 10:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That list is based only on education, earned money, and life expectancy.

What would you base it on?  Hopefully not who has the stupidest laws, because America would win that EASILY!  (in fact, I'll start a thread called "the world's stupidest laws!", which you'll see will be filled with US examples).

FYI, the law about the urinals that you mentioned was being pushed by a feminist organization based in several different countries, and Sweden had enough sense not to pass it.  :smirk:   


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111617 - 12/04/02 11:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

America needs to send the troops in, if they actually send in ground troops and not use as many fuckin rockets and shit, then they will be feared by the Muslims. Right now, they think of Americans as cowards.


--------------------



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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: downforpot]
    #1111622 - 12/04/02 11:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

almost as cowardly as hijacking planes full of innocent people and crashing them into skyscrapers full of other innocent people.


--------------------
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OfflineMurex
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111632 - 12/04/02 11:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's all subject to interpritation.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Murex]
    #1111639 - 12/04/02 11:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i don't know if you were referring to my post, but how would you interpret it? if not then please disregard. :grin:


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1111688 - 12/04/02 11:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hating bush, greedy self serving politicians, intrusions on our civil liberties, foolish laws, a poor domestic policy, being at war, manipulation of the mass media, and the fact the half of the people in the country are bloated sheep beleiving blindly everything the government tells them or shows them on the moron box(T.V.) and who either no nothing of the issues at hand or simply don't care is not synonymous with hating America.

America is a set of ideals that half the people and pretty much all of the politicians in this country has forgotten about.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1111734 - 12/04/02 11:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hijacking planes full of innocent people and crashing them into skyscrapers full of other innocent people was terribly evil and wrong, and I will never forgive the people responsible.
But cowardly?  We like to use those words, but I think you'd have to be pretty brave to do that.  :blush: 


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111765 - 12/04/02 11:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i was referring to the leaders who convinced the people to hijack the planes. it's funny how these guys always say that it is heroic to die for allah and that you will go straight to heaven for it. yet you never see any of them doing it.

as far as the hijackers go, i don't think i'd call them brave. i'd call them sick. taking on unarmed people isn't brave. i mean, would you call me brave if i went into a school with an AK and mowed down all the children?  :confused: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



Edited by htownkid28 (12/04/02 11:54 PM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1111777 - 12/04/02 11:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ya, the leaders are definitely the biggest cowards!!!  And I agree what the hijackers did was sick.  :mad: 


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1111875 - 12/05/02 12:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


In America, everyone (with few exceptions) above the age of 18 is allowed to vote.


I think there's maybe 5 countries in the world whose people aren't allowed to vote. And we rarely are allowed to vote on important issues, we have to let the elected polititians make most of the decisions for us.

Hm.. off the top of my head, countries where the people do not have a say (or they have a small insignifigant say) in the political process: North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan. And those are the ones I came up with in 30 seconds.

The reason we are not allowed to vote on important issues directly is because the
founding fathers realized that direct democracy was too volatile, because
(shock!) the will of the majority is often fickle and easily manipulated. They
therefore devised a system of elected representatives who would run the country with more stability.


In America, we have a Constitution which protects our rights as citizens. Granted this document has often been ignored, but there have been many times when presidential acts have been shot down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional.


Are there any countries without one?


Yes.


In America, we have the right to bear arms, thus protecting our most basic right to life.


That's what the National Rifle Association would like us to believe. Statistics prove that we are MUCH more likely to be killed in this country than any other developed nation.

The whole gun issue is a thorny one. There is no doubt guns are responsible for many deaths every year. There are pros and cons to the legality of firearms. After examining the issue, I have determined that I support the continued legal status of firearms, but with controls(pretty much basically how it is now, but with better enforcement).


In America we have an economic system that, despite what you may say, works, and works better than any other country's.


We have the highest gap between rich and poor (by far) of any developed nation in the world.


Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they
have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the
poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to
support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole
concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against
my will, and if I am poor(which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the
street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.



In America, we have a tradition of heroic battlefield accomplishments.


Fair enough! But the world thinks we're cowardly today because we launch our weapons from hundreds of miles away from their targets.


If I am a military commander, it is my duty and responsibility to do whatever I can to
win. In order to win, you must inflict the most casualties on your enemy, while
sustaining the least amount of casualties in your own forces. In order to do this, you need to take advantage of technology. If I can send a one million dollar missile and cause tons of damage to the enemy, as opposed to sending in troops, not causing as much damage to the enemy, and losing a lot of my own forces, well I am going to use the missile. If the enemy thinks I am a coward, I don't care. Tough shit. Fuck them. I am going to win and that is all that matters.


in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.


What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?


Look at the countries that I listed above. In a lot of those countries you will be
executed for raising even a hint of dissent.


RandalFlagg


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1112024 - 12/05/02 01:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they
have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the
poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to
support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole
concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against
my will, and if I am poor(which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the
street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.





Most truly "rich" people got that way because they had opportunity that others did not. If more of these people had access to more opportunity, then the finacial base would be altered. More people could afford to pay more for stuff, and so the rich would be less rich because their money would be worth less. Conversely, because the rich can afford to pay more, prices are elevated for everyone, this is most obviously true for things such as real estate. ad into this the fact that the rich have the power to decide how much money to pay these people for their labor, and wish to pay them as little as possible, and thus as a consequence profit unfairly in most cases.

So you see, the rich are already mooching off the poor.

At the same time it is better to use the money that was "mooched" from the poor to provide more opportunity. Too much mooching, and it has a counterproductive effect on the economy, and the rich start holding onto their money tighter, and tighter, while at the same time having less to invest in broadening their business, causing jobs to become more scarce.

Anyone who is willing to work should be able to, and should recieve enough to live a reasonable life, even if funds have to be redistributed in order to make this happen.


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1112849 - 12/05/02 09:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"the Swedes tried (and may have even succeeded) in passing a law outlawing urinals"
No, they didn't succeed. You're allowed to try passing stupid laws in any free country.

"the US really has very little influence on the United Nations - in fact we owe them millions in dues"
That's because you don't pay your dues, because you're given special treatment, because you have lots of influence.

None of the things you've listed are that special. No matter what you say, it doesn't have the best economy, it doesn't have the highest quality of life, the people are waaaaay fatter than in Europe. Your government is filled with puritan dinosaurs, that's why you aren't even allowed titties or swearing in prime time. You've got a psychotic war on drugs going on. The United States is just another country.

Every kid in every country is raised to believe that their country is the best in the world. You've just bought into that. Congradulations, you're a sucker.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113006 - 12/05/02 10:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they
have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the
poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to
support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole
concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against
my will, and if I am poor(which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the
street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Most truly "rich" people got that way because they had opportunity that others did not.


There is some truth to that. People who have large financial resources to begin
with, do have a "head-start" on other people. But, keep in mind that America is a
country where you can do or accomplish anything you want to, if you only put
your mind to it. You don't have to be rich to have a good idea. You don't have to
be rich to have initiative. You don't have to be rich to be successful. And, in
America, you are not required to strive to be rich. You can do whatever you
want. If you want to live on the street, go ahead and do it. If you want to become
a doctor, go ahead and do it.


If more of these people had access to more opportunity, then the finacial base would be altered.

Every American, no matter how "disadvantaged" has access to opportunity, but
usually they are too busy bitching about how they are perennial victims and how
they have it so "tough", to actually accomplish anything.


More people could afford to pay more for stuff, and so the rich would be less rich because their money would be worth less.


huh? You obviously do not understand a simple concept of economics. In a free-market economy(where people are allowed to own private property, where they are allowed to spend their money in any way they want to, where they are allowed to earn their money in any way they want to, etc..) if you were to infuse the poor with money, the prices of everything would go up, because the poor could afford to pay more for stuff, which would negate any increase in their income.


Conversely, because the rich can afford to pay more, prices are elevated for everyone, this is most obviously true for things such as real estate.


You make it sound as if this society has tons and tons of privileged rich people
and tons and tons of poor people. There are a lot of middle-class people. There are very few rich people, and when something has a high price on it, it is that way because it is valuable, and the people who own it(whoever that may be) has a right, because they own it, to determine how much it is worth.


ad into this the fact that the rich have the power to decide how much money to pay these people for their labor, and wish to pay them as little as possible, and thus as a consequence profit unfairly in most cases.

So you see, the rich are already mooching off the poor.

Not all business owners are "greedy rich capitalists" who take delight in keeping the working man down. Most businesses in this country are small and run by
working-class average people.

And if a person does work for one of these companies that are owned by rich people(by the way, the rich person is there because they put themselves there with their own effort, and they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor) they have a right to organize, make demands, and strike in order to get concessions that they feel they are entitled to.


At the same time it is better to use the money that was "mooched" from the poor to provide more opportunity.


Forcefully taking money away from people that earned it. Redistributing it to people who didn't earn it. i.e. socialism ...No thanks.


Anyone who is willing to work should be able to, and should recieve enough to live a reasonable life, even if funds have to be redistributed in order to make this happen.


That's the thing. Not everyone who is capable of working or supporting themself does work. A lot of them are lazy or incompetent. Why should I be forced to shoulder the burden of providing them with services?

Whereever you are in life, you put yourself there or you let yourself remain there.

RandalFlagg



Edited by RandalFlagg (12/05/02 10:53 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113019 - 12/05/02 10:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Do you seriously believe that the only reason there are poor people in the US and other capitalist countries is down to the fact that they havent got off their backsides to change their situation and that is the only thing holding them back?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1113035 - 12/05/02 11:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Do you seriously believe that the only reason there are poor people in the US and other capitalist countries is down to the fact that they havent got off their backsides to change their situation and that is the only thing holding them back?


That is not the only reason, but it is a big part of it.

Keep in mind that the "poor" of America often have roofs over their heads, TV's, and cars. Compare this to many other countries where "poor" means that you go hungry in a delapidated building with no electricity or water, in a crime-infested third-world slum, where you will probably die before the age of thirty.


RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113160 - 12/05/02 11:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is not the only reason, but it is a big part of it.

And don't tell me, corporate executives are all soooo hard working? Makes you wonder why they need so much corporate welfare doesn't it. Remember the legendary "privatisation" of the railways in England where the government handed over our railways to a bunch of corporate tossers (making many of them millionaires overnight) who commenced to fleece every penny they could out of the gravy train before they ran the industry into meltdown. Yes, what wonderful, hard-working people corporate executives are.

I think you'll find the average american worker works harder than any corporate executive could possibly imagine. For a hundreth of the pay. Corporate executives arn't called "fat cats" because they work hard.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113310 - 12/05/02 12:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if you were to infuse the poor with money, the prices of everything would go up, because the poor could afford to pay more for stuff, which would negate any increase in their income

It would negate a small fraction of the increase, but not the entire thing.

I wasn't talking about America. In america, if you are poor you either chose to be, you are handicapped in some way, or you are a child who doesn't have the choice not to be poor.It does however apply to most poorer countries.

I used to bust my ass for $3.25 an hour. Minimum wage is now over six dollars, and you can make more money playing video games on the internet than I did at my first job. I think minimum wage is a good Idea, so are unions, even though I've never been in one, or worked anywhere that had one.


by the way, the rich person is there because they put themselves there with their own effort, and they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor

They enjoy alot of people's fruits. They've enjoyed most of my fruits most of my life. I put them there as much as they did.


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1113318 - 12/05/02 12:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"i was referring to the leaders who convinced the people to hijack the planes. it's funny how these guys always say that it is heroic to die for allah and that you will go straight to heaven for it. yet you never see any of them doing it."

nor is bush out there heroically going to war
leaders lead and soldiers shot/getshot.
if a nation/organization's leaders kept dying in battle, they wouldn't get very far.


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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113321 - 12/05/02 12:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

For everyone who belives wealth is endowed upon the lucky, remember some of the so called "robber barons of late 1800s and early 1900s. Men such as Andrew Carnegie worked themselves up from the poorer class (which was much more poor and worse of in all) to become multi-millionaires.

My grandfather on my mother's side immigrated to America with a single paycheck from a poorly paying job, which was stolen from him along with his wallet his second day here, at the YMCA. He worked and worked, but never made much. What little he did make, he invested in the stock market and grew his money to a sum large enough to put all 5 of his grand children through college, and leave all three of his children fairly substantial sums of money.

My Dad worked up from the middle-lower class after very little education. Through hard work, he made enough to go through vocational schools and now is able to support our family, go on vacations, and he enjoys his job.

The gap between the "rich" and the "poor" is simply propoganda to pass legislation that takes money from hard working middle class people to some alcoholic who stands on the side of the road asking for money. Fortunately, the American people as a majority haven't bought this... yet.

Also, when you say that America is cowardly because we bomb countries from above and don't send in troops, you are mistaken. We sent hundreds of special forces troops into Afghanistan to bring down the Taliban.

You seem to think war is just a game, and if you don't play by the accepted standards, you're cowardly. The British thought the American revolutionaries were cowardly because they used guerilla warfare. Rather than losing the amount of lives that would be lost in an all out ground war, we decide to save lives on BOTH sides by bombing selected targets and eliminating others through the use of special forces.


Edited by stonedfish (12/05/02 04:00 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113531 - 12/05/02 01:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


That is not the only reason, but it is a big part of it.



And don't tell me, corporate executives are all soooo hard working? Makes you wonder why they need so much corporate welfare doesn't it. Remember the legendary "privatisation" of the railways in England where the government handed over our railways to a bunch of corporate tossers (making many of them millionaires overnight) who commenced to fleece every penny they could out of the gravy train before they ran the industry into meltdown. Yes, what wonderful, hard-working people corporate executives are.


People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives.


I think you'll find the average american worker works harder than any corporate executive could possibly imagine. For a hundreth of the pay. Corporate executives arn't called "fat cats" because they work hard.


Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard
they work? You are basing the assumption of all executives being "fat cats" on
your Leftish class biases.

My grandmother was married to a CEO of a major company(they have since divorced). I saw firsthand how hard CEO's work. He worked AT LEAST eighty hours a week. He hardly ever had time for any leisure. He busted his ass to get where he was, and he busted his ass to stay where he was. Is that the life for me? Hell no. I would rather be poor than work as hard as he did and go through
as much stress as he did. But, he made his choices, just like you can make yours.



RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113557 - 12/05/02 01:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


by the way, the rich person is there because they put themselves there with their own effort, and they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor


They enjoy alot of people's fruits. They've enjoyed most of my fruits most of my life. I put them there as much as they did.


I don't understand what you are saying here.

RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113626 - 12/05/02 01:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

They don't just profit from their own labor, they proffit from the labor done by me and others. You seem to think they did it themselves, but they USED other people to get where they are. In America that use is usualy reasonably compensated, but none of them are entirely "self made" unless they never hired an employee, and did all the work themselves, and even then you have to give some of the credit to their customers/clients.

That's how you get rich, not so much proffiting from your own fruits, but from proffiting off the fruits of others. It's not a bad thing nessisarily, I hope to do it some day, but I do plan on shairing the collective "fruits" more fairly than many others do.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1113633 - 12/05/02 02:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We sent hundreds of special forces troops into Afghanistan to bring down al-Quaida.

It was the taliban actually. Al-queda are still going strong and all the sep 11 hijackers were from saudi arabia, not Afghanistan. Pretty long way between the two countries..did you miss?

Anyway, you've installed a former oil company consultant as the "interim leader", appointed a former Unocal consultant as the new "ambassador to afghanistan" and a new deal has been signed to start building that oil pipeline through the country that the taliban wouldn't allow you to. Now the oil companies have got what they wanted you won't be hearing much about Afghanistan.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113667 - 12/05/02 02:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard

Yep, I've know more than I ever wished to know unfortunately. Compared to how hard i've know others work, those guys didn't know they were born. 4 hour champagne lunches, days at the races. I would have been embarrassed to call it "work". All you heard them say was bullshit like "I worked 75 hours this week". I tried not to mention that 70 of those hours were spent tossing it off in your office, taking a few phone calls and taking 4 hour luncheons while paying yourself 30 times more than the other workers in the company.

I guarantee you could take any corporate executive in America to a Nike factory in south east asia, tell him to work alongside the 10 year olds and within 6 months he would suffer total physical and mental collapse. The 10 year olds would still be going strong.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113685 - 12/05/02 02:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


They don't just profit from their own labor, they proffit from the labor done by me and others. You seem to think they did it themselves, but they USED other people to get where they are.


They used people to get where they are. Just like people getting public
assistance used other people's money to get where they are. There is a big
difference however. An employee chooses to work for someone. They are not
being "exploited". They are in a symbiotic relationship with the employer. The
employee's effort earns his boss money, and the boss compensates the
employee by giving him money. If the employee does not like the arrangement and
its conditions, he is free to leave.

A person getting public assistance gets their money from people who pay taxes.
The person getting the assistance didn't do anything to earn it. You are taking the
fruits of someone else's effort and distributing it to people who expended no
effort. That, my friend, is USING people.


RandalFlagg





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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113715 - 12/05/02 02:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The employee's effort earns his boss money, and the boss compensates the employee by giving him money

It's just the discrepancy between the two figures that's the problem....

If the employee does not like the arrangement

Life isn't always that simple for many people. There arn't many magical firms that pay 10 times more than every other firm you see. It's called the "race to the bottom". One firm pays a crap wage and every other firm tries to undercut that wage and exploit workers even more. It's all pure short-term profit making.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113777 - 12/05/02 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard



Yep, I've know more than I ever wished to know unfortunately. Compared to how hard i've know others work, those guys didn't know they were born. 4 hour champagne lunches, days at the races. I would have been embarrassed to call it "work". All you heard them say was bullshit like "I worked 75 hours this week". I tried not to mention that 70 of those hours were spent tossing it off in your office, taking a few phone calls and taking 4 hour luncheons while paying yourself 30 times more than the other workers in the company.


Well, in my experience, people in high level positions do not have it that easy. My grandma's former husband did not spend his workday sipping champagne. He spent it pouring over financial reports, settling disputes and disagreements within the company, being on call twenty-four hours a day, and doing all kinds of shit. He didn't spend his working life on the golf course, as you seem to think most
executives do.

And, anyway, when it comes to executive type people getting paid a
certain amount, it is because a board of directors has chosen to pay them that.
The board of directors is elected by the shareholders. If the shareholders
think the board of directors is over-paying people, they can get rid of them.
i.e. democracy.


I can throw out another example of well-paid and hard-working people.
My Mom didn't get her degree until late in her life. She worked at low-paying jobs
until she got her degree. These jobs were easy, required very little skill, anybody
could have done them, they were not very stressful, and therefore they didn't pay
well. When she got her degree, she got a job that paid well. But, she had to bust
her ass. She worked at least sixty hours a week, under all kinds of pressure
and deadlines. She has money now, but she does sometimes look back and
realize how much easier her life was before, in certain respects.

Or my friend, who moved to Boston and got an 80,000 a year job. He worked at
least twelve hours a day and was on call at all times. He had money, but he
worked very very hard to get it.

When people earn a certain amount of money, it is usually correlated to the
amount of skill they have in a certain field and the amount of effort they put forth.
Someone who has great talent and ambition in a certain field, and who is able to
provide something that people want or need, deserves to profit from it. Somebody
who does not put forth much effort to become skilled in something, or who does
not try to advance, or who is only capable of doing simple things that anybody
can do, is not going to get paid much. Their labor is not that valuable. They
shouldn't be paid large sums of money for doing something that is easy and not
valuable.



I guarantee you could take any corporate executive in America to a Nike factory in south east asia, tell him to work alongside the 10 year olds and within 6 months he would suffer total physical and mental collapse. The 10 year olds would still be going strong.


I disagree with how American companies go to other countries with lax
environmental and labor laws, so they can take advantage, and profit from it.
Thank Goodness I was born in a country that has environmental and labor laws,
so that I didn't have to work in a sweatshop for 2 cents and hour when I was six
years old.


RandalFlagg



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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113779 - 12/05/02 02:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Have you ever known a CEO or an executive well enough to determine how hard

Yep, I've know more than I ever wished to know unfortunately. Compared to how hard i've know others work, those guys didn't know they were born. 4 hour champagne lunches, days at the races. I would have been embarrassed to call it "work". All you heard them say was bullshit like "I worked 75 hours this week". I tried not to mention that 70 of those hours were spent tossing it off in your office, taking a few phone calls and taking 4 hour luncheons while paying yourself 30 times more than the other workers in the company



Why should we believe this falsehood? This is fantasy is straight from the marxists handbook. You are not a very convincing liar.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (12/05/02 02:43 PM)


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Captain Jack]
    #1113784 - 12/05/02 02:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the difference between bush and bin laden is bin laden convinces someone to hijack a plane full of civillians and crash it into a building full of thousands of innocent civillians. i mean, exactly what nation is he declaring war for anyway? bush uses his military to go after military targets and soldiers. i can't remember the last time we hijacked a plane and crashed it into a building full of innocent bystanders. can someone refresh my memory? :smirk:


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1113806 - 12/05/02 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think that my 12/05/02 7:40 pm post should serve as an effective answer to both your 7:08 pm and 7:21 pm posts.

RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113807 - 12/05/02 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't believe in giving handouts, but giving a "hand up" is fine.

Some things some would call a handout are OK by me. Welfare has a place, but some people abuse it, and become too comfortable there.

There needs to be more childcare services for single parents, as long as they are working. Public school provides this to a certain extent. I'm not saying the parents nessisarily deserve it, but the children do.

How much can child care cost anyway, one person has to watch them for a few hours a day, and make sure they don't eat any glass or something. I'm not sure why child care is so damned expensive. It shouldn't cost more than $1 an hour.

Seems like they could employ some of the people in public housing to do it with an especially competent person there to oversee them to make sure no crack addicts were going to try to eat one of them.

There needs to be more of an effort to get some labor back out of the people who are getting financial aid.

There should be a small computer lab at all of these government housing facilities too, and online classes provided to help people get some education if they have spare time.

But it really is hard to do much of anything with a kid crawling all over you.


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1113811 - 12/05/02 02:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"...the people are waaaaay fatter than in Europe."

and yet we have the best athletes in the world.  :smirk: i'd like to know what they are basing their findings on. i know that they did a study in the states saying that houston was the fattest city in america and it was due mainly in part to the fact that we had the most fast food resteraunts per sq. mile or something. which doesn't really mean that the people are fat.


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"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113828 - 12/05/02 02:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

But, keep in mind that America is a
country where you can do or accomplish anything you want to, if you only put
your mind to it.


How naive you are. You can accomplish "what you want to" if you have capital and/or state protection. Most individuals do not have either and are stuck working shit jobs just to keep their heads above the water.

the iron fist behind the invisible hand



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Invisibleooo
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113846 - 12/05/02 02:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives.


Bullshit. As if capitalism had some built in mechanism to look out for its laborers! Ha. All of your examples came about via hardwork on the part of the working class, many of which were socialists.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113875 - 12/05/02 03:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thank Goodness I was born in a country that has environmental and labor laws, so that I didn't have to work in a sweatshop for 2 cents and hour when I was six years old.

No, do not thank GOODNESS (tm). Thank the hardworking labor organizers at the turn of the century.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113879 - 12/05/02 03:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


I don't believe in giving handouts, but giving a "hand up" is fine.



I am the first person to admit that pure capitalism does not work. There need to
be controls. And, I agree with a slight injection of some socialist policies(anti-
monopoly laws, government intervention in an economic issue when public
safety is jeopardized, etc...) into how we manage our economy. The American
system of government allows us to make changes as we see fit.


Some things some would call a handout are OK by me. Welfare has a place, but some people abuse it, and become too comfortable there.


There is a place for public assistance. Some people do really need help. And,
I don't mind my money being used for programs that I agree with and that
actually show RESULTS in improving the lot of people.

I agree with you on that I think that all public assistance should be based on the
premise of "a hand up" and not a "hand out". When you give something to
someone for free, they oftentimes will not appreciate it as they would if
they had worked for it. Don't give a man a fish, teach him how to fish. Teach and
help people to be self-sufficient.


There needs to be more childcare services for single parents, as long as they are working. Public school provides this to a certain extent. I'm not saying the parents nessisarily deserve it, but the children do.


Very tough issue there. People who bring children into this world and cannot
support them. On the one hand I don't want to be held responsible for someone
else's responsibility or mistake. On the other, these are children, and who does
not feel sympathy for a child who is not receiving all that they need to be healthy?

Very very tough issue. The bottom line is, in order to take care of all of the
children in this country that are in households that are not capable of taking care of
them, taxpayers have to expend HUGE amounts of money. We just have to
decide if we are willing to pay that expense.


There needs to be more of an effort to get some labor back out of the people who are getting financial aid.


Well, they do have to pay the loans back.


There should be a small computer lab at all of these government housing facilities too, and online classes provided to help people get some education if they have spare time.

I am in agreement that we really need to focus on education programs in America.


But it really is hard to do much of anything with a kid crawling all over you.


Shouldn't have had the kid in the first place if you weren't ready to.


RandalFlagg


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113896 - 12/05/02 03:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


But, keep in mind that America is a
country where you can do or accomplish anything you want to, if you only put
your mind to it.


How naive you are. You can accomplish "what you want to" if you have capital and/or state protection. Most individuals do not have either and are stuck working shit jobs just to keep their heads above the water.


You can accomplish what you want to if you put forth an effort and get an
education. If you are stuck working in a shit job that you hate, it is your own doing.
If it's so bad, get another job.


RandalFlagg




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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113902 - 12/05/02 03:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives.



Bullshit. As if capitalism had some built in mechanism to look out for its laborers! Ha. All of your examples came about via hardwork on the part of the working class, many of which were socialists.


Capitalism does not have a built in mechanism to look out for laborers. But, democracy does.

RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113903 - 12/05/02 03:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i still say that everybody has the opportunity to succeed. it starts when you are in grade school. if you want to be an athlete you have the opportunity to be one. if you want to be a musician you can. if you want to be a writer you can. if you want to go to college then you buckle down and stay on top of your grades and try for an academic scholarship. or try for an athletic one. or work full time and go to school part time. my point is that whatever it is you want to do, you need to come up with a plan to accomplish it and put it into motion. i'm not saying it easy or that it is going to happen overnight but if you really keep after it then i believe it will happen for you. you can't just sit around and say "i wanted to be a doctor" all your life and never do anything about. then, when you're 50, turn into an alcoholic and go aroung bitching all your life about how you were kept down by the system. i'm not saying that i'm one of those successful people but i'm where i'm at because of the decisions i've made and not some secret plot by the government to "keep me down". and i have made steps to accomplish my goals. but that's just what i think. :wink:


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113907 - 12/05/02 03:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Thank Goodness I was born in a country that has environmental and labor laws, so that I didn't have to work in a sweatshop for 2 cents and hour when I was six years old.



No, do not thank GOODNESS (tm). Thank the hardworking labor organizers at the turn of the century.


Yes. I do thank them. They felt there was a need for change, and they
participated in the democratic process to bring about that change.

RandalFlagg




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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113931 - 12/05/02 03:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You either consume like the herd... or try and be self-sufficent... would be a challenge but you would have so much to look back on... too bad they would probably huff and puff and blow your house down for the simple fact that you are not fueling their economy. They'd probably label you a smelly hippy or something. Not like it would matter. But ignorance from them is always shown.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Droz]
    #1114046 - 12/05/02 04:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>It was the taliban actually

Yeah my bad, it's been edited.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1114349 - 12/05/02 05:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Do what I'm going to do.

Get a degre in Electro-Mechanical Engineering, and build an army of robots to take over the world.  :cool:


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1114426 - 12/05/02 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How do you feel about bootlegging software?

I get almost all my software pirated. Some day, when I have money, I might pay for some of it, but not today!  :cool: :smirk:


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1114437 - 12/05/02 05:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:

"People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives."

I think it's worth pointing out that every single one of the items listed here was first proposed, fought for, and pushed through legislation by liberals. They were also fought tooth and nail by conservatives, and are STILL being fought by many conservatives and by people who call themselves Libertarians (whatever the hell that means--I see so-called "libertarians" on this forum arguing that 200 billion in taxpayer's money should be spent invading Iraq).



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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1114731 - 12/05/02 07:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:


"People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives."



I think it's worth pointing out that every single one of the items listed here was first proposed, fought for, and pushed through legislation by liberals.


Very true. I admire liberal altruism and concern for their fellow man. "Progressive" ideas have resulted in beneficial things happening
in our society.

RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1114742 - 12/05/02 07:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


How do you feel about bootlegging software?

I get almost all my software pirated. Some day, when I have money, I might pay for some of it, but not today!


Shit. Another touchy subject. You could argue that by pirating it you are obtaining
it for free, therefore depriving the software company of it's deserved profits.
Or you could say that by pirating it you are not causing any noticeable damage or
loss to the company, because they are not going to know.

RandalFlagg


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1114874 - 12/05/02 08:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Countries where the people do not have a say (or they have a small insignifigant say) in the political process: North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan.

My point was that there's maybe 5 countries in the world "whose people aren't allowed to vote." If you change it to countries where people have an insignificant say in the political process, then you need to add the United States to your list. Did we have any say on the Patriot Act that pretty much violates our Constitutional right to privacy? Did we have any say in forming the Department of Homeland Security which will cost taxpayers $38 Billion each year? I've sent numerous letters to Congress about these issues (mainly that I think the people deserve a say in them), but they don't seem to care about my input.

The reason we are not allowed to vote on important issues directly is because the founding fathers realized that direct democracy was too volatile, because (shock!) the will of the majority is often fickle and easily manipulated. They therefore devised a system of elected representatives who would run the country with more stability.

Wow, now that's what I call American propaganda at it's finest! What a perfect excuse to take power from the people.

Are there countries without a constitution? "YES"

I did an Internet search, and I couldn't find one. Maybe you can?

Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against my will, and if I am poor (which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.]

I don't think anyone in a Socialist country would argue with your point. No Socialist country believes capable people should be allowed to "mooch" off others for nothing. What they believe is that the people who work 40 hours a week at McDonalds deserve more for their efforts, especially if they're trying to raise a family and don't have time to work 40 hours a week AND go to college AND take care of the family at the same time.

If I am a military commander, it is my duty and responsibility to do whatever I can to win. In order to win, you must inflict the most casualties on your enemy, while sustaining the least amount of casualties in your own forces. In order to do this, you need to take advantage of technology. If I can send a one million dollar missile and cause tons of damage to the enemy, as opposed to sending in troops, not causing as much damage to the enemy, and losing a lot of my own forces, well I am going to use the missile. If the enemy thinks I am a coward, I don't care. Tough shit. Fuck them. I am going to win and that is all that matters.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you! I wasn't arguing that we don't have the smartest military, but simply that we might not be considered the world's bravest military (and that's perfectly ok with me!)

In America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.
"What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?"
Look at the countries that I listed above. In a lot of those countries you will be
executed for raising even a hint of dissent.


True, but I did say "besides some 3rd world countries". My point was that the right to protest is a given in any modern country - it isn't anything unique to the United States.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1115002 - 12/05/02 08:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>Are there countries without a constitution? "YES"

Great Britain does not have a writen constitution, rather all their laws and legislation are based on precident. Also, America was the first country to have such a Constitution, after which most of the world modeled their's.


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1115300 - 12/05/02 09:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Did we have any say on the Patriot Act that pretty much violates our Constitutional right to privacy? Did we have any say in forming the Department of Homeland Security which will cost taxpayers $38 Billion each year? I've sent numerous letters to Congress about these issues (mainly that I think the people deserve a say in them), but they don't seem to care about my input.

actually you did have a say in those issues. the last elections that were just held a month or so ago was your chance to defeat those pieces of legislatures. and before that there was the presidential election. the thing you need to keep in mind that you are not just voting for the candidate. you are also voting for any subsequent bills they might have a hand in passing. that is why it is so important to follow the campaigns so closely and know how your candidate stands on the issues before you vote for that person. if you don't vote them you're throwing your say away. if you do vote and your candidate doesn't win, don't blame the system because you did have your say.


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1115312 - 12/05/02 09:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Countries where the people do not have a say (or they have a small insignifigant say) in the political process: North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan.


My point was that there's maybe 5 countries in the world "whose people aren't allowed to vote." If you change it to countries where people have an insignificant say in the political process, then you need to add the United States to your list.


Americans have an insignifigant say in the political process? We can elect our president. We can elect our federal congressmen. We can elect our state congressmen and governors. We can elect our local(county and city) officials. And you say that we don't have a say in the political process???

These countries that I listed are ruled by theocratic dictatorships, monarchies, or outright tyrants. I'd say America has a hell of a lot more freedom than they do.


Did we have any say on the Patriot Act that pretty much violates our Constitutional right to privacy? Did we have any say in forming the Department of Homeland Security which will cost taxpayers $38 Billion each year? I've sent numerous letters to Congress about these issues (mainly that I think the people deserve a say in them), but they don't seem to care about my input.


This whole "terrorism" thing is fucked up. If we didn't kiss Israel's ass, none of
this shit would have happened. Let those Middle East fucks blow each other up. I don't give a shit, and I don't think we should be involved in it in any way.


The reason we are not allowed to vote on important issues directly is because the founding fathers realized that direct democracy was too volatile, because (shock!) the will of the majority is often fickle and easily manipulated. They therefore devised a system of elected representatives who would run the country with more stability.



Wow, now that's what I call American propaganda at it's finest! What a perfect excuse to take power from the people.


It is not propaganda. It is knowledge of history. Pure democracies are terribly
volatile. Having elected representatives has nothing to do with taking power from people. It has to do with allowing people to pick WHO is in power, and this person who is elected, then makes the decisions.


Are there countries without a constitution? "YES"


I did an Internet search, and I couldn't find one. Maybe you can?


When you said the whole "Constitution" thing, I assume you were referring to
a document or a policy that a country has that guarantees certain freedoms or
rights. Look at what goes on in some of those countries that I listed above and
you will see that the people there have little or no rights.


Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against my will, and if I am poor (which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.]


I don't think anyone in a Socialist country would argue with your point. No Socialist country believes capable people should be allowed to "mooch" off others for nothing. What they believe is that the people who work 40 hours a week at McDonalds deserve more for their efforts, especially if they're trying to raise a family and don't have time to work 40 hours a week AND go to college AND take care of the family at the same time.


Why should I supplement someone's income, who does work that is easy and
not valuable? They are the ones who have made it so that they are not
educated or ambitious. I should not be required to help take care of them, or their
children they had that they cannot afford to support.


In America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.
"What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?"
Look at the countries that I listed above. In a lot of those countries you will be
executed for raising even a hint of dissent.


True, but I did say "besides some 3rd world countries". My point was that the right to protest is a given in any modern country - it isn't anything unique to the United States.


I know that freedoms aren't unique to the United States. But, just because these
freedoms are not unique to this country, does not mean that they should not be noticed and cherished.

RandalFlagg



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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1115379 - 12/05/02 10:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan



Quite a prestigious list to compare the U.S.A to :tongue:
In parts of Egypt they include licking a hot iron as part of your trial and if your tongue blisters it is determined you are lying. Really do you wanna defend your actions by essentially saying" but in the Congo it's worse!"


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Edited by sir tripsalot (12/05/02 10:12 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1115409 - 12/05/02 10:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quite a prestigious list to compare the U.S.A to
In parts of Egypt they include licking a hot iron as part of your trial and if your tongue blisters it is determined you are lying. Really do you wanna defend your actions by essentially saying" but in the Congo it's worse!"


Yes, I guess I did pick the bottom of the barrel. But, I guess I was trying to
illustrate that there are places in the world that are absolutely horrid to live in, and
America isn't all that bad.

RandalFlagg



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1115533 - 12/05/02 11:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I agree that "America isn't all that bad", and I think this thread should have been called "To All Americans Who have Criticisms of America".

I just think it's not unpatriotic to point out things that could be improved on, because if we keep pretending "everything's just perfect", things could get worse.

Anyways, God Bless America (or whatever the equivalent Athiest slogan is).


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1115545 - 12/05/02 11:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>I agree that "America isn't all that bad", and I think this thread should have been called "To All Americans Who have Criticisms of America".

But if you constructively criticize America, you are excersizing your guaranteed right to free speech. This post was directed to the idiots who constantly bitch but don't do a goddamned thing to imporve this country. Nevertheless, I am finding the replies here very interesting.

>I just think it's not unpatriotic to point out things that could be improved on, because if we keep pretending "everything's just perfect", things could get worse.

A patriot is "one who loves, supports, and defends one's country," not one who blindly follow's one's government. That would be nationalism. You are 100% correct.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1115940 - 12/06/02 01:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

When people earn a certain amount of money, it is usually correlated to the effort and talent..

As Marlon Brando said to Val Kilmer:

"Never confuse the size of your paycheque with the size of your talent"


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1116283 - 12/06/02 04:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"the difference between bush and bin laden is bin laden convinces someone to hijack a plane full of civillians and crash it into a building full of thousands of innocent civillians. i mean, exactly what nation is he declaring war for anyway? bush uses his military to go after military targets and soldiers. i can't remember the last time we hijacked a plane and crashed it into a building full of innocent bystanders. can someone refresh my memory?"

I personally don't consider the death of someone in the military more acceptable than the death of someone not in the military.
Innocence is a subjective term.....
I'm not saying Bush is as "bad" as bin Laden or anything (I think there's a tremendous difference), I just think you're off for criticizing bin Laden for not crashing the planes himself. Leaders lead. Soldiers die in the trenches....


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1116563 - 12/06/02 10:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


I agree that "America isn't all that bad", and I think this thread should have been called "To All Americans Who have Criticisms of America".

I just think it's not unpatriotic to point out things that could be improved on, because if we keep pretending "everything's just perfect", things could get worse.


A democracy is healthy when it is full of informed people who question.
criticize, and yes, even complain. But, most of the people I see that "bash"
America on this board, offer up viciously mean attacks on this country
and its citizens(ironically, they are usually American citizens themselves).
Their arguments never seem to be well constructed or supported by
evidence.


RandalFlagg


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1116569 - 12/06/02 10:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


When people earn a certain amount of money, it is usually correlated to the effort and talent..


As Marlon Brando said to Val Kilmer:

"Never confuse the size of your paycheque with the size of your talent"


When someone earns money, it is because someone else willingly gives it to them.


RandalFlagg


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1116857 - 12/06/02 12:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"and yet we have the best athletes in the world."

That's debatable.

"i'd like to know what they are basing their findings on. i know that they did a study in the states saying that houston was the fattest city in america and it was due mainly in part to the fact that we had the most fast food resteraunts per sq. mile or something. which doesn't really mean that the people are fat. "

There's lots of hard science to back this one up. The US has an obesity rate of something like 20% right now, and it's on the rise. I don't really know the rates for european countries, but they're definately a lot lower.

I remember one of the strangest things I noticed about Paris when I visited there was that EVERYONE was thin. The only fat people I could find were American tourists.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1116870 - 12/06/02 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1116889 - 12/06/02 12:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

I remember one of the strangest things I noticed about Paris when I visited there was that EVERYONE was thin. The only fat people I could find were American tourists.



My wife is from The Netherlands, one year when my son was about 3 or 4 he was visting with her and they were with his grand parents. They went to an amusement park and my son had someting to ask his grandmother, "Oma, why don't they let any fat people in here?" Having been to Disneyland in California, he noticed a marked difference in the bodies of people at the Dutch amusement park.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Evolving]
    #1117110 - 12/06/02 02:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Americans are fat fucks. I have been all over the US and all over Europe and verdict is that Americans are fat. I think it is symbolic of our wealth as well.


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1117144 - 12/06/02 02:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your poor people are fatter than your rich folks. That's fucked right up.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1117203 - 12/06/02 02:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No matter where you go, your not going to be free from america. It opresses most of the rest of the world. I dislike america for what it does to the rest of the world. How could i make a difference from some, american made trash pile in Peru?


--------------------


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1117215 - 12/06/02 02:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think that coorlates with the fact that fast food has become bigger in fat content and actual size of meals and the price of it has dropped dramatically.

I've said this before here but it was over a year ago: A friend visited the states and was absolutley blown away by how many fat people there were. He saw familys of fat people marching down the street and bus drivers,cabbies that were 300lbs +. I think he was in San francisco. Another friend on a baseball tournement in South Carolina was surprised by the attitude of the hosts there who had a pyramid of "moon pies" waiting for them on their arrival and telling them to eat em up.
I laugheed at that and joked " You'll get no desert till you finish your moon pie".


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1117286 - 12/06/02 03:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"That's debatable."

well, we can simply look at the latest olympic games results, since those are international competitions. if you combine the medal totals from the 2000 summer games and the 2002 winter games the US has a total of 49 gold medals which is better than any other country. :smirk:


"There's lots of hard science to back this one up. The US has an obesity rate of something like 20% right now, and it's on the rise. I don't really know the rates for european countries, but they're definately a lot lower."

i checked out that link you provided and it says that the information was gathered from phone polls. i don't know about you but i don't think that is the most scientific way to do a study. you never know who you have on the other end of a telephone and whether or not they are being honest. until they bring every citizen in for a physical i'm not buying it. plus, what is their critirea for someone being obese? are they going by height or actual body fat percentage? i know that when i was in the military they went by your height and if you were say 6'2" then you could not way more than 195 lbs. i knew lots of guys who worked out that were easily over that but you wouldn't call them obese. sounds like a pretty sketchy study to me.

"I remember one of the strangest things I noticed about Paris when I visited there was that EVERYONE was thin. The only fat people I could find were American tourists."

i've never been to paris but i have travelled the world extensively and have seen no real difference myself. i've seen just as many overweight people over there as i've seen here. course it's not like i sit around and keep track of how many fat people there are in whatever particular country i might be visiting at the time. that's usually not one of my priorities when travelling. let's see go to rome, see the coloseum, see the ruins, take inventory of fat people,.... :wink:




--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1117424 - 12/06/02 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A) the olympics are stupid
B) the success of the US in the recent winter games was odd because they usually don't do so well
C) having some good athletes doesn't mean your country is not full of fat fucks


--------------------
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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Captain Jack]
    #1117459 - 12/06/02 03:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

just because you do a phone survey doesn't mean our country is full of fat fucks either.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1117484 - 12/06/02 04:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There are dozens of other studies on this topic. Just do a search. It's something people discuss extensively. I've never heard anyone try to deny it. America is a fucking fat place.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1117486 - 12/06/02 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>No matter where you go, your not going to be free from america. It opresses most of the rest of the world. I dislike america for what it does to the rest of the world. How could i make a difference from some, american made trash pile in Peru?

This is the kind of stupidity my post was aimed against. You have no arguments, no examples, just shit to say.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: htownkid28]
    #1117487 - 12/06/02 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I dunno about you guys, but those thick American women turn me on...


http://www.fatfantasies.com/tour1.php?p=0&DATA=Fz%2BEYPXx6fMFQqvBlsOWkUlNRaKH09qp&a=98778


Yum,

RandalFlagg


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1117578 - 12/06/02 04:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

who were you replying to?


--------------------
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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1117611 - 12/06/02 04:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

looks like canada is not going to be too far behind the US.
:smirk:

fat canadians 


--------------------
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"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1117615 - 12/06/02 04:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

America is a set of ideals that half the people and pretty much all of the politicians in this country has forgotten about.





America has forgotten its orginal values, america is a little more free then the rest of the world, BUT AMERICA ISN'T FREE!

The reason the rest of the world see's america, as the great devil, is because there has been an unseen hand in forgien policy and affiars in last 100 years. The world expects us to see threw the lies our leaders give us, but we don't, 80% are in a fucking dream in this country. America is the laughing stock of the world.

YES the USA does have alot of influence in NATO!!! Most of the world realizes that the coming war with iraq, isn't about weapons of mass destruction, but only about oil! NATO knows that the US wants the oil, but the same people who control NATO control the USA.

Even if it is about nuclear weapons, you don't go to war pre-empitve strick based on what arms they have!

I say in a sinical way why not hate america, if 70% of its people don't konw what the hell's going on, then yes blame america as a whole instead of just the goverment, because the american people should be smarter then they are.


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Captain Jack]
    #1117674 - 12/06/02 05:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A) the olympics are stupid
B) the success of the US in the recent winter games was odd because they usually don't do so well

the games are stupid, yet you know so much about them. :wink:


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1117972 - 12/06/02 06:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


because the american people should be smarter then they are.


This coming from a person who has difficulty spelling?


RandalFlagg


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1118758 - 12/07/02 12:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>>>work that is easy and not valuable

I've done plenty of that work, and it wasn't easy. There alot of shit paying jobs out there that are extremely difficult, you just don't need an education to do it. It is still as much work as what most people who make 6,7, or 8 figures.

And not valuable, sure alot of people can do it, but you can't say it's not valuable, if nobody built the housed, or worked the fields, or the factories we would all be screwed. The working class is the most valuable class of them all.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1119633 - 12/07/02 12:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


>>>work that is easy and not valuable



I've done plenty of that work, and it wasn't easy. There alot of shit paying jobs out there that are extremely difficult, you just don't need an education to do it. It is still as much work as what most people who make 6,7, or 8 figures.

And not valuable, sure alot of people can do it, but you can't say it's not valuable, if nobody built the housed, or worked the fields, or the factories we would all be screwed. The working class is the most valuable class of them all.


The value of things relies on availability. If something is readily available, it will not
be very valuable. If this something is scarce, and there is a demand for it, it will
be valuable.

The value of an effort does not rely solely on whether it is physically demanding
or stressful. It mainly relies on the availability of people who can do that certain
something. Lifting bricks is physically demanding, but 95% of the population is
capable of doing it, therefore it is not terribly valuable. Brain surgery is not very
physically demanding, but very few people can do it, therefore, it is valuable.

I am not belittling people who are working-class. I have been working class
myself(I've been a construction worker, grocery store bag guy, factory
laborer, etc..). I am of the opinion that whatever you want to do, go ahead and
do it.


RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1120270 - 12/07/02 07:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If everyone went to school and got a degree, what effect would that have? Somebody has to do the grunt work.

If every person out there were a physicist, or a chemist, or a mathemetician, or a marine biologist, we'd have alot of educated Pizza drivers, and farmhands.

I'm not making an arguement for or against anything, just stating the fact that just about anyone can get an education, and have a good career, but not EVERYONE.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1120440 - 12/07/02 08:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


If everyone went to school and got a degree, what effect would that have? Somebody has to do the grunt work.

If every person out there were a physicist, or a chemist, or a mathemetician, or a marine biologist, we'd have alot of educated Pizza drivers, and farmhands.


True. No matter how educated or uneducated a population is, grunt work still
needs to be done. And, because grunt work is usually not compensated very
well, the people who do grunt work will not make a lot of money. That is a flaw
of capitalism. There are remedies that can be put into effect to lessen this flaw,
such as a minimum wage and public assistance where it is warranted.


In a capitalist economy, there will always be some people who are on the bottom.
Thankfully, the people on the bottom in America are usually there because of their
own actions(or inactions), so not too many people are experiencing hardship that
is not deserved. But, remember that the people in this country who are on the
bottom have access to food, shelter, and things that people in other countries can
only dream of. The people on the "bottom" in this country have it pretty good in
comparison to populations in other parts of the world.


RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1120566 - 12/07/02 10:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>Conflict Theroy


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1121236 - 12/08/02 03:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As murex said, your two paragraphs are diametrically opposed and in conflict with each other.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1121693 - 12/08/02 09:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Huh? Well, jeez...it would be helpful if you gave examples instead of just writing
down two words, or one sentence for that matter.


RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1121916 - 12/08/02 01:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, not really.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1128089 - 12/10/02 09:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Thankfully, the people on the bottom in America are usually there because of their
own actions(or inactions), so not too many people are experiencing hardship that
is not deserved.




Blinded by the dollar your not making any cents.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1128103 - 12/10/02 09:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thankfully, the people on the bottom in America are usually there because of their own actions(or inactions), so not too many people are experiencing hardship that is not deserved.

Blinded by the dollar your not making any cents.

I second that.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1128901 - 12/10/02 02:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thankfully, the people on the bottom in America are usually there because of their
own actions(or inactions), so not too many people are experiencing hardship that
is not deserved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Blinded by the dollar your not making any cents.


Do you actually have anything remotely intelligent to say? Or do you just want
to spout hackneyed one-liners that don't address any of my statements?

Please do expound upon your economic theory of choice. I will take delight in
picking it apart.


RandalFlagg


Edited by RandalFlagg (12/10/02 02:54 PM)


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: hongomon]
    #1128918 - 12/10/02 02:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)


Blinded by the dollar your not making any cents.


I second that.


Blinded by low ambitions, inaction, mistakes, bad choices, and a sickening attitude
that relies on the concept of perennial victimhood. That is why the vast majority of
people who are on the bottom, find themselves there.


RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1131647 - 12/11/02 01:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

we have the technology to make most of the grunt work jobs mechanized and automated for the most part. if we were all rocket scientists we wouldnt be ignorant and as easy to control. the government needs ignorant people to stay in power.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1131787 - 12/11/02 08:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Blinded by low ambitions, inaction, mistakes, bad choices, and a sickening attitude

Strange how in the last 20 years or so the gap between corporate pay and workers pay has diverged so drastically tho. I don't think that the vast majority of americans have suddenly got lazy or been blinded by low ambitions whilst the rich have "worked harder". I think the rich have simply taken more than their fair share. Far, far, far more in fact. Just like they did in the era that led to the economic collapse of 1930. Only the introduction of "communist" measures like the new deal got the economy back on it's feet again.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: 1stimer]
    #1131804 - 12/11/02 08:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

the government needs ignorant people to stay in power.



True, the government also needs people to be as dependant on it as possible to stay in power. Self-governing individuals do not need the coercive and violent appartus of the state.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1132199 - 12/11/02 11:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)


Blinded by low ambitions, inaction, mistakes, bad choices, and a sickening attitude


Strange how in the last 20 years or so the gap between corporate pay and workers pay has diverged so drastically tho. I don't think that the vast majority of americans have suddenly got lazy or been blinded by low ambitions whilst the rich have "worked harder". I think the rich have simply taken more than their fair share. Far, far, far more in fact. Just like they did in the era that led to the economic collapse of 1930. Only the introduction of "communist" measures like the new deal got the economy back on it's feet again.


I addressed this topic in a post somewhere. I stated that corporations are usually
publicly owned. Which means the shareholders own the company. The
shareholders elect the board of directors. The board of directors decide how
much to pay the "overpaid fat-cat executives". If the shareholders think that the
board of directors is paying it's higher-ups too much, then they have the right to
vote new people in. And, if corporations are overpaying their executives, they are
wasting resources, which makes them less competitive and more likely to not
be able to compete in the free market.

Also, I said somewhere else in a post that some work is more valuable monetarily
than other work. It all depends on the supply of people who are able to do the
thing in question. If everyone can do it, it is not valuable. If only a few people
can do it, it is valuable. Not everyone has the business acumen to be able to
run a large company. Therefore, people who can do this deserve to be paid
well for their efforts.


RandalFlagg


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1133768 - 12/11/02 11:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, I was planning on pushing for change, but it's becoming clear to me that it's just too late for me, so I plan on moving to Canada as soon as I can become a citizen. I think you should understand that there's a difference between hating America and hating the status quo. You have to really love America to really push for improvement. However, my love for my country has pretty much faded away by now, and I'm seriously considering moving up north.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: 1stimer]
    #1138304 - 12/13/02 11:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>>we have the technology to make most of the grunt work jobs mechanized and automated for the most part.

True, but then what would the unskilled do for money?


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1148282 - 12/17/02 09:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Check out the free state project.


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1148428 - 12/17/02 10:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If the shareholders think that the board of directors is paying it's higher-ups too much, then they have the right to vote new people in.
Hard for the shareholders to vote on issues when they are lied to about the facts; i.e. cooking the books as has been on the increase. Look at the scandals that have been made public this year alone. This does not count the ones that have yet to be caught or only bent the rules in their favor.

Not everyone has the business acumen to be able to run a large company. Therefore, people who can do this deserve to be paid well for their efforts.
Uh huh. And what about top executives awarding themselves extra bonuses for bankrupting a company while the pension fund for the average worker runs dry?

You don't see a problem with that?

What about top financial analysts pulling in 7 figures a year where almost every report and recommendation was wrong? The only business "acumen" needed there was balls and connections. Who among us couldn't do better than getting 90% of the stock recommendations wrong?

Now Snow gets a pension for 44 years though he only worked at the company for 25 years. And the pension is not based on his salary ala the average Joe, but on the worth of his stock options. Is he really worth 2.5 million a year for life? Did he really add that much worth to the company? I think not.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Swami]
    #1148589 - 12/17/02 11:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's been happening for a long time that directors are given massive pay-outs even when they run the company to shit. A chimpanzee could do a better job than most of them, and you'd only have to pay enough for bananas and carpet-cleaner.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1148816 - 12/17/02 01:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Beam me up scotty, the BORG have taken the shroomery political disscusion forum. I think there are only a few individuals left, the rest have been absorbed into the collective.



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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ]
    #1148833 - 12/17/02 01:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There's more people here who belive in freedom and the US (even though it's not perfect) than you think.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1148840 - 12/17/02 01:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there is at least 2 or 3 people at the Shroomery alone!  :smirk:


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Rono]
    #1148846 - 12/17/02 01:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Somedays I'm not so sure. :confused:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1148851 - 12/17/02 01:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm in an introductory accounting class and a my teacher was a phorensic accountant. She says CEO's get away with murder and nobody deems to do anything about. One simple tactic is the year year before they retire if I remember correctly is buying tons of inventory and overstating assets(I'm wrong here on some part,but something along these lines) and during that fianl year the company experiences record numbers. Then the new guy comes in and it looks like he is driving the company to shit,all at the expense of the employees and shareholders.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ]
    #1148952 - 12/17/02 01:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Um... Scottie never met the Borg. You're thinking of someone else.  :tongue:


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1149046 - 12/17/02 02:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Geordie Laforge would have been the equivalent engine room guy. *shoots self in head for treck knowledge*


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1149208 - 12/17/02 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What about Miles O'Brien?

...can I see that gun for a second?


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1149913 - 12/17/02 07:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

She says CEO's get away with murder and nobody deems to do anything about

You're not wrong trips, the last 20 years they've been like hogs in slop. As the guardian says:

Enough is enough. It is time for the government to consider action against the beggar-thy-neighbour pay rises among business leaders that they are incapable of tackling themselves. Last year, according to the new Guardian-Inbucon survey, top executive pay rose by 17%, six times higher than the national average over the same period. This follows increases of 28% in 2000 and 16.5% the year before. Directors are living in a world of their own.

Their seemingly unstoppable increases bear no relation to extra productivity or exceptional performance. The corporate scandals in America - which the US authorities are at last tackling - have had no effect over here. The gravy train has gathered so much speed no one wants to jump off. Worse, they delude themselves that what they are doing has no relevance to the real world, where average earnings are rising by under 4%. How do they expect people to criticise firemen or London underground drivers for asking for - comparatively - tiny increases when the leaders of industry set such a shameful example?

In the early 1980s, when there was a genuine feeling that senior executives were underpaid - though it never seemed to make any difference to economic growth, the Conservative government reduced the top rate of tax from 80% to almost 40%. This was probably the biggest increase in take-home pay ever recorded, enabling already well paid executives to keep an extra ?40,000 out of every extra ?100,000 they earned. And what did they do? Instead of saying "thank you" they took it as the sound of a starting pistol to ask for ever greater sums of money.

The explosion of top pay has had serious social effects. It has reduced rather than increased incentives at the top because - as the regular tales of corporate pay-offs underline - you now get handsomely compensated for failing as well as succeeding. It has also greatly widened the rift between the top and bottom strata of society. However successful Gordon Brown is in raising the incomes of the very poor, the differential between top and bottom widens because of the huge increases in top pay.



--------------------
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1149934 - 12/17/02 07:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This guy takes the cake:

Sir Christopher Gent, the high-profile chief executive of Vodafone, whose pay deals regularly court controversy, earned ?9m, the survey found.

He was rewarded the largest year-on-year pay rise - some 400% - of all the executives covered by the research, despite running one of the companies which produced some of the poorest returns for shareholders.



--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1149952 - 12/17/02 07:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

All the years .... they melt into a dream.

:crazy: 


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1149967 - 12/17/02 07:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

80% is way too fucking much for anyone to pay in taxes. I bet some of them rationalize it as getting back some of they money they lost due to earlier ridiculous taxation.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1150463 - 12/18/02 02:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

80% is way too fucking much for anyone to pay in taxes.

Indeed it is, but there's more. Believe it or not, in the Socialist Sixties England's highest tax bracket exceeded 90%. This is why The Beatles left England. I remember reading (but I never verified it so it may be exaggeration) that they were getting hit with 98% at one point.

That's why when they wrote the song "Taxman", one of the lines reads:

"There's one for you, nineteen for me."

pinky


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1150478 - 12/18/02 02:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I can hardly believe that. I was born in a communist country where income taxes were around 50%. Don't tell me that capitalist UK had more...


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: zeronio]
    #1150519 - 12/18/02 03:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The "Capitalist" UK is hardly Capitalist, and hasn't been for at least forty years now, although Thatcher managed to halt the trend and even reverse it somewhat. England is closer economically to socialized Sweden than it is to the United States.

At any rate, what I said about England's tax situation when Heath was running the show is accurate. I don't know about the EXACT upper limit, but I guarantee you it exceeded 90% at one point in time. The older members of this forum will back me up on this. Successful people of all kinds were leaving England in droves in the Sixties... that's where the term "the Brain Drain" was coined.

Note that in 1963, even in the United States the top income tax bracket was over 90%. President Kennedy proposed a series of tax rate reductions in 1963 that resulted in legislation the following year dropping the top rate from 91% in 1963 to 70% by 1965.

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (12/18/02 03:51 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1150543 - 12/18/02 03:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

High taxation or upper wage limits could help close the gap between rich and poor which continues to widen all the time. I dont believe that everyone could work hard and get a good slice of the pie. The pie wont strectch that far and nobody wants to share it anyway.

Screw the beatles, they made their money on the back of liberal hippie ideals.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1150652 - 12/18/02 05:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This is why The Beatles left England

Eh? The Beatles never left England. As accurate as ever pink...

Anyone who consider the UK socialist is pretty far out of touch.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1150666 - 12/18/02 05:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Note that in 1963, even in the United States the top income tax bracket was over 90%.

Coincidentally the time of sustained economic growth, high living standards, good wages, good working conditions and an era when life was worth living for the working man.

Contrast that today where the boss's award themselves 400% pay rises while the workers get 2.5% and retirement in the UK is looking increasingly shaky every year. In the 60's most people could retire at 60-65 and lead happy lives, this generation will be working on the breadline untill they are 90. It's time we went back to the economic policies of the 50's and 60's.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1152136 - 12/18/02 03:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The Beatles never left England. As accurate as ever pink...

Check your facts. John Lennon had been a resident of New York for years when he was killed.

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1152641 - 12/18/02 06:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Note that in 1963, even in the United States the top income tax bracket was over 90%.

Coincidentally the time of sustained economic growth, high living standards, good wages, good working conditions and an era when life was worth living for the working man.



Are you insinuating that higher taxes lead to a higher standard of living? Can you please provide the facts and figures to support this.

Incidentally, there are many hidden taxes that exist now that didn't exist then, in the form of government regulations. The cost of compliance, though not a direct tax has the same effect by diverting money that could be put towards increased hiring, capital improvements, increased benefits or higher wages but instead goes to placate the beaurocratic leviathan.

By the way, John F. Kennedy actually pushed for a lower top tax rate because he wanted to spur economic growth. He said something to the effect that, "a rising tide lifts all boats."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1152811 - 12/18/02 07:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Check your facts. John Lennon had been a resident of New York for years when he was killed.

This is so typical of your twisted, useless logic. I repeat. The Beatles never left England.

John Lennon isn't "The Beatles". "The Beatles" refers to a singing group consisting of 4 people.

Can you understand this?

btw, Lennon got shot by a gun maniac in your wonderful country and his wife campaigns to this day for gun control.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1153137 - 12/18/02 09:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The beatles were long gone by the time John moved to New York. Man, if you cant even get your facts straight on mainstream culture but quote them like they are gospel how can I believe anything you say!! :grin: 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Evolving]
    #1153141 - 12/18/02 09:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Higher taxes on high earners should lead to a higher general standard of living across the board. It may lead to a slightly lower standard of living for those in the highest tax brakcets i.e they may have to cut back to only 4 houses in the country. My heart would bleed for them. Unfortunately, I would expect the government to find some way of pumping the money back toward the high earners anyway, as in all walks of life you look after your own and do favours for favours.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1153618 - 12/19/02 05:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, I just spent some time with google to refresh my memory of the Sixties, and it turns out Alex is correct when he says not all of the Beatles did leave England. I bow to his superior knowledge of British Sixties pop culture.

Where I made my error was that I remembered they were complaining mightily about taxes back then and had made plans to leave England, but John was the only one who actually got around to it (although all of the others had second residences outside England -- Paul McCartney spent more time in Los Angeles than he did in England). I must admit that by that time I wasn't following the Beatles as closely as I had earlier (I was into Hendrix and Jefferson Airplane by then) and just assumed they had all left as they had said they would.

Here's a bit from a Beatles website that explains one of their plans to move:

"The Beatles wanted to buy an island in '67, on which to live, partly because "Harold Wilson's taxing us something rotten". Alistair Taylor found an island for ?90,000 that included four beaches, olive groves, half a dozen tall Greek houses, boats, businesses, and a gently curving bay. British law prohibited its citizens from taking large sums of money out of the country, and the same law applies to spending money on property abroad. One must purchase currency called property dollars from the British government and pay with those. After applying for the ?90,000 in property notes the government turned down their request. Eventually the government did agree (but to a maximum of ?90,000) and sold them to the Beatles at a premium of a certain percent. The limit of ?90,000 meant that there would not be cash available to furnish and improve the island. Alistair was in negotiations with the government to increase the limit when the Beatles decided to cancel the project."

I also found the actual figures on the taxes they were paying then. They were paying 83% in income tax (the maximum in England at that time) from their DIRECT earnings (royalties, concert earnings, etc.) and 98% on their INVESTMENT income (interest, capital gains, etc.). I was sure I had heard that 98% figure years ago, but I had mistakenly presumed it was on ALL of their income.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1153791 - 12/19/02 06:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I bow to his superior knowledge of British Sixties pop culture.

I knew the Beatles never left England. You don't need much knowledge of sixties pop culture to know that.

Where I made my error was that I remembered they were complaining mightily about taxes back then

Funnily enough the guy who wrote Taxman stayed in England his entire life. He might've moaned in one song but it obviously went no furthur than that.

John was the only one who actually got around to it

Any evidence John left because of tax's? He certainly never said anything of the sort. And he retired in 1975 anyway.

Paul McCartney spent more time in Los Angeles than he did in England

Not long enough for it to make any difference to his tax status. He still lives in england 40 years later.

Alistair was in negotiations with the government to increase the limit when the Beatles decided to cancel the project."

They were taking an awful lot of LSD in those days. Who wouldn't want to buy an Island. Lennon said they were going to form a commune and live there forever. It was a dream. He stayed living in England for years afterwards. All of them did.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1154951 - 12/19/02 12:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Higher taxes on high earners should lead to a higher general standard of living across the board.



Please explain the reasoning behind this and provide supporting evidence with facts and figures.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Evolving]
    #1155062 - 12/19/02 01:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I ain't gonna link you some facts and figures that would cause you to believe this phenomenon cuz I don't have the patience.

How bout a mental picture.

Say Bill Gates and company were taxed a billion dollars and the money went to build universities, that qualified students could attend for free.

That would directly increase the quality of life of students who can't afford tuition, and increase the education level of the populace, thus indirectly increase the collective experience of the nation(s).

Simple?



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (12/19/02 01:01 PM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Evolving]
    #1155088 - 12/19/02 01:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well OK.

Here's somthing along those lines I happened to be looking at just now..
RAGS AND RICHES


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1155106 - 12/19/02 01:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This is a little more directly about taxes. A good read.

TEN TAX MYTHS


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1155121 - 12/19/02 01:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Not that simple. The money that is taken away in taxes is money that is not used for something else. Money does not normally sit idle in someone's mattress. If it is invested, it can go towards the creation of new businesses and jobs, if it is spent, it goes towards paying the wages of people who produce the goods or services it is spent on.

Usually when governments spend money they do so less judiciously than private individuals, after all, it's someone else's money. In other words, government is notoriously inefficient with it's finances and will squander money by throwing more of it at a problem instead of taking a different approach. Since those in government don't earn the money, but confiscate it via taxation or expansion of the money supply they have no incentive to spend it wisely.

When people obtain something for free they are more likely to squander it, there is no disincentive to spending 8 years in college if you don't have to pay for it, there is no disincentive to changing your major every year if the education is free. This is not to say that everyone would do such things, but certainly there will be a much higher percentage of such actions, when there are no costs involved. An increased level of education does nothing if there are no jobs available for what people are being trained for, to a certain extent a person should weight his/her decisions about what to study based on some sort of pay-off from their studies.

As far as 'indirectly increase the collective experience of the nation(s),' I really don't understand what you are trying to say, people have all sorts of experiences regardless of whether or not they are in school. My most valuable experiences have come outside of the classroom and can't be duplicated in a university classroom.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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