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To All Americans Who Hate America
    #1109654 -

Why are you still here?

*I'm posting this in Political because this forum doesn't attract as many idiots as OTD, who would reply "Fuck America and fuck Bush" and not really answer the question.

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109680 -

I'm assuming many Americans who hate America are staying there in the hopes of making a difference. What's the use of just leaving?...that's just another way of giving up in my opinion.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109708 -

Read my posts under the thread "Liberalism" and you will understand why these
people think the way they do. Why they don't leave....I don't know.

RandalFlagg

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1109712 -

"these people"???


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109763 -

The americans you're talking about, for the most part, don't hate America. They hate the way that america is being run. If they hated america, they wouldn't be complaining. They don't want to destroy it, they want to solve the problem.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phluck]
    #1109832 -

Phluck is right.
But actually solving the problem once and for all would take a lot of work.
Americans, for the most part, are lazy when it comes to changing the old political ways. (there are exceptions, of course.)
"The people" instituting any sort of political change at this point is just a pipe dream.
If you're anti-Bush, you're an enemy.
Perhaps you're even a Terrorist if you have the right books on loan from the library.
Bush is deploying 250,000 (correct me if I'm wrong on that figure) troops INSIDE the U.S.
I for one, plan to stay away from anti-war rallies because I don't enjoy being bullied by armed thugs who are there to enforce "freedom"....it's just an elaborate puppet show anyway.
If one ever got out of hand you can bet that there'd be more National Gaurd troops than protesters on the scene faster than you can say "live ammunition".

So where's the solution?
The only solutions for "problems" of this magnitute are found within.
Inside every person is the answer to their "problems".
I say "problems" because I view every "problem" not as something negative, but an opportunity for growth.
To answer the question, I'm here because I can't afford to move to Canada.

Edited by dee_N_ae (12/04/02 12:24 PM)

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1109925 -

Why are you still here?

Because they don't want to become victims of american foreign policy.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1110046 -

I love my country, and hate the current administration

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1110122 -

In reply to:
Because they don't want to become victims of american foreign policy.

BA HAH HA! Good one! It's funny 'cause it's true.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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To All Humans Who Love America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1110149 -

What the fuck is wrong with you???

I've only ever heard this argument used by rightists, directed toward liberal complainers; "Love it or leave it!"

Do you agree 100% with the state of this country, and its role in the world? I'm sure you don't. Unless you've got your head deeply lodged in the blubbery anus of the Republican Elephant himself, you must see that some things are very wrong with this place, and with George Bush.
Ironically enough, plenty of conservatives DO piss and moan about how society is going to hell, the government is screwing us, etc. etc. At length. Sitting in their Ford Explorer with a flag on the antenna and a Bush/Cheney sticker on the bumper, listening to Rush and getting angry...
Of course, all this can be blamed on the liberals. And the obvious solution is for those damn liberals to all just... leave?
Well that's real mature.

No, I don't think this country would be better off with no conservatives, and I hate the democratic party- and especially anyone who would proudly call themself a Democrat, too. I think Nader would destroy this country faster than Buchanan, [though he might harm the rest of the world less in doing so.]
But I'd never put up an American Flag. To me it stands for worship of our mentally retarded puppet-president, the whole dirty system of billionare corporate sponsorship and nepotism that put him where he is, a billion-dollar-a-day war addiction- oil money, blood money... the war on drug users feeding the prison business, global policing, cultural imperialism, and the blind arrogant brand-loyalty of those that think it still means "land of the free, home of the brave" like it did back in the revolutionary times.

America as a chunk of land and a collection of people is still pretty good, I'm not being personally affected enough by the above evil to want to immediately leave. But America as a political entity and as a brand name to market to the world, is something deserving of our hate.


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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110201 -

Those who critique the United States usually do so not because they have a problem with "America" (i.e. the people and culture) but rather because they see the massive errors in the federal/state governmental structures and the corporations.

The founding fathers of the United States had a problem with being under the boot of imperial England. Did they leave? No, they worked for independence.

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Xibalba]
    #1110207 -

I am referring not to "liberal complainers" but to those who all too often post here saying how much they hate America and have New York as their location. It's not love it or leave, but if you absolutely hate America to the point where you can't stop complaining and find nothing good about this country, then why stay?

The more I read, the more I dislike Bush. In today's paper, there was an article about Bush signing a secret authorization for the CIA to kill an al-Quaida members, US citizens or not. This is a clear violation of the right to a fair trial, but no one knows about it or they deny that it's true.

Frankly, there are many problems with the United States. I could probably write a book twice as long as War and Peace just listing the problems I see everyday and in the news. But I compare those problems with the way America is run and some of our freedoms, and I conclude that this is still the best country to live in.

I have to go to wrestling practice now, but so far you all have not let me down in terms of making good arguements. I'll catch you later tonight.

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110252 -

I am referring not to "liberal complainers" but to those who all too often post here saying how much they hate America and have New York as their location.

Can you provide an example? I think this is simply an unintended strawman, for the most part. I'm sure you can dig up two or three examples of some sixteen year old ranting about America, but so what? Anything more substantial?

Timothy McVeigh commmitted one of the worst terrorist acts on American soil, targetting both the federal government and innocent civilians (American people themselves). From all indictation, McVeigh did not hate America.

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: ooo]
    #1110343 -

In reply to:
Timothy McVeigh commmitted one of the worst terrorist acts on American soil, targetting both the federal government and innocent civilians (American people themselves).


Hmmm, ever heard of 'Sherman's march to the sea?' Ever heard about the numerous nations which existed on the North American continent before the U.S. Government engaged in their systematic subjugation and slaughter of their people? After the war to stop southern secession and the abandonment of federalism, the Nation called The United States turned it's attention to crushing any other independant minded peoples. It used biological warfare (small pox on blankets) along with the total war policy which served it well in subjugating the southern states. These were acts of terrorism which dwarf McVeigh's.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Evolving]
    #1110460 -

fair enough.

but certainly one of the worst acts in modern times in which the phrase "love it or leave it" would apply...hence the example.


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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Xibalba]
    #1110526 -


What the fuck is wrong with you???


Nothing.


I've only ever heard this argument used by rightists, directed toward liberal complainers; "Love it or leave it!"


I don't say love it or leave it. First of all, I say love it. Secondly, I say that if you don't like how things are, you are allowed to participate in the political process in any way that you wish. And, lastly, if you do not feel like expending the effort, or your effort did not bring about the changes that you had desired, you may leave.


Do you agree 100% with the state of this country, and its role in the world? I'm sure you don't. Unless you've got your head deeply lodged in the blubbery anus of the Republican Elephant himself, you must see that some things are very wrong with this place, and with George Bush.
Ironically enough, plenty of conservatives DO piss and moan about how society is going to hell, the government is screwing us, etc. etc. At length. Sitting in their Ford Explorer with a flag on the antenna and a Bush/Cheney sticker on the bumper, listening to Rush and getting angry...


I am not a Bush supporter. I would have preferred if the libertarian candidate had won the presidency. Everyone bitches and moans. Not just liberals and conservatives.

Yes, there are things that this country has done and is doing that I disagree with. In my opinion, our intervention in foreign affairs is misguided. We protect, prop up, or have military bases in, countries that don't want us there. I say fuck them. Let them rot. I don't care about some country halfway across the world. I care about my own country.



Of course, all this can be blamed on the liberals. And the obvious solution is for those damn liberals to all just... leave?
Well that's real mature.


Liberals are not the cause of all problems. But, a lot of problems do arise from liberalism in my opinion.


But I'd never put up an American Flag. To me it stands for worship of our mentally retarded puppet-president, the whole dirty system of billionare corporate sponsorship and nepotism that put him where he is, a billion-dollar-a-day war addiction- oil money, blood money... the war on drug users feeding the prison business, global policing, cultural imperialism, and the blind arrogant brand-loyalty of those that think it still means "land of the free, home of the brave" like it did back in the revolutionary times.

America as a chunk of land and a collection of people is still pretty good, I'm not being personally affected enough by the above evil to want to immediately leave. But America as a political entity and as a brand name to market to the world, is something deserving of our hate.



Thank Goodness, that I live in a country where I am allowed to criticize my government, without fear of being "hauled away".

Admittedly, there are definite problems that need resolved. We do need a hero to
stand up.

But, I have no respect for some privileged young person who lives in a nice suburban house, who has luxuries at his disposal that 99% of the people in this world would kill for, who is capable of going anywhere and doing pretty much anything(within reason), who is allowed to say whatever he wants, and who has a voice in how things are run in his country, and who engages in senseless and excessively vitriolic attacks on America and "what it stands for".

We have some things to be pissed about. But, we have some things to be thankful about as well. When something important is broken you don't kick, belittle, and insult it. You work to fix it.

RandalFlagg

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110570 -

"I conclude that this is still the best country to live in."

The best? It doesn't have the highest standard of living, certainly doesn't have the most freedom, there are lots of countries that rank higher in both of these things, why is the US the best?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: To All Humans Who Love America [Re: Phluck]
    #1110608 -

Probably becuase it's the only one he's been to or can find on a map.. :smirk: (relax...it's a joke...more or less)


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (12/04/02 04:19 PM)

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1110626 -

Because this is where my family is, my friends are and my history was created...

Just picking up and moving to another contry would mean I would have to recreate myself alone.

Besides, short of learning a new language their arent many places to chose from and I dont want to live any place that has snow ever again....


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1110883 -

>Can you provide an example? I think this is simply an unintended strawman, for the most part. I'm sure you can dig up two or three examples of some sixteen year old ranting about America, but so what? Anything more substantial?

I can think of a few examples, such as the historian Howard Zinn.  Here is a man of very high intelligence, yet never misses an opportunity to bash America.  He protests everything in our history from the annihiliation of the Native Americans to World War II.  But this thread was also aimed at those 16 year old loudmouths.  I want to engage these people in a meaningful conversation, in which they can learn that they are not educated enough to cook a pizza, much less bad mouth Bush, or that there really are reasons why they prefer America, or maybe to give them a friendly kick out the door :wink:


>The best? It doesn't have the highest standard of living, certainly doesn't have the most freedom, there are lots of countries that rank higher in both of these things, why is the US the best?

In America, everyone (with few exceptions) above the age of 18 is allowed to vote.

In America, we have a Constitution which protects our rights as citizens.  Granted this document has often been ignored, but there have been many times when presidential acts have been shot down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional.

In America, we have the right to bear arms, thus protecting our most basic right to life.

In America we have an economic system that, despite what you may say, works, and works better than any other country's.  We have unions to protect workers' rights, but a large population and potential working force to counterbalance them.  We have relatively little government intervention in business (democratic socialism), providing optimum condidtions for inventions and new ideas.  If there is one thing to be learned from democratic socialism, it is that it doesn't work.  In Europe, working forces are being replaced by machines.  In Japan, workers go to work early and come home late, spending much of their time out drinking and partying because public transportation is so bad there.  In Russia, where the Soviet Union for years overlooked every aspect of business, people are impoverished and the country is shunned by a global market.

In America, we have a tradition of heroic battlefield accomplishments.  We fought and won a war against the most powerful naval force in the world in our fight for independence.  In World War I, we gave the Allies the little extra nudge to defeat the final major European monarchs.  In World War II, we provided the huge shoved required to defeat Nazi Germany from the west, and later thousands of American soldiers gave their lives to defeat an Asian country which had been brutally fighting the Chinese .

In America, we have a government that is willing to stand up to outside oppression and violence regardless of what the rest of the world says.

Finally, in America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.  In Nevada, citizens decided they'd had enough of the marijuana laws and tried to legalize it.  But citizens also decided they didn't want it legalized, and the proposition never passed.

These reasons, in addition to the life I lead, with plenty of food, drink, entertainment, transportation, and nice shelter, are why I love America.

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