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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: zeronio]
    #1150519 - 12/18/02 01:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The "Capitalist" UK is hardly Capitalist, and hasn't been for at least forty years now, although Thatcher managed to halt the trend and even reverse it somewhat. England is closer economically to socialized Sweden than it is to the United States.

At any rate, what I said about England's tax situation when Heath was running the show is accurate. I don't know about the EXACT upper limit, but I guarantee you it exceeded 90% at one point in time. The older members of this forum will back me up on this. Successful people of all kinds were leaving England in droves in the Sixties... that's where the term "the Brain Drain" was coined.

Note that in 1963, even in the United States the top income tax bracket was over 90%. President Kennedy proposed a series of tax rate reductions in 1963 that resulted in legislation the following year dropping the top rate from 91% in 1963 to 70% by 1965.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (12/18/02 01:51 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1150543 - 12/18/02 01:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

High taxation or upper wage limits could help close the gap between rich and poor which continues to widen all the time. I dont believe that everyone could work hard and get a good slice of the pie. The pie wont strectch that far and nobody wants to share it anyway.

Screw the beatles, they made their money on the back of liberal hippie ideals.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1150652 - 12/18/02 03:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This is why The Beatles left England

Eh? The Beatles never left England. As accurate as ever pink...

Anyone who consider the UK socialist is pretty far out of touch.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1150666 - 12/18/02 03:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Note that in 1963, even in the United States the top income tax bracket was over 90%.

Coincidentally the time of sustained economic growth, high living standards, good wages, good working conditions and an era when life was worth living for the working man.

Contrast that today where the boss's award themselves 400% pay rises while the workers get 2.5% and retirement in the UK is looking increasingly shaky every year. In the 60's most people could retire at 60-65 and lead happy lives, this generation will be working on the breadline untill they are 90. It's time we went back to the economic policies of the 50's and 60's.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1152136 - 12/18/02 01:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The Beatles never left England. As accurate as ever pink...

Check your facts. John Lennon had been a resident of New York for years when he was killed.

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1152641 - 12/18/02 04:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Note that in 1963, even in the United States the top income tax bracket was over 90%.

Coincidentally the time of sustained economic growth, high living standards, good wages, good working conditions and an era when life was worth living for the working man.



Are you insinuating that higher taxes lead to a higher standard of living? Can you please provide the facts and figures to support this.

Incidentally, there are many hidden taxes that exist now that didn't exist then, in the form of government regulations. The cost of compliance, though not a direct tax has the same effect by diverting money that could be put towards increased hiring, capital improvements, increased benefits or higher wages but instead goes to placate the beaurocratic leviathan.

By the way, John F. Kennedy actually pushed for a lower top tax rate because he wanted to spur economic growth. He said something to the effect that, "a rising tide lifts all boats."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1152811 - 12/18/02 05:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Check your facts. John Lennon had been a resident of New York for years when he was killed.

This is so typical of your twisted, useless logic. I repeat. The Beatles never left England.

John Lennon isn't "The Beatles". "The Beatles" refers to a singing group consisting of 4 people.

Can you understand this?

btw, Lennon got shot by a gun maniac in your wonderful country and his wife campaigns to this day for gun control.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1153137 - 12/18/02 07:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The beatles were long gone by the time John moved to New York. Man, if you cant even get your facts straight on mainstream culture but quote them like they are gospel how can I believe anything you say!! :grin: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Loc: London UK
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Evolving]
    #1153141 - 12/18/02 07:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Higher taxes on high earners should lead to a higher general standard of living across the board. It may lead to a slightly lower standard of living for those in the highest tax brakcets i.e they may have to cut back to only 4 houses in the country. My heart would bleed for them. Unfortunately, I would expect the government to find some way of pumping the money back toward the high earners anyway, as in all walks of life you look after your own and do favours for favours.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1153618 - 12/19/02 03:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, I just spent some time with google to refresh my memory of the Sixties, and it turns out Alex is correct when he says not all of the Beatles did leave England. I bow to his superior knowledge of British Sixties pop culture.

Where I made my error was that I remembered they were complaining mightily about taxes back then and had made plans to leave England, but John was the only one who actually got around to it (although all of the others had second residences outside England -- Paul McCartney spent more time in Los Angeles than he did in England). I must admit that by that time I wasn't following the Beatles as closely as I had earlier (I was into Hendrix and Jefferson Airplane by then) and just assumed they had all left as they had said they would.

Here's a bit from a Beatles website that explains one of their plans to move:

"The Beatles wanted to buy an island in '67, on which to live, partly because "Harold Wilson's taxing us something rotten". Alistair Taylor found an island for ?90,000 that included four beaches, olive groves, half a dozen tall Greek houses, boats, businesses, and a gently curving bay. British law prohibited its citizens from taking large sums of money out of the country, and the same law applies to spending money on property abroad. One must purchase currency called property dollars from the British government and pay with those. After applying for the ?90,000 in property notes the government turned down their request. Eventually the government did agree (but to a maximum of ?90,000) and sold them to the Beatles at a premium of a certain percent. The limit of ?90,000 meant that there would not be cash available to furnish and improve the island. Alistair was in negotiations with the government to increase the limit when the Beatles decided to cancel the project."

I also found the actual figures on the taxes they were paying then. They were paying 83% in income tax (the maximum in England at that time) from their DIRECT earnings (royalties, concert earnings, etc.) and 98% on their INVESTMENT income (interest, capital gains, etc.). I was sure I had heard that 98% figure years ago, but I had mistakenly presumed it was on ALL of their income.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Phred]
    #1153791 - 12/19/02 04:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I bow to his superior knowledge of British Sixties pop culture.

I knew the Beatles never left England. You don't need much knowledge of sixties pop culture to know that.

Where I made my error was that I remembered they were complaining mightily about taxes back then

Funnily enough the guy who wrote Taxman stayed in England his entire life. He might've moaned in one song but it obviously went no furthur than that.

John was the only one who actually got around to it

Any evidence John left because of tax's? He certainly never said anything of the sort. And he retired in 1975 anyway.

Paul McCartney spent more time in Los Angeles than he did in England

Not long enough for it to make any difference to his tax status. He still lives in england 40 years later.

Alistair was in negotiations with the government to increase the limit when the Beatles decided to cancel the project."

They were taking an awful lot of LSD in those days. Who wouldn't want to buy an Island. Lennon said they were going to form a commune and live there forever. It was a dream. He stayed living in England for years afterwards. All of them did.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1154951 - 12/19/02 10:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Higher taxes on high earners should lead to a higher general standard of living across the board.



Please explain the reasoning behind this and provide supporting evidence with facts and figures.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Evolving]
    #1155062 - 12/19/02 11:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I ain't gonna link you some facts and figures that would cause you to believe this phenomenon cuz I don't have the patience.

How bout a mental picture.

Say Bill Gates and company were taxed a billion dollars and the money went to build universities, that qualified students could attend for free.

That would directly increase the quality of life of students who can't afford tuition, and increase the education level of the populace, thus indirectly increase the collective experience of the nation(s).

Simple?



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (12/19/02 11:01 AM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Evolving]
    #1155088 - 12/19/02 11:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well OK.

Here's somthing along those lines I happened to be looking at just now..
RAGS AND RICHES


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1155106 - 12/19/02 11:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This is a little more directly about taxes. A good read.

TEN TAX MYTHS


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1155121 - 12/19/02 11:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Not that simple. The money that is taken away in taxes is money that is not used for something else. Money does not normally sit idle in someone's mattress. If it is invested, it can go towards the creation of new businesses and jobs, if it is spent, it goes towards paying the wages of people who produce the goods or services it is spent on.

Usually when governments spend money they do so less judiciously than private individuals, after all, it's someone else's money. In other words, government is notoriously inefficient with it's finances and will squander money by throwing more of it at a problem instead of taking a different approach. Since those in government don't earn the money, but confiscate it via taxation or expansion of the money supply they have no incentive to spend it wisely.

When people obtain something for free they are more likely to squander it, there is no disincentive to spending 8 years in college if you don't have to pay for it, there is no disincentive to changing your major every year if the education is free. This is not to say that everyone would do such things, but certainly there will be a much higher percentage of such actions, when there are no costs involved. An increased level of education does nothing if there are no jobs available for what people are being trained for, to a certain extent a person should weight his/her decisions about what to study based on some sort of pay-off from their studies.

As far as 'indirectly increase the collective experience of the nation(s),' I really don't understand what you are trying to say, people have all sorts of experiences regardless of whether or not they are in school. My most valuable experiences have come outside of the classroom and can't be duplicated in a university classroom.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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