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Invisibleooo
Stranger
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 23
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113828 - 12/05/02 12:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

But, keep in mind that America is a
country where you can do or accomplish anything you want to, if you only put
your mind to it.


How naive you are. You can accomplish "what you want to" if you have capital and/or state protection. Most individuals do not have either and are stuck working shit jobs just to keep their heads above the water.

the iron fist behind the invisible hand



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Invisibleooo
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Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 23
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113846 - 12/05/02 12:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives.


Bullshit. As if capitalism had some built in mechanism to look out for its laborers! Ha. All of your examples came about via hardwork on the part of the working class, many of which were socialists.


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Invisibleooo
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Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 23
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113875 - 12/05/02 01:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thank Goodness I was born in a country that has environmental and labor laws, so that I didn't have to work in a sweatshop for 2 cents and hour when I was six years old.

No, do not thank GOODNESS (tm). Thank the hardworking labor organizers at the turn of the century.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1113879 - 12/05/02 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


I don't believe in giving handouts, but giving a "hand up" is fine.



I am the first person to admit that pure capitalism does not work. There need to
be controls. And, I agree with a slight injection of some socialist policies(anti-
monopoly laws, government intervention in an economic issue when public
safety is jeopardized, etc...) into how we manage our economy. The American
system of government allows us to make changes as we see fit.


Some things some would call a handout are OK by me. Welfare has a place, but some people abuse it, and become too comfortable there.


There is a place for public assistance. Some people do really need help. And,
I don't mind my money being used for programs that I agree with and that
actually show RESULTS in improving the lot of people.

I agree with you on that I think that all public assistance should be based on the
premise of "a hand up" and not a "hand out". When you give something to
someone for free, they oftentimes will not appreciate it as they would if
they had worked for it. Don't give a man a fish, teach him how to fish. Teach and
help people to be self-sufficient.


There needs to be more childcare services for single parents, as long as they are working. Public school provides this to a certain extent. I'm not saying the parents nessisarily deserve it, but the children do.


Very tough issue there. People who bring children into this world and cannot
support them. On the one hand I don't want to be held responsible for someone
else's responsibility or mistake. On the other, these are children, and who does
not feel sympathy for a child who is not receiving all that they need to be healthy?

Very very tough issue. The bottom line is, in order to take care of all of the
children in this country that are in households that are not capable of taking care of
them, taxpayers have to expend HUGE amounts of money. We just have to
decide if we are willing to pay that expense.


There needs to be more of an effort to get some labor back out of the people who are getting financial aid.


Well, they do have to pay the loans back.


There should be a small computer lab at all of these government housing facilities too, and online classes provided to help people get some education if they have spare time.

I am in agreement that we really need to focus on education programs in America.


But it really is hard to do much of anything with a kid crawling all over you.


Shouldn't have had the kid in the first place if you weren't ready to.


RandalFlagg


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113896 - 12/05/02 01:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


But, keep in mind that America is a
country where you can do or accomplish anything you want to, if you only put
your mind to it.


How naive you are. You can accomplish "what you want to" if you have capital and/or state protection. Most individuals do not have either and are stuck working shit jobs just to keep their heads above the water.


You can accomplish what you want to if you put forth an effort and get an
education. If you are stuck working in a shit job that you hate, it is your own doing.
If it's so bad, get another job.


RandalFlagg




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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113902 - 12/05/02 01:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives.



Bullshit. As if capitalism had some built in mechanism to look out for its laborers! Ha. All of your examples came about via hardwork on the part of the working class, many of which were socialists.


Capitalism does not have a built in mechanism to look out for laborers. But, democracy does.

RandalFlagg


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113903 - 12/05/02 01:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i still say that everybody has the opportunity to succeed. it starts when you are in grade school. if you want to be an athlete you have the opportunity to be one. if you want to be a musician you can. if you want to be a writer you can. if you want to go to college then you buckle down and stay on top of your grades and try for an academic scholarship. or try for an athletic one. or work full time and go to school part time. my point is that whatever it is you want to do, you need to come up with a plan to accomplish it and put it into motion. i'm not saying it easy or that it is going to happen overnight but if you really keep after it then i believe it will happen for you. you can't just sit around and say "i wanted to be a doctor" all your life and never do anything about. then, when you're 50, turn into an alcoholic and go aroung bitching all your life about how you were kept down by the system. i'm not saying that i'm one of those successful people but i'm where i'm at because of the decisions i've made and not some secret plot by the government to "keep me down". and i have made steps to accomplish my goals. but that's just what i think. :wink:


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1113907 - 12/05/02 01:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Thank Goodness I was born in a country that has environmental and labor laws, so that I didn't have to work in a sweatshop for 2 cents and hour when I was six years old.



No, do not thank GOODNESS (tm). Thank the hardworking labor organizers at the turn of the century.


Yes. I do thank them. They felt there was a need for change, and they
participated in the democratic process to bring about that change.

RandalFlagg




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OfflineDroz
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1113931 - 12/05/02 01:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You either consume like the herd... or try and be self-sufficent... would be a challenge but you would have so much to look back on... too bad they would probably huff and puff and blow your house down for the simple fact that you are not fueling their economy. They'd probably label you a smelly hippy or something. Not like it would matter. But ignorance from them is always shown.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Droz]
    #1114046 - 12/05/02 02:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>It was the taliban actually

Yeah my bad, it's been edited.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: ooo]
    #1114349 - 12/05/02 03:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Do what I'm going to do.

Get a degre in Electro-Mechanical Engineering, and build an army of robots to take over the world.  :cool:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1114426 - 12/05/02 03:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How do you feel about bootlegging software?

I get almost all my software pirated. Some day, when I have money, I might pay for some of it, but not today!  :cool: :smirk:


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1114437 - 12/05/02 03:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:

"People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives."

I think it's worth pointing out that every single one of the items listed here was first proposed, fought for, and pushed through legislation by liberals. They were also fought tooth and nail by conservatives, and are STILL being fought by many conservatives and by people who call themselves Libertarians (whatever the hell that means--I see so-called "libertarians" on this forum arguing that 200 billion in taxpayer's money should be spent invading Iraq).



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1114731 - 12/05/02 05:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:


"People are greedy. That is why you need laws in place to stop them from
doing bad things. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws, a minimum wage law, organized labor laws, financial aid available to needy people for education, etc..etc.. In America, we have the ability to enjoy the positives of capitalism, and we also have power to control or limit the negatives."



I think it's worth pointing out that every single one of the items listed here was first proposed, fought for, and pushed through legislation by liberals.


Very true. I admire liberal altruism and concern for their fellow man. "Progressive" ideas have resulted in beneficial things happening
in our society.

RandalFlagg


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1114742 - 12/05/02 05:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


How do you feel about bootlegging software?

I get almost all my software pirated. Some day, when I have money, I might pay for some of it, but not today!


Shit. Another touchy subject. You could argue that by pirating it you are obtaining
it for free, therefore depriving the software company of it's deserved profits.
Or you could say that by pirating it you are not causing any noticeable damage or
loss to the company, because they are not going to know.

RandalFlagg


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
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Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1114874 - 12/05/02 06:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Countries where the people do not have a say (or they have a small insignifigant say) in the political process: North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan.

My point was that there's maybe 5 countries in the world "whose people aren't allowed to vote." If you change it to countries where people have an insignificant say in the political process, then you need to add the United States to your list. Did we have any say on the Patriot Act that pretty much violates our Constitutional right to privacy? Did we have any say in forming the Department of Homeland Security which will cost taxpayers $38 Billion each year? I've sent numerous letters to Congress about these issues (mainly that I think the people deserve a say in them), but they don't seem to care about my input.

The reason we are not allowed to vote on important issues directly is because the founding fathers realized that direct democracy was too volatile, because (shock!) the will of the majority is often fickle and easily manipulated. They therefore devised a system of elected representatives who would run the country with more stability.

Wow, now that's what I call American propaganda at it's finest! What a perfect excuse to take power from the people.

Are there countries without a constitution? "YES"

I did an Internet search, and I couldn't find one. Maybe you can?

Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against my will, and if I am poor (which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.]

I don't think anyone in a Socialist country would argue with your point. No Socialist country believes capable people should be allowed to "mooch" off others for nothing. What they believe is that the people who work 40 hours a week at McDonalds deserve more for their efforts, especially if they're trying to raise a family and don't have time to work 40 hours a week AND go to college AND take care of the family at the same time.

If I am a military commander, it is my duty and responsibility to do whatever I can to win. In order to win, you must inflict the most casualties on your enemy, while sustaining the least amount of casualties in your own forces. In order to do this, you need to take advantage of technology. If I can send a one million dollar missile and cause tons of damage to the enemy, as opposed to sending in troops, not causing as much damage to the enemy, and losing a lot of my own forces, well I am going to use the missile. If the enemy thinks I am a coward, I don't care. Tough shit. Fuck them. I am going to win and that is all that matters.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you! I wasn't arguing that we don't have the smartest military, but simply that we might not be considered the world's bravest military (and that's perfectly ok with me!)

In America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.
"What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?"
Look at the countries that I listed above. In a lot of those countries you will be
executed for raising even a hint of dissent.


True, but I did say "besides some 3rd world countries". My point was that the right to protest is a given in any modern country - it isn't anything unique to the United States.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1115002 - 12/05/02 06:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>Are there countries without a constitution? "YES"

Great Britain does not have a writen constitution, rather all their laws and legislation are based on precident. Also, America was the first country to have such a Constitution, after which most of the world modeled their's.


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1115300 - 12/05/02 07:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Did we have any say on the Patriot Act that pretty much violates our Constitutional right to privacy? Did we have any say in forming the Department of Homeland Security which will cost taxpayers $38 Billion each year? I've sent numerous letters to Congress about these issues (mainly that I think the people deserve a say in them), but they don't seem to care about my input.

actually you did have a say in those issues. the last elections that were just held a month or so ago was your chance to defeat those pieces of legislatures. and before that there was the presidential election. the thing you need to keep in mind that you are not just voting for the candidate. you are also voting for any subsequent bills they might have a hand in passing. that is why it is so important to follow the campaigns so closely and know how your candidate stands on the issues before you vote for that person. if you don't vote them you're throwing your say away. if you do vote and your candidate doesn't win, don't blame the system because you did have your say.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1115312 - 12/05/02 07:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Countries where the people do not have a say (or they have a small insignifigant say) in the political process: North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan.


My point was that there's maybe 5 countries in the world "whose people aren't allowed to vote." If you change it to countries where people have an insignificant say in the political process, then you need to add the United States to your list.


Americans have an insignifigant say in the political process? We can elect our president. We can elect our federal congressmen. We can elect our state congressmen and governors. We can elect our local(county and city) officials. And you say that we don't have a say in the political process???

These countries that I listed are ruled by theocratic dictatorships, monarchies, or outright tyrants. I'd say America has a hell of a lot more freedom than they do.


Did we have any say on the Patriot Act that pretty much violates our Constitutional right to privacy? Did we have any say in forming the Department of Homeland Security which will cost taxpayers $38 Billion each year? I've sent numerous letters to Congress about these issues (mainly that I think the people deserve a say in them), but they don't seem to care about my input.


This whole "terrorism" thing is fucked up. If we didn't kiss Israel's ass, none of
this shit would have happened. Let those Middle East fucks blow each other up. I don't give a shit, and I don't think we should be involved in it in any way.


The reason we are not allowed to vote on important issues directly is because the founding fathers realized that direct democracy was too volatile, because (shock!) the will of the majority is often fickle and easily manipulated. They therefore devised a system of elected representatives who would run the country with more stability.



Wow, now that's what I call American propaganda at it's finest! What a perfect excuse to take power from the people.


It is not propaganda. It is knowledge of history. Pure democracies are terribly
volatile. Having elected representatives has nothing to do with taking power from people. It has to do with allowing people to pick WHO is in power, and this person who is elected, then makes the decisions.


Are there countries without a constitution? "YES"


I did an Internet search, and I couldn't find one. Maybe you can?


When you said the whole "Constitution" thing, I assume you were referring to
a document or a policy that a country has that guarantees certain freedoms or
rights. Look at what goes on in some of those countries that I listed above and
you will see that the people there have little or no rights.


Because in most other "industrialized" nations during the past twenty years, they have made signifigant steps towards socialist policies. This will help to bring the poor out of the gutter, but it also takes money away from people who earn it, to support these people who are incapable of supporting themselves. This whole concept disgusts me, because if I have money, I don't want it taken away against my will, and if I am poor (which I have been in my life) I would rather live on the street than be a parasite and mooch off of other people.]


I don't think anyone in a Socialist country would argue with your point. No Socialist country believes capable people should be allowed to "mooch" off others for nothing. What they believe is that the people who work 40 hours a week at McDonalds deserve more for their efforts, especially if they're trying to raise a family and don't have time to work 40 hours a week AND go to college AND take care of the family at the same time.


Why should I supplement someone's income, who does work that is easy and
not valuable? They are the ones who have made it so that they are not
educated or ambitious. I should not be required to help take care of them, or their
children they had that they cannot afford to support.


In America, citizens have a right to protest and change the way things work.
"What country (besides some 3rd world countries) is that not true in?"
Look at the countries that I listed above. In a lot of those countries you will be
executed for raising even a hint of dissent.


True, but I did say "besides some 3rd world countries". My point was that the right to protest is a given in any modern country - it isn't anything unique to the United States.


I know that freedoms aren't unique to the United States. But, just because these
freedoms are not unique to this country, does not mean that they should not be noticed and cherished.

RandalFlagg



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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,486
Re: To All Americans Who Hate America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1115379 - 12/05/02 08:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

North Korea, Vietnam, China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan



Quite a prestigious list to compare the U.S.A to :tongue:
In parts of Egypt they include licking a hot iron as part of your trial and if your tongue blisters it is determined you are lying. Really do you wanna defend your actions by essentially saying" but in the Congo it's worse!"


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Edited by sir tripsalot (12/05/02 08:12 PM)


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