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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: ]
    #2284990 -

I don't think Christianity is being attacked.

Christians don't really have to be good, either, and they can still go to heaven. Christians are supposed to want to be good because how can you continue to sin after Jesus died on the cross for us?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Swami]
    #2285093 -

It seems that any debate between objective and subjective ethics will inevitably lead to a discussion of atheism vs. theism.

However, it does seem logically possible for objective ethics to exist without God. If God does not exist obviously God given morals cannot, but God given morals are not equivalent to simply objective morals. However, objective morals would still seem to require some sort of proclamation. But who is to say whether the the standard giver is either objective or benevolent? Also, is the given action moral because it was proclaimed so? This then seems to imply that the action is arbitrary besides the proclamation of the standard, because if the proclamation was made in an opposing view of the action, the oppsing view would then be moral. If the action is moral besides its proclamation, this then implies an objective standard outside of the standard giver. This then requires re-asking the question of, "Where did the standard of the objective morals come from?"

Subjective ethics is also puzzling. For example, a nearly universally held viewpoint is that it is wrong to harm another individual. But why is it wrong to harm another? What exactly is the essence of harming another? Is it any more than the violation of another individual's personal freedom? If someone feels that it is ok to commit murder, this must be morally acceptable because he is only responsible to his own moral code. A popular viewpoint is that morality is subjective except in circumstances where one violates anothers personal freedoms. If Person A feels it is ok to murder his fellow man, and Person B holds a subjective ethical view but feels murder is wrong, Person B still needs a source of this objective side of his morals, otherwise his objective morals are still based on personal subjectivity. Would he not then be violating his own logic by imposing his will on Person A's freedom to do as he pleases? The view of subjective/objective ethics (i.e. Do what thou wilt lest ye harm another) still necessitates a root of its objective side.

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Swami]
    #2285132 -

I guess a few people sticking feathers up their butt's didnt make them chickens, did they?

What makes it a false assumption? Arent all assumptions unknown, till proven to be correct or incorrect?

we are responsible for the things we do, regardless of what we believe. If it were not true, than i could do anything, and nothing would happen to me. But sadly if i broke the law, i would more than likely go to jail.
Because that is our governing system, "the law".



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What?

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Frog]
    #2285159 -

Quote:
Christians are supposed to want to be good because how can you continue to sin after Jesus died on the cross for us?


Easy--it's his loss, not mine. All I have to do is believe he died for me, and then I can be as bad as I want and still get a free pass into heaven. How sweet is that?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2285174 -

It doesn't work that way. Usually, when someone becomes a Christian, they are motivated, in their hearts, to stop doing wrong. If someone is doing wrong, they generally don't have a love in their heart for Jesus, or God. If they did, how could they do wrong, after learning that Jesus died for their sins?

Supposedly God sees into our hearts. Mouthing the words isn't enough.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Frog]
    #2285203 -

Quote:
It doesn't work that way. Usually, when someone becomes a Christian, they are motivated, in their hearts, to stop doing wrong.


Not from what I've seen. In my experience, once someone becomes a Christian, they are motivated in their hearts to force their beliefs down everyone's throats.

Quote:
If someone is doing wrong, they generally don't have a love in their heart for Jesus, or God. If they did, how could they do wrong, after learning that Jesus died for their sins?


Whoa, hold on. From my understanding, all you had to do to be saved is have faith in Jesus. I don't think faith and love are the same thing.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2285221 -

I can understand your animosity, but there are christians who do not try to force their beliefs on others. Frog is pretty good at this :wink:, or so it seems.

from what i know, to take jesus into ones heart, is to make that connection with god. Because without accepting "him" you cannot get to "god". Judaism doesnt see it that way, but then again, i guess thats not on topic.

Many peopl dont even understand what they are learning, they want something, and they think if they just utter words like frog said, it will come to them.

Its really depressing to see people send you advertisements that look like commercials for a television show, but its an advertisement for a church. As if you can purchase a service (jesus), and get "saved" in return.


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What?

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2285246 -

Dont confuse Religion for Spirituality. Religion is man made.
When Jesus Told the street peddlers to get off the church steps it was clearly a message to religion.

Dont use religion as a way of making money. Every relgion tries to cram their beliefs down their throat. Since Christianity is practically the majority in America. Im sure we have all had them.

But i think most of the people who have animosity towards Christians are simply ignorant on them and only make obvious generalizations to Cram their beliefs down other peoples throats.

As the good quote i believe is said. Practice what you Preach...

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2285482 -

silversoul7 said:
Not from what I've seen. In my experience, once someone becomes a Christian, they are motivated in their hearts to force their beliefs down everyone's throats.



They are not "Christian". Christians are people that follow Christ. When Jesus was here, he didn't shove his beliefs down people's throats. He ate dinner with the prostitutes and tax collectors. He taught his beliefs by living his life as an example to his beliefs.

Quote:
Whoa, hold on. From my understanding, all you had to do to be saved is have faith in Jesus. I don't think faith and love are the same thing.


When one accepts Jesus into one's heart, he is stepping out on faith that God is real and Jesus is real, and he will therefore accept what Jesus said as truth.

If God sends His son to die for our sins, what greater love can God show for us? Therefore, if Jesus tells us what is the right way to live and what constitutes sin, don't we want to stay away from sin because sin offends God? What greater love can we show God, in return, than to stay away from what we are told is sin?

Sin hurts us, it hurts our souls. It doesn't hurt God.



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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Frog]
    #2285568 -

My problem with relying on christianity for those things. I wanted people to look out for me, someone to make things better, things havent been better for me. Its been a roller coaster, i have learned that i cant rely on other things that do not present themselves to me to improve my life. All ive had is me, and when i questioned me, and everybody split. So did everything.

They say "god works in mysterious ways", yeah, my lifes a mystery all right, so much i cant even figure it out. Its all good and all if it turns out good one day and all, sure. But now, my life is a living hell. I dont want to be a fool, i just dont want to have the constant pressuring questions.

I do not think that trying to accept what has worked for so many people will continue to suffice. People need something concrete to bring them together, as thigns only exist as ideas, people will still feud over their beliefs.

Till people can get back to one another i dont think they will be able to realize the merits that christianity has to offer some people.

Now it seems that religion itself is its own tower of babel, trying to reach its own superiority in the sky. Its really ironic... i just wonder if their will be a climax you know. It seems like what i try to think about anything is always crumbling on me... maybe i wasnt meant to handle not having some kind of building stones. Maybe im looking at it in the wrong light. Maybe all this time i was trying to build a castle in the sky, when i just needed "to build a castle of love"... wait. I really dont know.

I think im going f***in nuts. Fuck!  :confused:


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What?

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Frog]
    #2285669 -

Wanted to add one more thing.

I have said before that I don't think karma is inconsistent with the bible.

When we sin, God doesn't punish us. We punish ourselves because we are reaping the negative consequences of negative actions.

When we do what is "right", we reap the rewards.

I am ultimately accountable for my sins, or wrong actions, because of how they impact my life.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2285728 -

"But now, my life is a living hell."

There have been times in my life where I have said that. My sister is going through what appears to be "living hell" right now.

I'm going to have to give an example of how I think God works, when we ask for wisdom and guidance and help.

My sister was living with a guy, unmarried. Turns out he was a meth addict. While she was gone one day, he stole all her stuff. She ended up in a women's shelter. She's also finally going through counseling for stuff she experienced when she was a kid, and she's facing some horrible memories that she has to work through.

A few weeks ago, she called me and we started talking about stuff. Haven't really talked in a lot of years. She was worried that she wouldn't have a place to live when it was time to leave the shelter at the end of February. She has a 7-year old son. I'm not really in a position to help her. I'm living with a friend right now and my budget is so tight it squeaks.

I told her to pray, and not to worry, that God would provide an answer, somehow. I wasn't worried because God has been taking care of me for a really long time now, and I trust that everything will work out the way God intends it, if I trust him, and follow his word.

Two nights ago, my sister became involved in an altercation with another woman who lived at the shelter. My sister was hurt pretty badly. She was also depressed, because of the issues she is dealing with, having no home, a small child, alienated by the rest of my family, and dealing with issues in counseling.

She took 30 xanax in an attempt to commit suicide. She was taken to the hospital and rescusitated.

The next day, social services said they were taking her small son away from her because she couldn't care for him. Social services said that the only way she could keep her son is if she had a family member who could keep an eye on her and her son. As she was packing a bag for him, she prayed to God for help.

Additionally, the shelter told her and the other girl with whom she had the altercation that they both had to move out within 24 hours. Things were looking dire.

She called me and told me what happened. I told my girlfriend what happened. Without hesitation, she said that my sister could come live with us and get back on her feet. My sister told social services, who called me. They provided her with a one-way ticket to California and money for food.

Some of the shit my sister is going through is because of many years of making bad decisions, due to what happened to her in childhood. She didn't deserve what happened in childhood, but that's her karma. She could have worked out those issues earlier and not made those bad choices. The bad decisions, sins, whatever you want to call it, created consequences in her life, bringing her to where she is, right now.

In all of this, God stepped in and provided a way to get my sister out of that situation and provided her a home and a way to keep her son, all in one fell swoop.

My sister could say her life is a living hell, but instead she is just praying and is grateful to God for His intervention. I believe it is an intervention.

I know, I know. "Why isn't God helping the people in Iraq?". Well, that is their karma. This is my sister's karma. God could have not done anything, or He could have provided other options. But I believe this was God's will.

*Disclaimer* This is just what I think. No one else has to believe any of this. *Disclaimer*


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: ]
    #2285792 -

Ok. But you didn't realize it might provoke an attack on Christianity? (rhetorical question, no answer necessary)

Is the web quote itself not an attack on non-theists by directly implying that we are morally irresponsible?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Swami]
    #2286377 -

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: ]
    #2286635 -

...it does not represent what rational Christian thought..
Once again, who is the arbiter of this thought? Where is the agreed upon world-wide repository? There is none.

Your refusal to comment on my post in your mortality thread speaks volumes to me...
Why the continous need to play to the public? That is what PMs are for.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Swami]
    #2286687 -

Swami said:
...it does not represent what rational Christian thought..
Once again, who is the arbiter of this thought? Where is the agreed upon world-wide repository? There is none.



In general, I would say that a fair way to judge a particular interpretation of scripture to be improper is if it is logically contradicted by another part of scripture. Otherwise, it must be judged as irrational upon the basis of improper context. A valid interpretation of an individual ideal must stand logically true in light of the whole of the message, or the whole of the Bible. Frequently, the interpretations of the more outspoken Christians which are likely being referenced here do not stand up under this set of discrimination. Of course, this does not logically exclude the possiblility that there is an interpretation which can pass the above stated discrimination. However in the case of the linked article, the problem lies with fallacy in the author's general logical reasoning via his assumptions.

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: ]
    #2286698 -

Frog: "I don't think Christianity is being attacked. "

MM: "Your counterattack is ..."

Your view of this thread as combative is far from universal.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Swami]
    #2286727 -

I don't see it as an attack on Christianity either, nor do I see it as a straw man.
if you had quoted www.godhatesfags.com to paint all christians, THAT would be a straw man, because only a small percentage of christians think that way, but many christians DO have the belief that their lives are more meaningful because of their belief in an afterlife, so it's not a straw man - it's criticizing christianity as it exists.

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2286761 -

I actually like it when someone brings up a discussion like this because it gives me a chance to discuss what I believe with regard to the subject.  I can't respond to a lot of threads because I have no knowledge of the subject.

This topic, no matter who brings it up, or why, gives me a chance to practice my typing.  :wink:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Christian Accountability [Re: Frog]
    #2286841 -

yeah, and frankly, I don't really care what Swami's motivations are for posting this.
this forum is for discussion of ideas and he brings up a good point in this thread.

if it pisses off a few christians oh boo hoo. get over it. as an equal opportunity offender, I made sure to piss off muslims and other religions as well. :grin:

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