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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22676436 -

i never said anything about teaching children. I was just talking about standardising the training that all American adults should have concerning guns - nationwide. Either for everyone or just as a requirement for those getting a gun.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22676443 -

So, you're going to force every adult in America to get training?


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22676454 -

Enlil said:
So, you're going to force every adult in America to get training?


No, again, i never said that. i said perhaps just as a requirement for those wanting a gun.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22676459 -

That makes anonymously purchasing a gun impossible.  I wouldn't be in favor of that.


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22677123 -

Enlil said:
That makes anonymously purchasing a gun impossible.  I wouldn't be in favor of that.


Dayum enlil!  I really respect that!

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22677266 -

Enlil said:
Nah, regulating education isn't going to work.  High school is not the place to be learning about guns.  Gun education should take forms that reach adults, not children.


My formal training began at age eight.  I believe it most beneficial to begin training at an early age.


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"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #22678213 -

We're not talking about training, though.  We're talking about education.  The government has no business training people how to use guns, but I can see a real benefit to educating the public on the reality of gun ownership and the use of a gun for self-defense. 


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #22678282 -

Enlil said:
We're not talking about training, though.  We're talking about education.  The government has no business training people how to use guns, but I can see a real benefit to educating the public on the reality of gun ownership and the use of a gun for self-defense. 


    Why does the govt have no business training people how to use guns when they are so involved with the use of cars which both have equally deadly potential. Maybe it's a constitutional issue, but that brings up the next point.

    Some Red states are trying to regulate abortion into near impossibility, and I am seeing a similarity here on guns. I live in Illinois, which is a blue state, although 80% of the square miles are probably red, that's not where most of the voters live. So you can get a conceal and carry permit in Illinois, but where I live in the suburbs, every place I go to has sign saying you can't bring a gun in. So basically, other than home protection, you can carry it in your car and either be the good guy or the bad guy or both in a road rage incident, and that's about it.

    All I'm seeing is end runs against the constitution or Supreme Court, with particular states putting in all these regulations that kind of circumvent the principle.

    I didn't read every post in this thread, so I apologise if this was already covered.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #22678698 -

Quote:
does the govt have no business training people how to use guns when they are so involved with the use of cars which both have equally deadly potential.

 

The potential to kill myself using my car for killing is way higher than with a gun . I'm also pretty sure I could kill way more anything with my assault rifle , I doubt it's equal .


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My 3 year old cyan patchhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17135850

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20937710


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #22678802 -

Brian Jones said:
    Why does the govt have no business training people how to use guns when they are so involved with the use of cars which both have equally deadly potential.


I was talking about the federal government, really.  They have almost no power to regulate the use of cars.


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22679041 -

Enlil, would you propose any changes to tackle mass shootings or do you think its just not big enough an issue and that restrictions go too far already?

although specifically islamic active shooters aren't that common at all in the US, if Western activities in the Middle East continue as they have always done, its perhaps a method that would be used more frequently. white supremacist active shooters are more common but could also increase with these tensions.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22679067 -

Mass shootings are a very small issue, and there isn't likely any way to stop or reduce them.  It's typical human behavior to focus on the exceptional cases, though, so people are screaming for a solution.


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22679145 -

Enlil said:
Mass shootings are a very small issue, and there isn't likely any way to stop or reduce them.  It's typical human behavior to focus on the exceptional cases, though, so people are screaming for a solution.


i think absolutely they are almost impossible to stop, especially in the moment. Someone can kill a hell of a lot of people before basic armed police response teams can even arrive.

these exceptional cases of public mass shootings are increasing.

at the very least, the media should change how they cover these attacks.

do you think those on the terror watch/no fly list should be able to buy guns?

do you believe that all arms should be available?

why would you be against simple regulations like enhanced safety features / security protocols. If a parent has a gun and the child/teenager can access it and use it, surely this should be prevented as much as possible? many deaths are from accidents even if you dont want to focus on the crime aspect.

do you think its too restrictive to even do the background checks they already do? I know they are pretty much useless because you can always annonymously buy a gun without checks.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22679263 -

Tipote said:
do you think those on the terror watch/no fly list should be able to buy guns?

I don't think there should be such lists, but if those lists exist, yes, they should be able to buy guns.  Either charge the person with a crime, and prove it in a court of law, or don't deprive him/her of his/her rights.
Quote:
do you believe that all arms should be available?


I believe in reasonable restrictions.  To me, reasonable restrictions means heavily regulating explosives, chemical, and biological weapons.  I don't support clip size limits, automatic weapons bans, or caliber bans.
Quote:
why would you be against simple regulations like enhanced safety features / security protocols. If a parent has a gun and the child/teenager can access it and use it, surely this should be prevented as much as possible? many deaths are from accidents even if you dont want to focus on the crime aspect.

Parents are responsible for their children.  Gun manufacturers shouldn't have to be, and the federal government sure as hell shouldn't be involved in how a parent raises his/her children.
Quote:
do you think its too restrictive to even do the background checks they already do? I know they are pretty much useless because you can always annonymously buy a gun without checks.

I wouldn't say the current system is "too restrictive", but it is dangerous.  I don't like the government having lists of which citizen has guns and which one doesn't.  To me, this is like the government keeping track of what religion people are or their sexual orientation.


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22679571 -

Quote:
I wouldn't say the current system is "too restrictive", but it is dangerous.  I don't like the government having lists of which citizen has guns and which one doesn't.  To me, this is like the government keeping track of what religion people are or their sexual orientation.


 
  I would agree with u if people could kill people with dirty gay sex thoughts . I don't see how it's the same at all .  All my guns are registered . Why is this a danger to me ?


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My 3 year old cyan patchhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17135850

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20937710


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22679589 -

Enlil said:
I can see a real benefit to educating the public on the reality of gun ownership and the use of a gun for self-defense. 


The education that is needed is that if you own a gun for self defense, that gun is at least four times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting than it is to be used in self defense.

I'm not against guns; I even own one.  But I'm ok with regulations that make the public a little safer from gun violence, just like I'm ok with regulations that make the public a little safer from car accidents.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22679690 -

some interesting answers!

I agree that even the existance of those terrorist lists are pretty dodgey in the first place. some people are on the list for just arguing on a plane or who knows what. 

i wasnt suggesting that gun manufacturers should have to be responsibile, just that safety features could be explored more. can't be a harm in that.

in switzerland i believe people have to lock up their guns, that would be something. i realise enforcement would be pretty much nonexistant except retrospectively if something happened.
ive been told by my gun instructor friend that you are still held responsible if you sell a gun to someone who commits a crime with it but that in reality there arent usually consequences

i see your point about the list of those with guns but it would help prevent the black market gun trade.

is it more dangerous that there is a list of registered guns with current owners or that  thousands die stupidly from not even knowing to handle guns or from selling them off the radar to be used for criminal purposes?

i think its reasonable for there to be checks when buying, whether person to person or at a dealer.

as i've said before, i find the idea of the right to bear arms a very interesting concept as a defence against tyranny, i just think its not treated like that. I have a gun in my home too and someone i know has a whole arsenal in their basement and they never lock their house, or the area where the guns are kept.

do you think there should be restrictions for the mentally ill? or for those with relevant criminal records?

like falc says, accidents are more likely than actual self defense applications. Nationwide standardised thorough education and training does seem reasonable for proper conduct of citizens with legal guns.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #22679703 -

Enlil said:
Education is far more effective than regulation, of course, and doesn't run afoul of the 2nd amendment.  Education has succeeding in reducing addiction to nicotine.  How effective has regulation been in reducing addiction to heroin? 

If we want to reduce gun violence, the answer is education, not regulation.


The 2nd Amendment includes the words "well regulated", so regulation doesn't seem to run afoul of the 2nd amendment.  People tend to ignore the 2nd Amendment's prefatory clause.

Yes, I understand it's referring to "a well regulated militia", but I'm not so sure that we even have such a thing today, but since that's the reason for the second amendment, I assume that all gun owners are part of this so called militia.  :shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22679765 -

I believe it's all ablebodied men ages 16-45 are in the militia. You have a choice if you want to identify yourself as a militia member or not. Usually the case is most men don't know they are in the militia.


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Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Shiithead]
    #22679816 -

if government regulations do not impinge on the rights of the people, then it can be done so legally.

no one wants to take anyone's various and many guns away...people just want to prevent too much guns from getting into too many of the wrong people's hands, so we don't have militia warfare on the streets to battle crazy psychopathic gun owners trying to shoot up shopping centers...which is not what the militia is supposed to be for, not necessarily...i mean, it could...it should...but it's mostly supposed to be against the practices of a tyrannical government...which by the by, you guys still haven't the credence to stand by. :shrug:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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