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Anonymous

GUNS
    #1353923 - 03/06/03 06:39 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

there are debates in here all the time about gun-related topics. they've often missed the point or gotten onto a debate about the meaning of the second amendment, etc. second amendment aside, let us debate this issue on more philosophical terms than legal ones. should civilian adults (in any nation) be permitted to own weapons? should there be restrictions? what should those restrictions be?

i say that yes, adult civilians who have not commited violent crimes should be permitted to own weapons. on this point, i think we would all agree. i think all of us also agree that there should also be restrictions. the difference is where we would set the restrictions. some here would probably restrict "weapons" to meaning only edged weapons, peppers spray, and blunt objects. some would say no handguns. some no assault rifles.

i myself think that restrictions on the weapons people may own should be very, very relaxed. i think i, as a peaceful citizen, have a right to own an assault rifle. at the same time, i also have a right to be secure in knowing that my neighbor does not have an atom bomb (or vial of anthrax, or ton of TNT).

i think the deciding factor in whether or not a weapon should be legal or not is how much damage a willing person could easily cause with it before being stopped. no one should be allowed to own "weapons of mass destruction", or even large amounts of explosives. but most, if not all, firearms should be legal.


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: ]
    #1353957 - 03/06/03 06:48 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

We're in agreement, kind of. However, rather than go with your limitations on weapons based on how much damage can be done with them, I'll propose a different solution:

Ban all weapons that do not require direct action to set off. I will clarify this. Guns require a person to pull the trigger. All guns from assault rifles and machine guns to muzzle loading rifles have this characteristic.
Barring what you might have seen in movies, it is impossible or next to impossible to set up such weapons to be automatically triggered and take out mass amounts of people while you're 1000 miles away.
That said, objects such as explosives, biological and chemical weapons, and automatic turrets (if they exist) should be either illegal or heavily restricted.
I hope I've made this clear. Basically it means if you want to use a legal weapon, it must be a weapon which requires you to be present as well.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GUNS [Re: ]
    #1353979 - 03/06/03 06:52 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I believe people should have to get a license to own any firearm, just like you have to have a license to drive, because I believe that, like driving, gun ownership should be a privilege, not a right. You would have to pass a gun safety test and a background check in order to get the license. There should also be specialized licenses you'd have to get to own more dangerous firearms, such as assault rifles and fully automatic guns.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1353982 - 03/06/03 06:53 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

?This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!? - Adolph Hitler, April 15, 1935


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GUNS [Re: Anonymous]
    #1353985 - 03/06/03 06:54 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Getting a license to own a gun isn't the same thing as registration.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354002 - 03/06/03 07:07 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

actually, it effectively is.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: GUNS [Re: Anonymous]
    #1354038 - 03/06/03 07:23 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

stonedfish writes:

Ban all weapons that do not require direct action to set off. I will clarify this. Guns require a person to pull the trigger. All guns from assault rifles and machine guns to muzzle loading rifles have this characteristic.

There is another characteristic that must be considered -- selectiveness. Firearms target selectively. Bombs, nerve gas, nukes, anthrax etc. by their nature cannot reliably be targeted selectively.

The ethical justification for individual ownership of weaponry can only be for hunting and for self-defense. In order to defend one's SELF (and family), one must be able to disable an attacker or a few attackers. If the group attacking you is too large to hold off with an assault rifle, you are no longer in a self-defence situation, you are in a WAR situation, and that's what the military is for.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354144 - 03/06/03 08:13 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Getting a license to own a gun isn't the same thing as registration



Explain this please...hiter-esque


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Offlinejoe666
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Re: GUNS [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1354254 - 03/06/03 08:47 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

registration is bullshit -- the goverment has no right to know if you own guns.
it is your RIGHT.

the feds have fucked me.
they already have my prints and know I have a conceald weapon permit.
it's a catch 22-- carry the gun legally--have to get a license and submit prints to local and state law and to the feds


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"A politician is like a baby's diaper, it should be changed often and for the same reason"-Coy Turner Sr.

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Re: GUNS [Re: joe666]
    #1354282 - 03/06/03 08:57 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the goverment has no right to know if you own guns.it is your RIGHT



Unfortunatly there are many here that find individual rights to be subjective.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354298 - 03/06/03 09:04 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

this doesn't have much to do with your post... i'd like to point out that even if every single manufactured gun could be eliminated from the land, criminals could still aquire deadly projectile weapons. a crude yet deadly shotgun can be made with a few dollars worth of pipes and a couple other items from a hardware store. during the wars in southeast and southwest asia, local artisans were able to produce, from scratch, workable copies of AK-47s and other weapons in backyard foundries. hell... people have made crude but effective guns in prison before. a gun is just a mechanical device... and it can be a rather simple on at that. it's a tube with an opening at one end and and an explosive charge and projectile at the other. it could be even more simple than that. i'm sure we've all heard of someone making a gun that shoots potatoes via hairspray or compressed air. hell... a paintball gun would require very little, if any modification to become a deadly weapon... we all know that a nasty little firebomb can be made with items as easily attainable as a little gasoline, a glass bottle, and a rag. i wonder if anyone has ever thought of using one of those water balloon slingshots to throw molotov cocktails? people can very easily make rather deadly weapons from readily available materials. the only thing gun "control" does is make it harder for regular folks to defend themselves.

and that's presuming that all of the guns in america could be eliminated in the first place. gun control would work about as well, and have the same (but probably more severe), problems associated with drug control. (and even if it could work, i sure as hell wouldn't want the government to be the only ones with the guns). we can and should prevent any random joe from getting his hands on a ton of high explosive or a heavy artillery piece, but gun control? come on... people are going to be able to get (or make) weapons no matter what.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GUNS [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1354306 - 03/06/03 09:07 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Getting a license to own a gun isn't the same thing as registration



Explain this please...hiter-esque 



Well, go to the DMV, and ask them what the difference is between getting your driver's licence and registering a vehicle.

Edit:  Oh ya, and that's really mature of you comparing me to Hitler.  :smirk:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (03/06/03 09:08 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354336 - 03/06/03 09:19 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

you don't register the gun, you register as a gun owner... that's what you're talking about with licensing... you do see the blatant flaw in trying to say that there is a difference between having to register a gun you own and registering yourself as a gun owner, right?

either way... the effect is the same... the government knows you've got a gun. registration has to happen for disarmament to happen... they get everyone to register, or get a license... everyone says, "oh, that's ok.. no big deal, at least i can still own a gun"... and then a few years down the line, they know exactly who to come for when they want to disarm the populace. fuck that. when i buy a gun, it's gonna be from my boy jose on the corner, and uncle sam ain't gonna know about it. that brings up another point... do you think criminals will obey this licensing rule?

i agree with what you're saying. people should have training in and respect for firearms before they can buy them, but you gotta be realistic... if the government forces people to get a license to have a gun... it's just another big brother tactic.

you have a license not to operate a car, but to use the road. the government built that road (albeit with our money). guns are a little different.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354344 - 03/06/03 09:22 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well, go to the DMV, and ask them what the difference is between getting your driver's licence and registering a vehicle.



not the same thing.

Quote:

Edit: Oh ya, and that's really mature of you comparing me to Hitler.



quit yer whining, i was saying that gun registration is hiter-esque, jesus are all people these days sooo sensative?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GUNS [Re: ]
    #1354392 - 03/06/03 09:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Alright then. How 'bout instead of a license, you just have to have a certification card, like how you have to have a First Aid certification card to perform First Aid on someone. That way you just show the card when you buy a gun, and they won't track you. They'll just know that you know about gun safety.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354428 - 03/06/03 09:54 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

so it would be anonymous? and when i went to the class to get it, would the class be anonymous? could i pay cash?

what would keep someone from lending their card to other people? or just going to the class repeatedly, getting the cards, and selling them to people?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GUNS [Re: ]
    #1354438 - 03/06/03 09:57 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

so it would be anonymous? and when i went to the class to get it, would the class be anonymous? could i pay cash?



Dude, you're being WAY too paranoid. And yes, you could pay cash.
Quote:

what would keep someone from lending their card to other people? or just going to the class repeatedly, getting the cards, and selling them to people?



It would have your name on the card. You would have to sign it. Of course people would find loopholes, but this is more about gun safety than about keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (03/06/03 09:58 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354458 - 03/06/03 10:05 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

then it wouldn't be anonymous, and hence, it would accomplish the same thing as registration...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: GUNS [Re: ]
    #1354485 - 03/06/03 10:15 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Look, it wouldn't be registering you as a gun owner. It would only certify that you know how to operate a gun safely. Can't you see the difference? A person who gets certified wouldn't necessarily own a gun, but if they wanted to, they could. It's not like it would have a tracking device on it or anything. Damn, you people are paranoid...


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Anonymous

Re: GUNS [Re: silversoul7]
    #1354518 - 03/06/03 10:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

alright... i can see how you might think it's paranoid. i just don't think it's the governments business to know if i own a gun. i don't think they should. in trying to provide an anonymous system for mandatory gun education for those who wish to purchase guns, you don't seem to have a problem with that.

i too think that gun education should be mandatory for those who wish to own guns... hell, if not just for safe use... if you're gonna buy a gun, it'd be good to know how to actually USE it effectively in a tactical situation... i know i'd take a course if i bought a gun...

and i've thought about it before... if it would be possible for such education to be mandatory, yet anonymous, and i just don't think it is. i've thought about the same ideas as yours before, but they just aren't anonymous. the Man would still know you've got a gun... and come on... who's gonna pay a few hundred dollars for a course if they don't plan on buying a gun? it's a good idea... but it lets them know you've got a gun.... and i just don't think that's something they should know.

i don't disagree with you 100%... having such a license wouldn't nessecarily mean that you do own a gun... if my paranoid vision ever did come to pass, and they went after "license holders" asking them for their guns... they could very well just say they don't have any. it's sure alot better than having to register the gun itself. not a bad idea... but it's a restriction, and a pointless one at that. law-abiding citizens would be forced to spend time and money, and give their name to the government, to be able to buy protection for themselves. i don't think that's right. what about poor folk who live in shitty neighborhoods who can barely afford a much-needed firearm to protect themself? should they have to pay for a few hundred dollars for a course? and on top of that, this wouldn't effect criminals who buy guns on the black market anyway.

most people who buy guns have been taught by someone how to use them anyway. my dad taught me how to use and care for a gun, and i'm sure it's like that with alot of folks who want to buy guns. i shouldn't be required by law to pay for a course which i don't want to take which won't teach me anything, and nor should anyone else.

what sorts of things do you think they should teach in these courses?


Edited by Anonymous (03/06/03 10:33 AM)


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