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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22666615 - 12/17/15 07:26 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the universe is so hostile.




Quote:

Credulous at best, your desire to believe in angels in the hearts of men.
Pull your head on out your hippy haze and give a listen.
Shouldn't have to say it all again.
The universe is hostile. so Impersonal. devour to survive.
So it is. So it's always been.




Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Heheh the left wing liberals have the uncanny ability to "debunk" everything without reading any articles, but citing some left wing blog shithole that says otherwise.





Obviously you've never bothered reading a reading a Politifact article.  If you did, you'd realize it's not an opinion based site, and doesn't lean liberal or conservative.  They simply research whether a claim is true or not, and they share that research with their readers.  If you see a problem with their research, then you should point it out.  But simply crying like a baby because you hate the results of fact based research doesn't make you look smart.




Heh, where did I specify which blog was false? Yes if you think you see a problem with some research then why don't you point it out? Because you're not good at debate, poor guy.




correct, instead of refuting the assertions, providing evidence of the contrary, they just say "thats not true", providing no actual evidence to back it up, this is how the left operates, they silence dissent in whatever way they can, facts don't matter


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22667827 - 12/17/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
instead of refuting the assertions, providing evidence of the contrary, they just say "thats not true", providing no actual evidence to back it up, this is how the left operates, they silence dissent in whatever way they can, facts don't matter



I guess you didn't bother reading the Politifact article either.  :shake:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22668510 - 12/17/15 05:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
instead of refuting the assertions, providing evidence of the contrary, they just say "thats not true", providing no actual evidence to back it up, this is how the left operates, they silence dissent in whatever way they can, facts don't matter



I guess you didn't bother reading the Politifact article either.  :shake:




"politifact" just like "the affordable care act" notice the words "fact" and "affordable" libs put these words in the names and think it fools people, well it does, but only liberals robots, not anyone with a brain, sorry charlie, your liberal sources are NOT valid


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InvisibleLing Ling
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22669393 - 12/17/15 08:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I must say there's a time and place for each parties general ideologies. In Canada we are currently about to demonstrate why Liberals don't belong belong in parliament at this time of economic crisis. The American elections have me on the edge of my seat right now. I actually think the whole world is on the edge of something it's big advancement in technology. Lots of elections going on at the same time, the economy collapses, and conveniently just as the world is falling into a war of sorts. (Possibly the most largely dispersed, and completely worldwide war the human race will have ever seen?)


--------------------
If any fellow Shroomers have watched the YouTube video "a planned trespass against the mind of man" and are going to pursue your right to live as a man... Or live in Canada under the legal sense of a man (freeman equivalent in the U.S)
Please pm me!!




Normality is a product of perception!


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22669442 - 12/17/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:


"politifact" just like "the affordable care act" notice the words "fact" and "affordable" libs put these words in the names and think it fools people, well it does, but only liberals robots, not anyone with a brain, sorry charlie, your liberal sources are NOT valid





yes, i totally believe you Stickman.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Ling Ling] * 1
    #22675073 - 12/19/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomster14415 said:
Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Police arrested a 22-year-old Medford man who accidentally discharged a revolver into his hand at a 7-Eleven at Crater Lake Avenue and McAndrews Road on Saturday night while attempting to show it to a store clerk, who narrowly missed being struck by the bullet.
http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20151018/NEWS/151019621


SANDY, Utah (ABC 4 Utah) - A scary moment inside a Sandy restaurant when a man paying for his food drops a bag and a gun goes off.

It happened just before 1:30 Wednesday afternoon at the Chipotle near 104th South State Street.

Sandy Police say the man removed his backpack to pay for his meal and accidentally dropped it.

When the bag hit the floor, the handgun he had inside accidentally discharged. 
http://www.good4utah.com/news/local-wasatch-front-/a-gun-is-accidentally-discharged-inside-a-chipotle-in-sandy-gun-owner-not-cited








There needs to be education and proper handling taught to everyone who buys one  these incidents both involved ACCIDENTAL discharge. Not intent to kill. If they were using proper storage carrying and handling techniques this never would have happened. Don't fear the gun, fear the lack of knowledge the holder possesses




Yeah, but who is qualify to train? If the qualified isn't perfect, then how many accidental shooting that there will be when everyone has the right to carry.



Bessemer Police Chief Accidentally Killed While Cleaning Gun http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2015/09/13/bessemer-police-chief-accidentally-killed-while-cleaning-gun/


Dec. 18, 2012, in Durham, North Carolina, police officer Kelly Stewart pulled over Carlos Antonio Riley for a routine traffic stop. What happened next is a matter of intense dispute. Riley, who is black, says the officer racially profiled him then attacked him. Stewart, who is also black, says Riley engaged him in a violent, physical struggle. The encounter ended when Stewart accidentally shot himself in the leg with his firearm. Soon after, the police department logged the gun’s discharge: “1 shot fired by officer.”  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/08/cop_shot_himself_and_blamed_a_black_driver_police_officer_kelly_stewart.html

Tulsa reserve deputy who fatally mistook gun for a Taser turns himself in  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/13/the-73-year-old-reserve-cop-who-mistook-his-gun-for-a-taser/


Officer accidentally shoots himself

A Phoenix police officer has minor injuries after his gun accidentally discharged, according to police.

The incident happened around 3 a.m. Friday near 47th Avenue and Union Hills. Police said an off-duty officer was helping a neighbor who was having car trouble when the officer's gun went off.

The bullet hit the street. It is unclear whether it grazed or hit the officer as well, but he has minor injuries, a department spokesperson said.  http://www.12news.com/story/news/local/valley/2015/08/14/officer-accidentally-shoots-himself/31713577/

Bystander dies after being shot by NY undercover cop when gun buy goes bad

nnocent bystander accidentally shot by a plainclothes officer died early Saturday, hours after being wounded when the officer opened fire on an armed suspect during an undercover gun buy that went bad, New York City police said.  http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-ny-bystander-killed-police-20150829-story.html

Ocala police officer dies after accidental shooting at firearms training  http://www.wesh.com/news/ocala-police-officer-in-critical-condition-after-accidental-shooting-at-firearms-training/32217774


And the list goes on and on.......


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OfflineTipote
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #22675426 - 12/19/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I do understand why the right to bear arms theoretically protects from tyrany to an extent, its a very interesting concept in political theory. In reality today, just having a gun doesnt mean shit if you don't have the strict training and education in other areas too as well as organisation between people to keep the government to account coupled with the awareness that mental illness and guns don't mix.

absolutely education is significant part of it - douglas makes some excellent points about those "trained" already. it doesnt inspire alot of confidence.

Most people that have guns don't even need to go through a fraction of this training. although there are a few hours training for concealed carry, its still fuck all.

and being able to sell annonymously with no paperwork or checks means people can get guns without any training at all.

I've been offered a gun and i do know how to shoot one but i havent been trained at all. Even when i was getting my hair cut at the barbers, the guy was saying.. yeeh i'd like to get a gun. "why?" i said. "ohh i dunno, thought it'd be cool you know"..........................

also, i don't want to go into the details but my brother was an elite French Foreign Legionnaire and was killed because of the stupid American obsession with guns.

serious education and serious regulation is needed.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22675438 - 12/19/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I just don't see it as an issue.  There are things far more deadly than guns that people can buy without any checks at all.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22675618 - 12/19/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I just don't see it as an issue.  There are things far more deadly than guns that people can buy without any checks at all.




you dont see it as an issue?

yes there are more deadly things - like all the illnesses that kill people from a terrible healthcare system, poor food standards etc but its certainly way up there. It is directly linked with terrorism and crime in general.

the issue of healthcare and specifically mental health comes in here as a large proportion of gun deaths are suicides

what things are you referring to?

where there are guns, there are more homicides


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22675654 - 12/19/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Homicide is a very small percentage of deaths, however.  More people overdose on drugs.  Maybe we should regulate those more...that seems to be effective.

As far as suicide, I'd rather guns be available for suicides because they're generally more effective at getting the job done.

A shitload of people die in auto accidents...maybe we need to restrict vehicle ownership even more.

Household falls account for a good deal of deaths, too.  Of course, heart disease is the king of mortality.  Maybe we need to ban fatty foods.

The bottom line is that it isn't the government's place to protect us from danger in the world.  If the government wants to educate, that's fine, but limiting people's freedom for protection is a bad idea.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22675916 - 12/19/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Homicide is a very small percentage of deaths, however.  More people overdose on drugs.  Maybe we should regulate those more...that seems to be effective.

As far as suicide, I'd rather guns be available for suicides because they're generally more effective at getting the job done.

A shitload of people die in auto accidents...maybe we need to restrict vehicle ownership even more.

Household falls account for a good deal of deaths, too.  Of course, heart disease is the king of mortality.  Maybe we need to ban fatty foods.

The bottom line is that it isn't the government's place to protect us from danger in the world.  If the government wants to educate, that's fine, but limiting people's freedom for protection is a bad idea.





Well absolutely there are many things killing Americans. together they all add up. Why not tackle all of them at least in small ways?

Drugs for example - why not have them regulated? There have been very interesting results in Portugal. I assume you were being sarcastic saying that it "seems to be effective".. but we don't regulate them in america, we ban them.

I understand the difficulty in just straight banning guns in america. the conflict with the constitution is huge. But i don't think the right the bear arms should mean machine guns, 50-caliber rifles etc.  the constitution doesnt specify, does it? there should be some regulation and restrictions for those people with mental illness or terrorist activities. mental illness doesnt necessarily mean people are just going to kill themselves and use the effective tool of a gun, they may also be intent instead on killing other people or to die in the process of hurting others. Fine if people want a gun but why not be trained in very specific ways.

about cars... i would certainly incentivise a move away from every family having stupid numbers of cars. supporting public transport links etc. they are harmful for many reasons such as climate change, and there are many dangerous drivers around who shouldnt have a license. To pass the test in America is pretty easy compared to the UK.



Quote:

ACCORDING to data gathered by the Centres for Disease Control (CDC), deaths caused by cars in America are in long-term decline. Improved technology, tougher laws and less driving by young people have all led to safer streets and highways. Deaths by guns, though—the great majority suicides, accidents or domestic violence—have been trending slightly upwards. This year, if the trend continues, they will overtake deaths on the roads.




Quote:

Car technologies and road laws are ever-evolving: in 2014, for example, the National Highways Traffic Safety Administration announced its plan to phase in mandatory rear-view cameras on new light vehicles, while New York City lowered its speed limit for local roads. By contrast, safety features on firearms—such as smartguns unlocked by an owner’s thumbprint or a radio-frequency encryption—are opposed by the National Rifle Association, whose allies in Congress also block funding for the sort of public-health research that might show, in even clearer detail, the cost of America’s love affair with guns. from here - A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22676045 - 12/19/15 02:45 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Why not tackle all of them at least in small ways?



I'm arguing that the best way is education.  Reducing freedom is the worst way.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22676058 - 12/19/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Tipote said:
Why not tackle all of them at least in small ways?



I'm arguing that the best way is education.  Reducing freedom is the worst way.





well there are many means of regulation that wouldnt reduce freedom.

i agree education is very important, education on guns needs to be regulated so there is a standard minimum level.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22676088 - 12/19/15 02:58 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

No, there aren't.  All regulation reduces freedom.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22676124 - 12/19/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No, there aren't.  All regulation reduces freedom.




what about safety features on guns like i mentioned above?

or

basic record keeping of sales and/or locations of weapons

or

even the basic quick background checks that they do at gun dealerships to be the norm between selling from person to person?

or

regulation of education in order to secure a minimum standard nationwide?



are their predefined parameters of what arms people can bear?

what about AA guns? 50-caliber? Tanks? armor-piercing ammo?

Are guns on planes ok?

Liberty requires some levels of restraint in order to preserve others' liberty.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22676318 - 12/19/15 04:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

All of those limit freedom, though.  I don't see any reason to limit freedom any more than it already has been limited.

This is why I am not a liberal and I am not a conservatives.  Both want to limit freedom...they just can't agree on what freedoms should be limited.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22676337 - 12/19/15 04:21 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of those limit freedom, though.  I don't see any reason to limit freedom any more than it already has been limited.

This is why I am not a liberal and I am not a conservatives.  Both want to limit freedom...they just can't agree on what freedoms should be limited.




would you put yourself in another box then?

i think my point is that these restrictions would mean that others freedom to live isnt violated.

but youve said yourself that you think education is more important. so what if education is regulated so that it meets a standard. i would have thought that would be a point of agreement between us?

safety features on weapons surely doesnt stop people using them as such but reduces the chance for accidents to happen. unless we want freedom to have potentially fatal accidents.

having records of registered guns at least would help restrict the illegal gun trade. not a whole lot but its something.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22676345 - 12/19/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Locking someone in a cage for the rest of his life still leaves him with the "freedom to live."  That's hardly freedom, though.

By education, I was talking about government spending on educating the public through advertisement campaigns.  Yes, that limits freedom too, but it spreads the burden wide enough where the limitation is almost imperceptible to each citizen.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Enlil]
    #22676416 - 12/19/15 04:50 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Locking someone in a cage for the rest of his life still leaves him with the "freedom to live."  That's hardly freedom, though.




absolutely i agree! but thats quite a jump from gun safety training and safety mechanisms on guns to living in a cage for the rest of your life.

Quote:

By education, I was talking about government spending on educating the public through advertisement campaigns.  Yes, that limits freedom too, but it spreads the burden wide enough where the limitation is almost imperceptible to each citizen.




Then all activities hinder freedom in any degree. so regulating the education to standardise it seems like a reasonable addition to that. Otherwise, the burden is not evenly spread.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
    #22676424 - 12/19/15 04:52 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Nah, regulating education isn't going to work.  High school is not the place to be learning about guns.  Gun education should take forms that reach adults, not children.


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