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hostileuniverse
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
#22629825 - 12/08/15 12:36 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Tipote said:
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hostileuniverse said:
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well that doesnt make much sense, straw man. you always go to extremes. it seems more reasonable to have the secret service and police armed than just every citizen that wants one.. to sell off the radar. at least when security officiers have weapons they have to account for every bullet.
so you are in favor of the rich and powerful having protection but not the middle class? the middle class cannot afford armed security to follow them around, did you know that? and sheriffs across the country have been calling for citizens to arm themselves for self protection, because even they know YOU are your first line of defense!
http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/30673648/sheriff-joe-arpaio-calls-on-citizens-to-carry-guns
http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/12/7/brevard_sheriff_video_arm_selves_against_terror.html
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/liberal-sheriff-encourages-citizens-to-carry-guns-after-mass-shooting_122015
i always wonder time after time whether you even read your own links or just find something that agrees with you, read the first 3.5 sentences and then post it.
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"All this stuff is happening. Why not arm a few good people?" said Curtis Edwards, of Cocoa. "I've been in the military; that's scary. This is even scarier, because you figure you're around family, friends, Americans you don't even know."
But not everyone in Brevard County agrees with the sheriff, or believes the answer is that simple.
"I'm not sure that just because somebody else has a gun that they will really be that effective," said William Gary, president of the NAACP's North Brevard County Branch. "I don't think there's been any study that shows that if you had a number of persons within any grouping who had weapons, that they would have been able to deter assailant."
who is good? will there be a test for if you are good? is full training compulsory? what kind of training would this be? I have a gun right here and my dad did not HAVE to go through the training that he did, it also happens that my dad is exmilitary.. but i know for sure if my dad even attempted to fight back, he is more likely to die being a 70 year old man with poor sight and only 12 bullets in a clip and one in the chamber. He only got a gun because he falls for this culture of fear bs. Mass shootings where people have bullet proof vests, assault rifles and the element of surprise, are gna easily deal with a few people with pistols.
your article says itself that its not really conclusive in anyway that its going to be effective - that the best choice is to run away or hide. I also made the point to you before that too many people with guns might just confuse the situation for the authorities arriving, promote vigilantism, and extrajudicial execution.
are muslims allowed to carry guns? what if they grow those beards you are terrified of? black people? just white people?
i saw one of those gun rights experiments where a white guy carrying an assault rifle in public got the police called out on him who were polite to him and asked why he had it and advised him not to etc etc. the same experiment was done with a black guy with an assault rifle, they got his ass on the ground shouting like mad men at him and threatened to shoot on the spot. if you think that prejudice isn't going to play a part in arming anyone who can get a gun then you are mistaken.
after everything, you keep missing the point that the fear that everyone has guns and could kill us so we need to all have guns is just a circular argument that fuels the problem. You ignore the issue that more guns in circulation means its more likely for the "bad evil" people to get guns. At least if its illegal its harder.
In the UK, i never live in fear that someone is going to pull out a gun, you know why? well because they are illegal. there is a difference between being vigilant for paris attacks and living in fear everyday clinging to your gun. Even the police in the recent knife attack in the London underground didnt have guns and they still got him - alive.
Well whoop Dee do for all your nonsense, fact is, when armed intruders storm your place of business or gathering for whatever reason, without guns, you're just a sitting duck. I get it, you think only the rich and powerful should be protected. I disagree, I think everyone deserves a fighting chance from slaughter.
The president doesn't need guns to protect him anyway, look at jfk, Reagan, Garfield, they all had secret service protection and it didn't save them from being shot. Now I say again, when Obama gives up his personal protection, I'll give up mine. Until then, fuck off with your fascist gun confiscating ideas
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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2nd amendment = asshole protection
1st amendment = mouth protection
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Douglas Howard
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hostileuniverse said:
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well that doesnt make much sense, straw man. you always go to extremes. it seems more reasonable to have the secret service and police armed than just every citizen that wants one.. to sell off the radar. at least when security officiers have weapons they have to account for every bullet.
so you are in favor of the rich and powerful having protection but not the middle class? the middle class cannot afford armed security to follow them around, did you know that? and sheriffs across the country have been calling for citizens to arm themselves for self protection, because even they know YOU are your first line of defense!
http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/30673648/sheriff-joe-arpaio-calls-on-citizens-to-carry-guns
http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/12/7/brevard_sheriff_video_arm_selves_against_terror.html
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/liberal-sheriff-encourages-citizens-to-carry-guns-after-mass-shooting_122015
Remember, they feed the world.....
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



Registered: 10/28/11
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
I get it, you think only the rich and powerful should be protected. I disagree, I think everyone deserves a fighting chance from slaughter.
haha, please just change your avatar and be done with it..
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
#22631230 - 12/08/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Registered: 05/14/15
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Quote:
Tipote said:
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hostileuniverse said:
I get it, you think only the rich and powerful should be protected. I disagree, I think everyone deserves a fighting chance from slaughter.
haha, please just change your avatar and be done with it..

Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:


REPORTED FOR HARRASMENT
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Sade
Cheatin bastered



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Yep gun control has been a great help. Eureka is one of the fastest developing crime area in America. Just had a cop killed and an old woman within two weeks.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Sade]
#22631623 - 12/08/15 08:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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VENEZUELA BANNED GUNS, THEY NOW HAVE THE HIGHEST MURDER RATE IN SA, BS WANTS US TO BE LIKE THEM
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Sade]
#22631626 - 12/08/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sade said: Yep gun control has been a great help. Eureka is one of the fastest developing crime area in America. Just had a cop killed and an old woman within two weeks.
is it likely that the old woman would be alive if she was armed? arent cops armed?
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Sade]
#22631636 - 12/08/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sade said: Yep gun control has been a great help. Eureka is one of the fastest developing crime area in America. Just had a cop killed and an old woman within two weeks.
Looks more like a mixed bag.
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Sade
Cheatin bastered



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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote] 1
#22631759 - 12/08/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tipote said:
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Sade said: Yep gun control has been a great help. Eureka is one of the fastest developing crime area in America. Just had a cop killed and an old woman within two weeks.
is it likely that the old woman would be alive if she was armed? arent cops armed?
No it would not because chances are the robber already has a gun pulled. The she would have to stick her hand in her purse or behind her back because she tucks her gun in her pants. Why the fuck is everyone's response to the threads "well if they had a gun what if?" Makes no fucking sense. So everyone is just going to pull their guns out on the street and start shooting? Oh I heard this one before. They evaluate THE situation beforehand, read their mind, and prevent the giant gunfight. I love this forum but when it comes to gun laws on a drug forum...... yea.
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Sade]
#22631789 - 12/08/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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hostileuniverse said: VENEZUELA BANNED GUNS, THEY NOW HAVE THE HIGHEST MURDER RATE IN SA, BS WANTS US TO BE LIKE THEM
is your keyboard locked in CAPSLOCK now?
are you going to show how this is directly because of gun control?
Venezuela has alot of corruption in the police and very low prosecution rates (8%) so that might suggest that people think they can get away with it easily.. especially if the cops are in on it. In the US, people are always caught after these mass shootings or the die by cop.
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Venezuela’s spiralling crime problem has a number of underlying causes: they include easy access to illegal weapons, a corrupt and overstretched judicial system, poorly trained and ill-equipped police, and the most violent prison system in the region. But most experts agree that sheer impunity is at the heart of it. More than 90% of murders go unpunished, and in the vast majority of cases the police make no arrests and cases languish uninvestigated. Only when a prominent individual like Ms Spear is the victim do the authorities vigorously commit resources to pursuing the murderers.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2014/01/violence-venezuela
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Sade said:
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Tipote said:
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Sade said: Yep gun control has been a great help. Eureka is one of the fastest developing crime area in America. Just had a cop killed and an old woman within two weeks.
is it likely that the old woman would be alive if she was armed? arent cops armed?
No it would not because chances are the robber already has a gun pulled. The she would have to stick her hand in her purse or behind her back because she tucks her gun in her pants. Why the fuck is everyone's response to the threads "well if they had a gun what if?" Makes no fucking sense. So everyone is just going to pull their guns out on the street and start shooting? Oh I heard this one before. They evaluate THE situation beforehand, read their mind, and prevent the giant gunfight. I love this forum but when it comes to gun laws on a drug forum...... yea.
i am agreeing with you then, i dont think it would make any fucking difference if she had a gun. I am against all this gun nonsense. I thought you were being sarcastic that it was a help to have gun control because you had shootings. sorry if i misunderstood!
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Sade]
#22631796 - 12/08/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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i was making the point that even though the cop was armed, it didnt seem to do much..
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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hostileuniverse said: VENEZUELA BANNED GUNS, THEY NOW HAVE THE HIGHEST MURDER RATE IN SA, BS WANTS US TO BE LIKE THEM
First of all, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, Bernie does NOT want to be like Venezuela. Please stop the straw man arguments.
Secondly, you are the one who said you were against cherry picking. What about Bogota, Columbia? How'd they do after they banned guns? Why cherry pick Venezuela?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
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Bogota 2013 16.7 homicides per 100K, 2014 17.4 homicides per 100K... 95% of all homicides committed with illegal firearms.
What about Bogota?
Wyoming, gun ownership rate: 60%, homicide rate 2 per 100K Washington DC, gun ownership rate: 3%, homicide rate 15.8 per 100K
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Rahz]
#22632504 - 12/08/15 11:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Rahz said: Bogota 2013 16.7 homicides per 100K, 2014 17.4 homicides per 100K... 95% of all homicides committed with illegal firearms.
What about Bogota?
Wyoming, gun ownership rate: 60%, homicide rate 2 per 100K Washington DC, gun ownership rate: 3%, homicide rate 15.8 per 100K
is there any evidence of causation or ....?
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,227
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
#22632759 - 12/09/15 01:31 AM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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I could suggest that the homicide rate drop coincides with the breakup of the Medellín Cartel in the mid 90's. You could counter by suggesting it has to do with the Comunidad Segur and while that may play a part it's unclear how gun control plays into that program. At any rate, their current homicide rate is still currently over 400% that of the US (and going up apparently), and Columbia as a whole almost 800% that of the US and 1500% that of Wyoming where gun ownership is 60%...
Not to strawman anyone's general argument, just something I'd like to point out, European countries generally have low homicide rates but if you check gun ownership there's no direct correlation. It's not illegal to own guns in many Euro countries and some of them have high rates of gun ownership. Switzerland for instance is in the top 4 countries by gun ownership and also has a homicide rate less than 1 per 100K.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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hostileuniverse
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Rahz]
#22632950 - 12/09/15 05:43 AM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Rahz said: Bogota 2013 16.7 homicides per 100K, 2014 17.4 homicides per 100K... 95% of all homicides committed with illegal firearms.
What about Bogota?
Wyoming, gun ownership rate: 60%, homicide rate 2 per 100K Washington DC, gun ownership rate: 3%, homicide rate 15.8 per 100K
Quote:
Rahz said: I could suggest that the homicide rate drop coincides with the breakup of the Medellín Cartel in the mid 90's. You could counter by suggesting it has to do with the Comunidad Segur and while that may play a part it's unclear how gun control plays into that program. At any rate, their current homicide rate is still currently over 400% that of the US (and going up apparently), and Columbia as a whole almost 800% that of the US and 1500% that of Wyoming where gun ownership is 60%...
Not to strawman anyone's general argument, just something I'd like to point out, European countries generally have low homicide rates but if you check gun ownership there's no direct correlation. It's not illegal to own guns in many Euro countries and some of them have high rates of gun ownership. Switzerland for instance is in the top 4 countries by gun ownership and also has a homicide rate less than 1 per 100K.
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Rahz]
#22633785 - 12/09/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Rahz said: I could suggest that the homicide rate drop coincides with the breakup of the Medellín Cartel in the mid 90's. You could counter by suggesting it has to do with the Comunidad Segur and while that may play a part it's unclear how gun control plays into that program. At any rate, their current homicide rate is still currently over 400% that of the US (and going up apparently), and Columbia as a whole almost 800% that of the US and 1500% that of Wyoming where gun ownership is 60%...
a good argument. personally i would appreciate some sources.
first of all, it is not a complete ban, it is a ban of guns in the street.
second of all, as with some of the other countries mentioned as examples of who gun control doesnt work - these countries have endemic corruption problems in law enforcement. colombia's most violent city is one of deep poverty, with extortion gangs, paramilitary groups. in fact the meddlin cartel was brought down with the combined use of government, US assistance, cartel and paramilitary power.
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Most of the inhabitants live in poverty and fear, caught between two rival criminal groups, themselves successors to paramilitary organisations which formed to fight the country’s FARC guerrillas. These rival gangs control extortion rings and drug trafficking in the area. from here
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More than 50,000 city residents have been forced from their homes in the past three years, fleeing extortion, death, and forced recruitment into one of the gangs. Around 150 people have been reported as forcibly disappeared. The mutilated body parts of at least a dozen people have been found washed up along Buenaventura’s shores, according to human-rights groups. In its report, Human Rights Watch said that victims of the criminal groups are often dismembered alive in what are known as "chop-up houses".
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With more than 80% of the population living in poverty, unemployment above 30%, unreliable supplies of electricity and water, and dismal road infrastructure, it is one of the country's least developed cities. Colombia has made great strides in recent years to reduce poverty: 47.4% of the population lived below the poverty line in 2004, and by 2013 that proportion had fallen to 30.6%. But for the inhabitants of Buenaventura the situation remains intolerably bleak.
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The two main guerrilla organizations, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and the National Liberation Army (ELN), are believed to have benefited from the collapse of law enforcement and the break-up of the drug cartels. Both are said to have provided protection for a new generation of drug producers and traffickers in exchange for taxes and contributions running in the hundreds of millions of dollars each year. They began paying their soldiers monthly salaries and re-equipped them with the best weapons available on the international arms black market. The right wing paramilitary forces are said to rely even more heavily on income derived from drugs. from here
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Historians of Colombia usually cite two sets of causes for the routinely high rates of homicide Colombia has experienced since the last century. The first is Colombia’s exceptionally difficult geography. The second involves the failure of the country’s political leaders and their followers to design effective institutions of government and make them work.
so, there are more than a few factors at play here that make it difficult to find too many clear parallels with the US to assert that gun control laws are the difference.. it is not clear that the gun control laws have really changed that much, perhaps the trend would have continued regardless. The US has the highest numbers of gun deaths of any developed rich countries.
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Not to strawman anyone's general argument, just something I'd like to point out, European countries generally have low homicide rates but if you check gun ownership there's no direct correlation. It's not illegal to own guns in many Euro countries and some of them have high rates of gun ownership. Switzerland for instance is in the top 4 countries by gun ownership and also has a homicide rate less than 1 per 100K.
gun ownership levels in Europe are still miniscule compared to the US. Yes, farmers in Europe have hunting guns traditionally but this doesnt imply its not regulated. I've worked with many swiss who all have guns as part of national defence. they make up militias and all men of military age have an assault rifle in their home. they follow strict regulations. Their assault rifles are locked up and only used in case of emergency - like switzerland being invaded. militias are well trained for this purpose so gun ownership doesnt suggest there isnt heavy gun control laws, and it doesnt suggest that the regulations are as lax as the US.
if anything, the cases of Europe show that gun control is actually very important. the ease at which you can buy a gun in the US and sell it on, under the radar, is shocking.. There is no register, no ID needed in many situations. People from south america even come to the US to buy guns. I would not be surprised if the large availability of guns and therefore crime in south america is in part due to the lack of regulation in the US. Plus US drug laws mean that the cartels are strong with a profitable market.
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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hostileuniverse
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Re: So... Guns Are Bad... Mmmmmmmkay? [Re: Tipote]
#22633972 - 12/09/15 12:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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People from south america even come to the US to buy guns. I would not be surprised if the large availability of guns and therefore crime in south america is in part due to the lack of regulation in the US.
AND OBAMA IS ALL TOO WILLING TO SELL THEM TO THEM IN AN EFFORT TO INCREASE GUN REGULATION HERE ITS A POLITICSL GAME THE GUN GRABBERS USE TO GET OUR GUNS, THEY USE EVERY TRAGEDY TO GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF LEAGL GUN OWNERS, WHILE IGNORING THE ACTUAL PROBLEMS THAT RESULT IN GUN VIOLENCE
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