Home | Community | Message Board


Gaiana.nl
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Amazon Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | Next >  [ show all ]
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986580 - 10/07/03 01:03 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

just pointing out the facts mush

well while we're at it, let's talk about these numbers:

Total firearms deaths for 1998: 30,708, down 5 percent from 1997 (32,436) and down 22 percent from a 1993 peak (39,595).

ah... here they are:  [url=http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:emovywEfu3MJ:www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/sheets/frmdth.wk1+1998+30,708+1997+32,436+1993+39,595&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]US DOJ[/url]

ok... first of all, we're using numbers that are 5 to 10 years old, when more recent numbers are available. why would someone do this?

ah.. well... let's see if we can't figure this out:

YEAR.. TOTAL GUN DEATHS.......HOMOCIDE.......SUICIDE.......ACCIDENTAL
1993.............39,595....................18,571..........18,940.........1,521........
1994.............38,505....................17,866..........18,765.........1,356........
1995.............35,957....................15,835..........18,503.........1,225........
1996.............34,040....................14,327..........18,166.........1,134........
1997.............32,436....................13,522..........17,566...........981.........
1998.............30,708....................12,102..........17,424...........866.........
1999.............28,874....................10,828..........16,599...........824.........

notice a trend? (and during the same period, the number of guns, as well as the number of people, in the united states, has increased... most puzzling :smirk:).

ah... so you were citing the older, larger numbers... the oldest of which is almost 140% larger than the most recent.

hold on a sec... not done yet...

they were stats for total firearms deaths, which include not only homocides, but suicides (of which there were many more per year than homocides) and accidents. never mind that the data for homocides also includes justifiable homocide. i thought "innocent victims" were the pressing issue here.

wouldn't the FBI's murder statistics be far more honest and relevant to this discussion? i think so. here they are:


FBI Statistics 

add the number for murder onto the number for accidental deaths, and there you have the number of innocent victims... much, much lower than between 30 and 40,000.

innocent victims killed by guns in 1999 = 9304


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986594 - 10/07/03 01:13 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

You can stop now. The debate has been won! :cool:

Just kidding. Keep it up.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (10/07/03 01:13 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: sirreal]
    #1986632 - 10/07/03 01:31 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

the sad thing is that even after the those of the opposing position have given up, even after their position has been shown to be totally lacking in logic... even when they can no longer rationally support their beliefs and this thread has passed on, they will still be believing the same old bullshit with the same passion as before.

it's really very sad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986691 - 10/07/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

poll time.


i believe that these restrictions on type of rifles that private, adult, law-abiding citizens may own, are appropriate:
no restrictions.
restrictions on automatic weapons
restrictions on semi-automatic rifles with large (20+ rounds) magazine capacity
restrictions on all semi-automatic rifles



Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986692 - 10/07/03 01:59 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)


i believe that these restrictions on type of shotguns that private, adult, law-abiding citizens may own, are appropriate:
shotguns with a barrel shorter than 18 inches
semi-automatic shotguns
all of the above
no restrictions




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986693 - 10/07/03 01:59 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)


i believe that these restrictions on type of handguns that private, adult, law-abiding citizens may own, are appropriate:
no handguns allowed
no hanguns with magazine capacity larger than 10 rounds
no restrictions




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986695 - 10/07/03 02:00 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)



as far as in what locations people may carry weapons:
people should be able to carry weapons anywhere they like, except for governmental or private places where it is prohibited by the owner
local governments should be able to enact laws banning the carrying of weapons in public
people shouldn't be allowed to transport weapons outside their own home, except if they are locked and unloaded, or if they are at a licensed shooting range.
private citizens should not be allowed to carry weapons anywhere.



i hope i put enough options in them...


Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986710 - 10/07/03 02:09 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

innocent victims killed by guns in 1999 = 9304

I see...so because your first attempt to say drunk drivers killed more people than guns was shown to be nonsense, instead of accepting that you could be wrong, you have moved onto only those people "murdered" by guns to try and prove you were right? To be honest, I was more impressed by your first reply saying you'd misunderstood the figures.

The problem with this is that by any semblance of logic you would then have to compare that figure to those deliberately murdered by drunk drivers.

I think you'll find the number of people deliberately murdered by drunk drivers to be very, very small (if indeed there are any). There is certainly no question whatsoever that the figure would be many thousands less than those murdered by guns.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1986759 - 10/07/03 02:33 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

i hope i put enough options in them...




You left one out.

Call me a nut, but I think a law abiding citizen should be able to carry his gun wherever he goes. Even into a government building.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1986771 - 10/07/03 02:37 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

You're still wrong. :lol: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: sirreal]
    #1986849 - 10/07/03 03:12 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I can carry my concealed weapon almost everywhere in my state


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OnlineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 24,130
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 4 minutes, 34 seconds
Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1986901 - 10/07/03 03:32 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I don't see any reason to seperate murders from accidental deaths.

It looks to me that there is as much reason to bring bac alcohol prohibition as there is to ban guns. People who commit suicide using guns should be eliminated from the statistics as well as drunks who die in auto accidents.

There are many other innocent deaths every year besides those caused by alcohol impared driving alone.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1987120 - 10/07/03 04:43 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I see...so because your first attempt to say drunk drivers killed more people than guns was shown to be nonsense, instead of accepting that you could be wrong, you have moved onto only those people "murdered" by guns to try and prove you were right?

the total killed by drunk driving is greater than the total killed by guns.

i'm more concerned with the total innocent victims killed though, which is an area i will certainly admit that guns have the upper hand. i claimed otherwise before because i misread the figures.

i did not post these figures about murder to prove anything except that your figures of between 30,000 to 40,000 were misleading, or at the very least were irrelevant to the topic of innocent victims, which, correct me if i'm wrong here, is what we're talking about.

it had nothing to do with our comparisons to drunk driving. i can admit i was mistaken.



The problem with this is that by any semblance of logic you would then have to compare that figure to those deliberately murdered by drunk drivers.

if one was to compare drunk driving deaths vs. gun deaths, yes, it would be correct to compare firearm-murder victims to innocent victims of drunk drivers.

but my point was not to make any such comparison. i am well aware, after having another look at the figures, that i misread them at first and that though drunk driving does kill more than guns do, it almost certainly claims fewer innocent victims.

i was not posting these figures as part of our discussion about drunk driving deaths vs. gun deaths. my above post contains not one reference to drunk driving.

I think you'll find the number of people deliberately murdered by drunk drivers to be very, very small (if indeed there are any). There is certainly no question whatsoever that the figure would be many thousands less than those murdered by guns.

correct. that goes without saying.

ok, so let's review what we know from the statistics: drunk driving kills more people per year than guns do, but almost half of all gun deaths are innocent victims, while not nearly as many innocent victims die as the result of drunk driving (this last part is only an assumption, but one i think we'll both agree is safe to make; we have no data here about innocent victims killed by drunk driving).

so as far as we should be concerned here, guns are more dangerous to innocent bystanders than drunk driving is. i was well aware of that before i made my last post.

glad we've got that settled. i thought we already had.

this drunk driving business has little to do with anything, which is why i'm finished with it, and was even before i made my previous post. i can name alot of things that kill more people than guns each year, and alot of things that kill less. so what?now if we can seperate ourselves from this little red herring and get back on topic, that'd be great.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,478
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 23 hours, 54 minutes
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1987245 - 10/07/03 05:29 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

The 3000 killed on 9-11-01 weren't counted as murder victims? Were they not killed?

That stat blows my mind.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1987255 - 10/07/03 05:32 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

as far as i'm aware, there weren't any firearms involved.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,478
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 23 hours, 54 minutes
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1987352 - 10/07/03 05:59 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I'm refering to the murder victims by weapon stat from the FBI (The hijackers used weapons to hijack the planes and they used the planes as weapons... vehicular homicide on a very large scale).

I understand why it was left out but it isn't exactly honest. I guess people killed by acts of terrorism aren't murdered in the eyes of the feds.

Of course, this has nothing to do with guns. I'm not even arguing. Just wanted to point this out. It surprised me.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,478
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 23 hours, 54 minutes
Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1987363 - 10/07/03 06:02 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Would they have counted it if the WTC was blown up with a bomb?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1987380 - 10/07/03 06:06 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

That stat blows my mind.

that's discussed on this page.

makes sense if you think about it. it's a sort of statistical outlier.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,478
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 23 hours, 54 minutes
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1987399 - 10/07/03 06:13 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Cool link.

It is simple realy. When this study began, they didn't intend to study terror (This study began in 1929). They would taint the study mid way if they started tracking terror stats in 2001. They wanted to track good old fashioned American murder.

Still... what happened to never forget? America has changed a lot since 1929. I wonder if any blacks weren't counted among the murdered in the early years of this study.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: gun control *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #1987555 - 10/07/03 07:16 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Post deleted by mushmaster


Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Amazon Scales

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The False Promise of Gun Control
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,169 23 04/16/03 07:53 PM
by pattern
* 40 Reasons For Gun Control
( 1 2 all )
Ellis Dee 5,324 31 10/08/13 04:05 AM
by Therian
* Whither Gun Control? luvdemshrooms 1,291 12 05/23/04 09:23 AM
by Xlea321
* Test your knowledge of gun control:
( 1 2 3 all )
Ellis Dee 4,913 45 09/14/01 08:14 PM
by wingnutx
* Gun Control, does it work?
( 1 2 3 all )
Granola 2,976 46 12/25/03 07:50 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* The most thoughtful gun-control position I've seen yet... retread 785 5 09/02/04 12:49 AM
by retread
* Gun control part #666 PjS 1,252 7 12/30/01 11:26 PM
by nugsarenice
* Gun Lock Giveaways - Effective Gun Control enimatpyrt 773 10 12/30/03 10:15 AM
by luvdemshrooms

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
13,064 topic views. 7 members, 0 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Everything Mushrooms
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.227 seconds spending 0.162 seconds on 42 queries.