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OfflineEllis Dee
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London: Massive rise in gun murders
    #504719 - 12/30/01 12:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=484328&in_review_text_id=440945

Massive rise in gun murders

by Justin Davenport Crime Correspondent
? Associated Newspapers Ltd., 19 December 2001

Gun crime in London is rocketing, with increases of almost 90 per cent in
some firearms offences, Scotland Yard revealed today.

New figures show London murders with guns increased by 87 per cent in the
first eight months of the year compared with the same period last year.

There were significant rises in virtually all offences involving firearms.
Armed muggings increased from 435 to 667, a rise of 53 per cent.

Senior officers said the dramatic increase was driven mainly by links with
organised crime and drug trafficking.

The 16 murders involving black gangsters fighting for control of London's
crack cocaine market represent a leap of 77 per cent.

Commander Alan Brown, head of the Operation Trident taskforce against "black
on black" gun crime, described the increases as "an extremely worrying
development".

Overall, he said there had been a 20 per cent increase in armed crime in
London. "The level of violence is increasing, there is no doubt about that,"
he said. "We have seen shootings in the West End. This is not just happening
in Hackney or Brent, this is a problem for all of London."

Mr Brown said he was particularly worried about the scale of "black on
black" gun crime and revealed 74 attempted murders had involved black gunmen
this year, the first time these figures have been compiled.

"These were clear attempts to kill and it is only because of poor
marksmanship or poor ammunition that these people were not killed. It seems
to be often a matter of luck whether you suffer an injury or you die."

Lambeth was still the hot spot for gun crime involving armed drugdealing
gangsters, while other high-crime areas included Hackney, Haringey, Brent
and Camden.

Mr Brown said it was estimated that four tonnes of cocaine were smuggled
into Britain every year on flights from Jamaica, and police had identified a
clear link between firearms crime and drug trafficking.

Senior officers are particularly concerned about the rise in robberies
involving guns, although they point out most are likely to be imitation.

Mr Brown said: "Black communities are coming to the stage where they are
saying enough is enough. They are more supportive of us than they were three
years ago.

"We are talking about black criminals committing offences against the black
community. There is no doubt that the majority of suspects in street
robberies are black.

"If you look at the majority of suspects committing armed commercial
robbery, the suspects are black. This is a shift from years ago when most
armed commercial robberies were committed by whites."

Mr Brown said police were recovering a range of weapons, from reactivated
guns to sophisticated weapons such as Uzi submachineguns. Drug gangsters who
were arrested or killed were quickly replaced, he said.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (12/30/01 12:12 PM)


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #507831 - 01/02/02 04:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Its just crack dealers shooting each other, not a bad thing in my opinion. Our police still dont carry guns so it's safer over here than in the US. It's funny how when the constitution was written the 'right to bear arms' meant the 'right to join an army/militia' not the 'right to carry a gun'.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: mm.]
    #508264 - 01/02/02 10:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Its just crack dealers shooting each other, not a bad thing in my opinion.

In my opinion anyone killing anyone else is a bad thing.

Our police still dont carry guns so it's safer over here than in the US.

Wrong, England (including wales) is the most dangerous country in the industrialized world. Way more violent crime than in America. England, (including wales) has the highest rate of victimization in the industrialized world. The second most dangerous is australia. America is in the middle ranking countries, although America does have a higher murder rate.

It's funny how when the constitution was written the 'right to bear arms' meant the 'right to join an army/militia' not the 'right to carry a gun'.

Wrong again. No constitutional amendment refers to the state's freedom. They all refer to the peoples freedoms. The founding fathers were clear on this issue.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #510911 - 01/05/02 01:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

'The right to bear arms' has traditionally meant the right of an individual to join an army, it has nothing to do with the state. It certainly wasnt meant to mean every citizen has the right to carry a weapon - this is a misinterpretation.

I couldnt find sufficient violent crime figures for the US but it is clear that there are way more murders than in the UK, and this I would attribute, at least in part, to the fact that so many people carry guns. They may be more violent crime in the UK, but certainly not 500% more, which is the case with homiceds in the US. I think therefore that US is a way more dangerous place to live.



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: mm.]
    #511534 - 01/05/02 11:10 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

'The right to bear arms' has traditionally meant the right of an individual to join an army, it has nothing to do with the state. It certainly wasnt meant to mean every citizen has the right to carry a weapon - this is a misinterpretation.



"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms?disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater ? confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment (1764).

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War (1775).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution (1776).

"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." Edmund Burke (1784).

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops." Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution Proposed BV the Late Convention (1787).

"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense or by partial orders of towns...is a dissolution of the government." John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America (1787-1788).

"Americans need not fear the federal government because they enjoy the advantage of being armed, which you possess over the people of almost every other nation." James Madison.

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms ?To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms . . . " Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters From the Federal Farmer 53 (1788).

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788).

"?The said Constitution be never construed ?to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams, during Massachusetts's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788).

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788)

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." --James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46

"Suppose that we let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal: still it would not be going to far to say that the State governments with the people at their side would be able to repel the danger...half a million citizens with arms in their hands" --James Madison, The Federalist Papers

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-- Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania. [Note: This sentence was often quoted in the Revolutionary period. It occurs even so early as November, 1755, in an answer by the Assembly of Pennsylvania to the Governor, and forms the motto of Franklin's "Historical Review," 1759, appearing also in the body of the work.--Frothingham: Rise of the Republic of the United States, p. 413. ]

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crime."--Cesare Beccaria, quoted by Thomas Jefferson

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms has been recognized by the General Government; but the best security of that right after all is, the military spirit, that taste for martial exercises, which has always distinguished the free citizens of these States....Such men form the best barrier to the liberties of America" -- Gazette of the United States, October 14, 1789.

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..."--James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789.

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." --Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Framer (1788) at p. 169

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."--Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at p. 750, August 17, 1789.

"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380.

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." --James Madison, The Federalist Papers No. 46 at 243-244.

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States"--Noah Webster in "An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution," 1787, in Paul Ford, ed., Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, at p. 56 (New York, 1888).

"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..." --Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist No. 29.

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." --Tench Coxe in `Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1.

"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people" --Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." --Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, Walter Bennett, ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican, at 21,22,124 (Univ. of Alabama Press,1975.

"The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." --Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution. Debates and other Proceedings of the Convention of Virginia,...taken in shorthand by David Robertson of Petersburg, at 271, 275 2d ed. Richmond, 1805. Also 3 Elliot, Debates at 386

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." --Zachariah Johnson, 3 Elliot, Debates at 646

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" --Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." (Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." --Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Pierce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850).

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants" --Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy p. 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. --Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318, Foley, Ed., reissued 1967.

"The supposed quietude of a good mans allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside...Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them..." --Thomas Paine, I Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894).

"...the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms" --from article in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette June 18, 1789 at 2, col.2.

"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787, in Papers of Jefferson, ed. Boyd et al.)

"[The American Colonies were] all democratic governments, where the power is in the hands of the people and where there is not the least difficulty or jealousy about putting arms into the hands of every man in the country. [European countries should not] be ignorant of the strength and the force of such a form of government and how strenuously and almost wonderfully people living under one have sometimes exerted themselves in defence of their rights and liberties and how fatally it has ended with many a man and many a state who have entered into quarrels, wars and contests with them." --George Mason, "Remarks on Annual Elections for the Fairfax Independent Company" in The Papers of George Mason, 1725-1792, ed Robert A. Rutland (Chapel Hill, 1970).

"It is not certain that with this aid alone [possession of arms], they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to posses the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will, and direct the national force; and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround it." --James Madison, Federalist No. 46.

In reply to:

I couldnt find sufficient violent crime figures for the US but it is clear that there are way more murders than in the UK, and this I would attribute, at least in part, to the fact that so many people carry guns. They may be more violent crime in the UK, but certainly not 500% more, which is the case with homiceds in the US. I think therefore that US is a way more dangerous place to live.



England has 50% more rapes than the US and 25% of the population. Maybe England has a lot of rapists because there's noting quite like unarmed women to rape... England has a higher rate of violent crime victimization that the US. The US murder rate is higher but that should not be attributed to English gun confiscation. There are historical and cultural reasons for this. Some countries which have stricter gun confiscation than England have much higher murder rates.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: mm.]
    #511570 - 01/05/02 11:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

I couldnt find sufficient violent crime figures for the US but it is clear that there are way more murders than in the UK, and this I would attribute, at least in part, to the fact that so many people carry guns. They may be more violent crime in the UK, but certainly not 500% more, which is the case with homiceds in the US. I think therefore that US is a way more dangerous place to live



BTW, your estimate of 500% more homicide in the US over England is a little high...

(RATES PER 100,000 POPULATION)

Nation Suicide Homicide
Albania 2.1 5.5
Argentina 6.6 4.4
Austria 22.2* 1.0
Azerbaijan 0.7 8.9**
Bahamas 1.2 10.8*
Bahrain 3.1 0.4
Barbados 6.4 6.4
Balarus 27.9* 10.4*
Belgium 18.7* 1.7
Brazil 3.5 19.0*
Bulgaria 17.3* 19.0*
Canada 13.4* 1.7
Cape Verde 2.4 1.7
Chile 5.7 2.9
China 17.6* 1.4
Colombia 3.5 80.0*
Costa Rica 5.0 5.6
Croatia 22.8* 3.3
Cuba 20.3* 7.8**
Czech Republic 18.6* 2.1
Denmark 22.3* 4.9
Dominican Republic 2.1 4.8
Ecuador 4.8 13.4*
Egypt 0.0 0.5
El Salvador 8.9 27.4*
Estonia 40.1* 22.2*
Finland 27.2* 2.9
France 20.8* 1.1
Georgia 3.6 2.8
Germany 15.8* 1.1
Greece 3.3 1.3
Guatemala 0.5 1.3
Guyana 1.7 0.3
Hong Kong 11.8** 1.2
Hungary 32.9* 3.5
Iceland 9.4 0.4
Ireland 9.1 0.6
Isle of Man 9.9 1.4
Israel 6.5 1.4
Italy 8.2 1.7
Japan 16.7* 0.6
Kazakhstan 28.6* 19.4*
Korea, South 9.4 1.6
Kuwait 1.9 1.7
Kyrgyzstan 13.4* 12.1*
Latvia 40.7* 18.2*
Lithuania 45.6* 11.7*
Luxembourg 15.4* 0.7
Macao 6.1 3.7
Malta 4.1 0.8
Martinique 12.8* 4.3
Mauritius 1.4 0.2
Mexico 3.2 17.2*
Moldova 18.4* 16.5*
Netherlands 9.8 1.2
New Zealand 14.7* 2.0
Nicaragua 3.3 5.5
Norway 12.3* 0.8
Panama 3.0 5.2
Paraguay 2.3 9.8*
Philippines 1.3 11.5*
Poland 14.2* 2.8
Portugal 8.2 1.7
Puerto Rico 8.8 23.8*
Romania 12.3* 4.1
Russia 41.2* 30.6*
Sao Tome 1.1 15.1*
Singapore 13.4* 1.8
Slovenia 28.4* 2.4
Spain 8.1 0.9
Suriname 12.9* 1.5
Sweden 15.3* 1.0
Switzerland 21.4* 2.7
Tajikistan 3.7 10.4*
Trinidad 11.8** 11.7*
Turkmenistan 5.3 4.0
Ukraine 22.5* 11.3*
United Kingdom 8.0 0.9
United States (as per the United Nations) 11.9 9.4
U.S.A. (as per the U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1997) 11.1 7.0***
Uruguay 10.3 4.4
Uzbekistan 6.2 4.3
Venezuela 5.1 15.7*
Yugoslavia 15.3* 2.0
Zimbabwe 7.5 6.9

*Figures exceeding U.S. figures at time of publication.
**Figures exceeding most recent (1997) U.S. figures, shown in parentheses.
***This rate decreased by over 7 percent in 1998 to 6.3
Source: United Nations 1996 Demographic Yearbook published in 1998


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: mm.]
    #514283 - 01/08/02 01:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

None of the 10 ammendments of the Bill of Rights refer to a right given to state or federal government, but to individuals. This includes the second ammendment.

If you want your own copy of the US Constitution to read, you can get a nice pocket copy for $5 at www.cato.org

That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.- George Orwell


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: wingnutx]
    #514287 - 01/08/02 01:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. - Mahatma Gandhi "Gandhi, An Autobiography", M. K. Gandhi, page 446


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: mm.]
    #514307 - 01/08/02 01:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Most murder rates have more to do with culture and economy than how many guns people have. I myself have a few guns and like to shoot ( its alot like meditation and rocket science mixxed together ). Here in the US place with the strictest anti gun policies have had the most crime rate overall not just murders. First Washington DC now Chicago, California, ect. Self defense should be seen as a natural part of livin just like eating or sleeping. It is something that you need to do or become a victim.

And now for a funny picture. Its is not me but I could not help myself.



--------------------
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.
---Galileo


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #514318 - 01/08/02 01:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You will notice from your statistics that the US has a 750-1000% higher homicide rate than the UK, which is higher than the 500% that I quoted. If police carried guns in this country, and the general populace were allowed to carry firearms, then the murder rate here would be closer to that in America - making the UK much more dangerous place to live than it is now


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Boglyn]
    #514321 - 01/08/02 01:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Places with the strictest anti-gun polices in the US have more murders because those policies are more likely to stop lawful people from carrying guns than criminals. Before you restrict lawful ownership you must first drasticaly cut unlawful ownership, something that is very hard to do.


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: mm.]
    #514327 - 01/08/02 02:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If danger was solely from murder than the UK would be a much safer place than the USA. But saftey is also related to rapes, robberies, and other violent crimes. And the UK has a drastically higher rate of these crimes than the USA. The UK has at least 800% more rapes per capita... So maybe if you're a woman the UK is a more dangerous place. Saftey is a lot more than having a low murder rate. The US is safer for rapes, home burglaries, armed robberies, etcetera.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #514337 - 01/08/02 02:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This is an intersting article outlining the differneces in crime rates in the UK and US, it claims rape is three times higher in the US, but assault, burglary etc are higher in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_810000/810522.stm


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Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #515005 - 01/09/02 02:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"In my opinion anyone killing anyone else is a bad thing. "

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

While I understand you think it's different between "war" and "homicide", I've got news for you. That statement and everything you say about Afghanistan conflict.


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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
long standing member;)

Registered: 07/27/00
Posts: 2,678
Loc: Alba
Massive PROPORTIONAL rise in gun murders [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #541947 - 02/06/02 02:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

Wrong, England (including wales) is the most dangerous country in the industrialized world.



Ahahahahahahahah! Hahaaaaaaa!
Nice one;)
Also, please note (and I'm not referring to any statistics quoted in this thread, as I can't be bothered to search for them) that if the number of gun murders in England was 12 in 2000 and was 23 in 2001 that would account for a 90% rise. It only sounds like a huge rise if you don't take into account the very small number of gun killings in the UK. It wouldn't surprise me if more people are shot in LA in one day, than in the UK in a year. 


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hmmm........


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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Captain Jack]
    #541995 - 02/06/02 02:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

lol@Captain Jack!


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>>Jammer>>


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
twigburst
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Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 2,387
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: London: Massive rise in gun murders [Re: Jammer]
    #545735 - 02/09/02 01:37 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I'd feel alot more safe rolling around in the most dangerous part of London then walking down any street in spanish harlem. There are way more cities in the US were violence and murder are a part of life.


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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,045
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 hours, 58 minutes
Big cities are dirty and poor! [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #545799 - 02/09/02 02:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Spanish harlem!!! Thats in NEW YORK CITY!!! New York City is a bad place. I wouldn't go there either. I hate big cities completely. As far as I'm concerned all big cities are dirty and poor and I won't go there.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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