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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Thank god for gun ownership...
    #941905 - 10/08/02 07:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The freedom to own high powered rifles. Ain't it a beautiful thing...

Suburbs paralysed by fear of the sniper

Police baffled as attacks spread into new areas in Washington

Suzanne Goldenberg in Bowie, Maryland
Tuesday October 8, 2002
The Guardian

A police helicopter buzzed over the school playing field as a cavalcade of parents, hunched anxiously over their steering wheels, headed for the latest hunting ground for the serial killer of Washington's suburbs.

The exodus from Benjamin Tasker middle school started almost as soon as the school week began, at 8.09 am yesterday morning, when a 13-year-old boy was shot in the chest and critically wounded, moments after his guardian had dropped him off at the main entrance. As in last week's string of suburban killings, the boy was hit by a single shot, seemingly out of nowhere, fired with deadly precision.

The teenager, whose name was not released, was flown to Washington DC, where was said to be in a critical condition after several hours of surgery.

Police later confirmed that the bullet recovered from the boy linked the shooting to the experienced, highly skilled marksman who, since last Wednesday, had killed six people in the American capital and nearby Montgomery county, Maryland.

A seventh, a woman from Virginia, was seriously wounded when she was shot in the back while loading groceries into her car at a shopping mall.

"The projectile that was recovered from our victim this morning has been linked to our sniper. We are continuing to follow up on leads," the Prince George county police chief, Gerald Wilson, told a news conference. But police admitted that they had no clear leads - no suspect, and no explanation for the seemingly random attacks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,806690,00.html





--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinevatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 7,653
Last seen: 17 years, 3 days
Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Xlea321]
    #942322 - 10/08/02 10:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: vatoloco]
    #942383 - 10/08/02 11:23 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Tell that to the mother of the 13 year old kid.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #942384 - 10/08/02 11:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So would you prefer we had an incident like in China where a shop owner put poison in a competitors food and killed 30 plus kids? They were much safer weren't they.

Or perhaps like in NYC where a man drove his car up on a sidewalk and mowed over several pedestrians, drove away, and then came back days later and did it again?

Would you feel better then?

Just because the people in your country are pussies doesn't mean we need to be.

Get over it. Guns are legal here. We have a constitutional right to own them despite what you think.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #942391 - 10/08/02 11:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Would you feel better then?

Would I feel better if madmen didn't have access to high powered automatic rifles?

Er...YEAH!!

We have a constitutional right to own them despite what you think.

No you don't. Repeating something twenty times doesn't make it anymore true you know. You should've learned that from Evolving.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #942418 - 10/08/02 11:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I think even you are smart enough to know that's not what I asked. But maybe you aren't.

Well Al, still beating that dead horse. You may not like the fact that we do, you may not want to accept the fact that we do, you may not want to believe the evidence that we do, but we do.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/08/02 11:42 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #942436 - 10/08/02 11:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Evidence? You don't know the meaning of the word. Certainly you've never provided any. Your only reason for existing is making crap one-liners because you havn't the intellect to engage at any deeper level.

Certainly no court in america would agree with your definition of the second amendment.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblesuperpimp
The boss of thefamily

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 8,706
Loc: Philadelphia/NYC
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #942437 - 10/08/02 11:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Meanwhile, 100 people died in the past few days from drunk driving accidents. I think we should outlaw liquor. That way no madman would have access to drink that would make him go out and kill small children. Passing laws against all Americans will certainly prevent bad people from doing bad things.


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InvisibleVSOPXO
Cognacaholic

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 1,751
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #942451 - 10/08/02 11:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Evidence? You don't know the meaning of the word. Certainly you've never provided any.


Alex123, show me evidence then where it says Americans do not have the constitutional right to bear arms.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #942455 - 10/08/02 11:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Repeating something twenty times doesn't make it anymore true you know. You should've learned that from Evolving.



Alex, you are the only one who just repeats something and expects others to believe it. I repeat questions and requests to you and you never answer them because you lack resources to form a valid response. You know next to nothing about the second amendment and how U.S. courts will rule. Clean up your own crime ridden country before you tell us how to do things here.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleVSOPXO
Cognacaholic

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 1,751
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #942689 - 10/08/02 01:38 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Alex, you are the only one who just repeats something and expects others to believe it.


Agreed :

-luvdemshrooms:
"We have a constitutional right to own them despite what you think. "
-Alex:
"No you don't. Repeating something twenty times doesn't make it anymore true you know"

Show me where my country says we don't have the right to bear arms,you can't because our country was at least in part based on this principle,Alex shut the fuck up.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: VSOPXO]
    #943244 - 10/08/02 05:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm sure he know's we have the right. I beginning to think Al is just not happy unless he think he's creating a stir.

The alternative is that he's just to stupid to breathe on his own.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/08/02 05:03 PM)


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InvisibleFrog31337
Stranger

Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 779
Loc: Midwest, US
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #943421 - 10/08/02 06:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>>The freedom to own high powered rifles. Ain't it a beautiful thing...
Yes, I have a couple myself.

>>We have a constitutional right to own them
I'm not going to say 'right' but that is how the courts have interpreted it so far, so yes we do.

>>Certainly no court in america would agree with your definition of the second amendment.
(see above answer)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #943463 - 10/08/02 06:22 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

LOL


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #943993 - 10/08/02 09:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No evidence whatsoever from anyone again. This is getting a little familiar...

Here's a little evidence instead of childish insults.

The NRA still can't convince the high court:


The Supreme court: Cruikshank v. U.S. 1876, "The right of bearing arms for a lawful purpose is not a right granted by the constitution, nor is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence".

In 1916, the role of the so called "citizen militia" was formerly supplanted by the National Defense Act, which recognized the National Guard as the "militia."

The Supreme Court, 1939 U.S. v. Miller, Unanimous decision, Conservative Justice James McReynolds wrote for the Court: "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense. The Constitution, as originally adopted, granted to the Congress power --'To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress. With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces, the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."

"The NRA has perpetrated a fraud on the American public." The late former Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger, on the 2nd amendment.

1981: The National Rifle Association, and a host of gun organizations, fight the constitutionality of Morton Grove Illinois' ban on the possession of handguns, except to those "needing them for their work." A federal district court rules in favor of Morton Grove, the NRA appeals to the Supreme Court on a constitutionality basis. The Supreme court refuses to hear the already exhausted argument. Morton Grove wins.

1992: The NRA conducts a cowardly retreat from their constitutional appeal of the California Assault Weapons Ban. Giving up the opportunity for the nation to see them defeated by their own erroneous interpretation of the 2nd amendment.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #944006 - 10/08/02 09:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I beginning to think Al is just not happy unless

Any chance of you ever making a post on topic? Every single post you've made for the last 3 weeks has been a one liner about me. Your devotion is touching but it's not helping the board.

Maybe it's time the moderators took at look at you?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFrog31337
Stranger

Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 779
Loc: Midwest, US
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #944777 - 10/09/02 08:20 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The US constitution might not explicitly spell out the right of individuals to bear arms, but several states have clarified this issue in their constitutions. US citizens have a right to bear arms in defense of themselves.





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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #945056 - 10/09/02 10:30 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex, the earliest reference you sight is from 1876. Do you have any references from the founding fathers that state their intentions? By 1876, the U.S. had already succumbed to a temporary dictatorship under Abraham Lincoln who jailed dissidents, shut down newspapers, jailed people without habeas corpus, sent masses of federal troops into a State (I believe it was Maryland) and had them vote to oust political opponents, and exiled political opponents. At this point I think it's safe to say that the constitution had already been violated and ignored by those in power. It is a well known fact that Presidents try to stack the Supreme court with justices who will rubber stamp their agendas, justices who instead of ruling on new laws and how the constitution applies to them, re-interpret the constitution to suite their political agenda.

Please address the following directly:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.

I await your evasion and refusal to address these points.



--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #945176 - 10/09/02 11:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Evolving,
I admire your tenacity.

In reply to:

I await your evasion and refusal to address these points.



Yes.... me too. I have no doubt that your question to him will remain, as always, unanswered.

I don't blame you for asking though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #945565 - 10/09/02 01:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I await your evasion and refusal to address these points.

LOL!!

Tell me, do you think the supreme court havn't taken all these points into account when they dismissed the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment?

Or do you think I'm in charge of the supreme court too?

Why do you think the supreme court and every court in america disagrees with you and the NRA? Are they all "evading and refusing to address the points" too? Or are they simply interpreting the second amendment correctly? Have you ever thought the supreme courts decision might indicate you are wrong? Or isn't the truth ever allowed to enter your rigid belief system?

I await your evasion with interest  :grin:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/09/02 02:16 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #945578 - 10/09/02 02:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)


Yes.... me too. I have no doubt that your question to him will remain, as always, unanswered.

Another post from luvdemshrooms with no reference whatsoever to the topic. This has been going on for weeks now.

Moderators!


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/09/02 02:10 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #945825 - 10/09/02 03:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Certainly no court in america would agree with your definition of the second amendment.



Gosh Al.... what a surprise but you're wrong again.

First... there have been very few 2nd ammendment cases in the last 250 years but in 1999 it was found to be a INDIVIDUAL right by U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings , and again Oct, 2001 by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals .

"10/16/01: The decision is finally in. Case # 99-10331. The majority (Garwood wrote, DeMoss signed onto it) found the Second Amendment is an individual right, but reversed and remanded the Emerson case. As expected, Parker in a minority opinion did not want to support the Second Amendment. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals has jurisdiction in Louisiana, Mississippi & Texas.""

And since you seem to be unable or unwilling to undertand what "the people" means.... try this...
"United States v. Verdugo-Urquirdez, 110 S. Ct. 3039 (1990). This case involved the meaning of the term "the people" in the Fourth Amendment. The Court unanimously held that the term "the people" in the Second Amendment had the same meaning as in the Preamble to the Constitution and in the First, Fourth, and Ninth Amendments, i.e., that "the people" means at least all citizens and legal aliens while in the United States. This case thus resolves any doubt that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right."


"Gilbert Equipment Co., Inc. v. Higgins, 709 F. Supp. 1071(S.D. Ala. 1989), aff'd, 894 F.2d 412 (11th Cir. 1990) (mem). The court held that the Second Amendment "guarantees to all Americans' the right to keep and bear arms'. . ."


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #945902 - 10/09/02 03:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

True to form, you have evaded another explicit request, and avoided any attempt to directly address points brought up as requested. Let's try this again and I'll type s-l-o-w-l-y so perhaps you can understand...

Please address the following directly to illustrate that the original intent of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.

If you are unable or unwilling to directly respond with quotes and verifiable sources, we can all take this as an admission that you are incorrect about your interpretation of the second amendment versus the original intent of the authors and ratifiers of the constitution.

We await your further comical evasions...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/09/02 04:05 PM)


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Offlinefoghorn
enthusiast
Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 308
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #946156 - 10/09/02 05:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

haha

you guys bicker like politicians!


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #947241 - 10/09/02 10:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If you are unable or unwilling to directly respond with quotes and verifiable sources, we can all take this as an admission that you are incorrect about your interpretation of the second amendment versus the original intent of the authors and ratifiers of the constitution.

It isn't me who makes the supreme courts decisions evolving. Do you often think you can interpret the law better than every lawyer who has worked for the supreme court on this issue for the last 100 years?

You will never address this will you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #947340 - 10/09/02 10:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Gosh Al.... what a surprise but you're wrong again.

Well I'm glad I panicked you into making a post on topic at least! Did the moderators have a word with you?

No, none of the cases you have mentioned support the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment according to the supreme court. To say they do is pure disinformation. You've picked the Emerson quote of a right-wing site and not read anymore about it havn't you. Try reading the court transcript.

Here's a little more information:

"The action of the United States Supreme Court today in denying review of the lower court rulings in Haney v. United States and Emerson v. United States provides no comfort to the extremist gun lobby and others who view the Second Amendment as a weapon against reasonable gun laws. It remains true that never in our nation's history has a federal court struck down a gun law on Second Amendment grounds.

"In Haney, the Court declined to hear an appeal from a lower court ruling that there is no constitutional right to own a machine gun. The National Rifle Association has long taken the position that such a right is guaranteed by the Second Amendment. In Emerson, the Court declined review of a lower court ruling upholding the constitutionality of the federal ban on possession of guns by persons under domestic violence restraining orders. The NRA filed an amicus curiae, or 'friend of the court,' brief in the Emerson case in support of the criminal defendant, arguing that the ban should be struck down.

"Every federal appeals court in the country, except two judges on the Emerson panel, has rejected the NRA view, and has held that the Second Amendment does not provide individuals with a right to possess firearms absent a relationship with a state militia. With today's actions by the Supreme Court, the gun lobby continues its unbroken string of defeats in Second Amendment challenges to gun laws."

Proponents of the "individual rights" interpretation believe that the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees a right to keep and bear arms without any connection to an organized militia. For decades, the National Rifle Association and others opposed to common-sense gun laws have tried to use their interpretation of the Second Amendment to challenge gun control measures.

Once again, no court in america would agree with your definition of the second amendment.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/09/02 10:40 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Posts: 34,245
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #947925 - 10/10/02 01:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Well I'm glad I panicked you into making a post on topic at least! Did the moderators have a word with you?




Wrong on both counts.

Quote:

Try reading the court transcript. 



Apparently of the two of us, I'm the only one who did read it all the way through. I read the actual decision written by the court. Not what others interpret it as.

Quote:

Once again, no court in america would agree with your definition of the second amendment. 



Wrong yet again. But no surprise.

Sorry to see you're so closed minded that you can't admit you're wrong.

"The United States appeals the district court's dismissal of the indictment of Defendant-Appellee Dr. Timothy Joe Emerson (Emerson) for violating 18 U.S.C. ? 922(g)(8)(C)(ii). The district court held that section 922(g)(8)(C)(ii) was unconstitutional on its face under the Second Amendment and as applied to Emerson under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment. We reverse and remand."

"The district court granted Emerson's motions to dismiss. Subsequently, the district court issued an amended memorandum opinion reported at 46 F.Supp.2d 598 (N.D. Tex. 1999). The district court held that dismissal of the indictment was proper on Second or Fifth Amendment grounds, but rejected Emerson's Tenth Amendment and Commerce Clause arguments."

"B. Stare Decisis and United States v. Miller

The government steadfastly maintains that the Supreme Court's decision in United States v. Miller, 59 S.Ct. 816 (1939), mandated acceptance of the collective rights or sophisticated collective rights model, and rejection of the individual rights or standard model, as a basis for construction of the Second Amendment. We disagree.

Only in United States v. Miller has the Supreme Court rendered any holding respecting the Second Amendment as applied to the federal government.(13) There, the indictment charged the defendants with transporting in interstate commerce, from Oklahoma to Arkansas, an unregistered "Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length" without having the required stamped written order, contrary to the National Firearms Act.(14) The defendants filed a demurrer challenging the facial validity of the indictment on the ground that "[t]he National Firearms Act . . . offends the inhibition of the Second Amendment," and "[t]he District Court held that section 11 of the Act [proscribing interstate transportation of a firearm, as therein defined, that lacked registration or a stamped order] violates the Second Amendment. It accordingly sustained the demurrer and quashed the indictment."

"These passages from Miller suggest that the militia, the assurance of whose continuation and the rendering possible of whose effectiveness Miller says were purposes of the Second Amendment, referred to the generality of the civilian male inhabitants throughout their lives from teenage years until old age and to their personally keeping their own arms, and not merely to individuals during the time (if any) they might be actively engaged in actual military service or only to those who were members of special or select units."

"There is no evidence in the text of the Second Amendment, or any other part of the Constitution, that the words "the people" have a different connotation within the Second Amendment than when employed elsewhere in the Constitution. In fact, the text of the Constitution, as a whole, strongly suggests that the words "the people" have precisely the same meaning within the Second Amendment as without. And, as used throughout the Constitution, "the people" have "rights" and "powers," but federal and state governments only have "powers" or "authority", never "rights."(24) Moreover, the Constitution's text likewise recognizes not only the difference between the "militia" and "the people" but also between the "militia" which has not been "call[ed] forth" and "the militia, when in actual service."(25)"

" Several other Supreme Court opinions speak of the Second Amendment in a manner plainly indicating that the right which it secures to "the people" is an individual or personal, not a collective or quasi-collective, right in the same sense that the rights secured to "the people" in the First and Fourth Amendments, and the rights secured by the other provisions of the first eight amendments, are individual or personal, and not collective or quasi-collective, rights. See, e.g., Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 112 S.Ct. 2791, 2805 (1992); Moore v. City of East Cleveland, 97 S.Ct. 1932, 1937 (1977);(26) Robertson v. Baldwin, supra (see quotation in note 17 supra); Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393, 417, 450-51, 15 L.Ed. 691, 705, 719 (1856). See also Justice Black's concurring opinion in Duncan v. Louisiana, 88 S.Ct. 1444, 1456 (1968).(27) "

I could go on but these are all from just the first 20% +/-.

I don't imagine that as a product of a government who has never completely trusted it's citizens that they'll have any effect on you at all.

Funny though how you still haven't answered any of Evolvings questions. Again... no surprise.

Oh, would you like me to cut and paste a few of your posts that don't refer to the matter at hand? Since you don't appear to be able to remember them I'd be glad to do it for you.

Or should I be as big a pussy as you and write "Moderator" after each post where you have "strayed?"

If the cut and paste doesn't work for you I'd be glad to bump them to the top of the list of posts so you can find them easier.  :grin:



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #948109 - 10/10/02 03:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The government steadfastly maintains that the Supreme Court's decision in United States v. Miller, 59 S.Ct. 816 (1939), mandated acceptance of the collective rights or sophisticated collective rights model, and rejection of the individual rights or standard model, as a basis for construction of the Second Amendment.

Your post confirms my original point. The government and supreme court reject the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment. Which part of this don't you understand?

Or should I be as big a pussy as you and write "Moderator" after each post where you have "strayed?"

You must admit it was the only way you were ever going to make a post on topic. Nothing to do with being a "pussy", it was just boring and stupid for everyone to have to witness your childish and pathetic behaviour in every post. For a month you have done nothing but post silly insults. I mention the moderators and you make two quick posts on topic instantly. Looks like we know how to stop your childish behaviour.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #948272 - 10/10/02 05:37 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Let's try this again and I'll type s-l-o-w-l-y so perhaps you can understand...

Evolving, think carefully before you repeat yourself five times again. Remember what happened last time you did it. You were too embarrassed to reply in that thread. I really don't want to expose your idiocy again.

Calm down and think before you post.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #948366 - 10/10/02 06:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Evolving, think carefully before you repeat yourself five times again. Remember what happened last time you did it. You were too embarrassed to reply in that thread. I really don't want to expose your idiocy again.



Thank you for proving my point Alex. Far from being embarassed, I find myself repeating requests because you avoid answering and I get nowhere. The only idiocy you are exposing is that manifested through your own feeble thought processes. You either have a serious reading comprehension problem or you are extremely intellectually dishonest. I keep asking you for a direct response, but it's apparent that you do not have the information, the intellect or other necessary resources to directly address the issue so you keep evading. Please try and get it right this time or display your evasions again so we can all see you put on your virtual dunce cap...

Please address the following directly to illustrate that the original intent of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinevatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Evolving]
    #948751 - 10/10/02 09:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #948810 - 10/10/02 09:59 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Far from being embarassed

I presume you still live at home with your parents where such childish displays of petulance are productive for you. I'm afraid you'll learn in the real world they don't work, and you'll DEFINATELY learn that they don't work with me.

Is this the behaviour you put your poor parents through?

"CAN I HAVE MY PUDDING"
"You can have it after you've eaten your dinner evolving"
CAN I HAVE MY PUDDING YES OR NO.."
You can have it after your dinner.
"I'LL SAY IT REALLY SLOWLY CAN I HAVE MY PUDDING YES OR NO"

etc etc



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: vatoloco]
    #948824 - 10/10/02 10:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

this guy makes me physically ill with loathing.

Thank god for that. I must be doing something right  :grin:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #948967 - 10/10/02 10:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

A bit of advice Alex, forget a career in stand-up, humor is not your forte. What's wrong, can't locate the facts to back up your assertions? Do you have to resort to feeble attempts at insults because you are unable to address my points? Will you ever, or are you going to keep responding with nothing until I stop asking? I know your debate techniques, they consist of ignoring facts, repeating lies, and evading direct questions and requests for information, 3rd rate insults, and trying to get the last word in no matter that your words evade the topic at hand.

Here, let me present it to you again. PLEASE, no cheating, no evasion and be honest with your response...

Please address the following directly to illustrate that the original intent of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #949320 - 10/10/02 12:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I give up. You're far too stupid to even put into words. It's not me who has a problem understanding. It obvious you're either brain dead or so close to it that there's little difference.

Aside from you being too stupid to understand the words... "the people" and the court decisions affirming it as an individual right, more recently than "Miller" which by the way said that cutoff shotguns had no use in the military and was by no means a definative second ammendment decision, answer this.... many if not most of your posts go on and on about how stupid our government is, yet here you go acting as if this one time they are suddenly filled with wisdom. Is it because you so desperatly want it to be correct? Or is it because you can't fathom a country where individual rights trump government wishes?

And if you think writing Moderator had anything to do with any of my responses, perhaps the person who follows you around reminding you to breathe and wipe your ass, since you more than likely are too stupid to remember to do both those on your own, can explain to you in simple enough terms that writing Moderator had nothing to do with my decision of what to write.

But despite being as stupid as you are, be glad of this, we bailed your sorry ass country out before, we'll do it again should the need arise.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/10/02 04:04 PM)


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #949564 - 10/10/02 01:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yes .... thank god for gun ownership!

Our constitution was created only to provide the poeple with a set of rights NOONE can take away from you. The forefathers created the constitution in mind for the people to have independence from AN ALL POWERFULL GOVERMENT. The goverment wants the people to believe that the constitution to ONLY helps criminals! Because if you believe this, youll WANT to take out the constitution, which is happening alot today.

I don't care how many sickos or crazyes start shooting people, ill always support every constitutional right except, PROHIBITION!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: johnnyfive]
    #949615 - 10/10/02 02:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Well said Johnny. The constitution was written to prevent what we see everyday, governmental intrusion on our lives. To protect ourselves, our forefathers made it clear that we have the right to arm ourselves.

Alex; somtimes the supreme court is just plain wrong.

"In 1883, the Supreme Court, once again, obstructed the path to equality. In the Civil Rights Cases, the Court struck down those provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1875 which entitled all persons to the full and equal enjoyment of public accomodations. The Court ruled that Congress did not have the authority under the 14th Amendment to enact such a law, explaining that the 14th Amendment was intended to right wrongful acts by states, not private individuals. Justice Harlan was the lone dissenter.
A decade later, the Supreme Court took another step backwards. In Plessy v. Ferguson , the Court found that a Louisiana statute requiring separate intrastate railcars for the white and colored races neither abridged the privileges or immunities of the colored man, nor deprived him of the equal protection of the laws under the 14th Amendment. This decision legitimized the segregation of American society under the "Separate but Equal" doctrine.

Justice Harlan, again the lone dissenter, argued that the Constitution was color-blind. He regretted the Court's conclusion that states may regulate the enjoyment by citizens of their civil rights based solely on race. He also predicted, "In my opinion, the judgment this day rendered will, in time, prove to be quite as pernicious as the decision made by this tribunal in the Dred Scott Case."

"

It remains to "we the people" to live up to the historical requirements of our forefathers. To act in a responsible manner toward society and in return, society should act in a responsible manner to me. Defend yourself and your neighbors from those that would harm them. Remove all laws that restrict the freedoms of responsible people to choose for themselves how they will live.

While I abhor the cowardly acts recently perpetrated on innocent civilians I DO NOT blame these actions on an inanimate object; these actions are those of a twisted person that must be caught. I would suggest arming everyone and be damn quick about it; consider this scenario. Shot rings out, person next to you drops dead, you pull out your own gun, as well as the 15 people standing next to you. YOu, all, track the shooter and blow his balls off; problem solved and guns are not the issue. What is the issue is whether or not citizens will be allowed to protect themselves and their neighbors.


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Anonymous

Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: mr freedom]
    #949944 - 10/10/02 05:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

A couple quotes I posted in another forum, which seem more applicable here, for your viewing pleasure:

?This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!? - Adolph Hitler, April 15, 1935

?Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the state.? - Heinrich Himmler

?They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.? - Benjamin Franklin


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Anonymous

Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Anonymous]
    #949957 - 10/10/02 05:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Great Britain, which has all but outlawed guns, has one of the highest crime rates in... not only western countries... but the world. Give up your right to defend yourself, and you give up your right to life.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #951121 - 10/10/02 09:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

A bit of advice Alex, forget a career in stand-up, humor is not your forte. What's wrong, can't locate the facts to back up your assertions?

You're not a Bill Hicks man are you evolving. Carrot-top more your style I see.

As I've pointed out there is no court in the land who will support the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment. It isn't "my assertion" - it's common law. What is your difficulty in understanding this?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #951185 - 10/10/02 10:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

writing Moderator had nothing to do with my decision of what to write.

Yeah, it was all just coincidence wasn't it. You write nothing on topic for a month, then I mention the moderator and you write two posts on topic in succession.

Fear clearly concentrates your mind.

btw, quick word of advice - probably best not to brag about how much you enjoy cluttering up the board with idiotic one-line off topic posts.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #951519 - 10/11/02 12:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Believe what you want Albie, a quick search of my posts will bear me out. But since you don't take the time to read I don't imagine you'll bother. Keep on being a legend in your own mind if that's what gets you off.

Funny how you still haven't answered Evolvings post.... but then, we knew you had neither the brains or the balls.

Frankly... the whole point of responding to your posts was to try and encourage you to think. Since you appear to be incapable of that simplest of functions I have no wish to waste any more of my time.

As a parting word, I did provide you with cases showing courts that have backed the "people" having the right to gun ownership. All since Miller, which obviously you haven't read. Since they don't match the opinion you have tucked away in that little pea brain of yours you'll never even bother to check them but that's OK. I mean, you've made it this far without an original thought... why start now? After all, coming from a country that can't defend itself on its own, and where personal self defense gets you a stiffer jail term than the one you're defending yourself against, what else could we have expected?

Normally I don't call people here "dumb shits", but in your case I will.

Oh No!!! Moderators!!! I hurt Als feelings! Want to spank me?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/11/02 12:55 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #951740 - 10/11/02 04:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I have no wish to waste any more of my time.

Thank god for that. You have been wasting everybodys time.

All since Miller, which obviously you haven't read.

Utter lying nonsense. There is no federal court that has EVER backed the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment. The government and supreme court consider the argument so exhaustivley proved against the NRA that they do not even see any point in considering it anymore. It has been proven time and time again for the last 100 years that the second amendment does NOT provide citizens the right to own guns. This is beyond doubt.

Moderators!!! I hurt Als feelings! Want to spank me?

You've never hurt anyones feelings, just wasted board bandwidth. Hopefully you will live up to your word and shut up now.

Cheers.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #952104 - 10/11/02 07:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

As I've pointed out there is no court in the land who will support the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment.



As luvdeshrooms pointed out you are wrong.

In reply to:

It isn't "my assertion" - it's common law. What is your difficulty in understanding this?



Still unable to respond to my points, eh? The constitution is not a common law document, it is the charter of the U.S. government. It states specifically what powers are delegated to the federal government and to what branches.

Are you too naive to see the foolishness of citing government edicts for it's re-interpretation of the government's charter? Have you no sense of history and the inertial tendency of all governments to take power from their citizens? When a government changes the interpretation of it's charter to benefit the government's hold on power, don't you find that in the least bit alarming? It is foolish and naive rationalizations such as your own which allow people such as Adolph Hitler to legally seize power. Quit hiding behind the skirts of those who would abrogate our rights and provide evidence as I requested. What is your difficulty understanding my request? Is English not you primary language? Here I'll try it again so we can all see how a simple little mind cannot comprehend a simple request...

Please address the following directly to illustrate that the original intent of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.



--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #952271 - 10/11/02 08:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

As luvdeshrooms pointed out you are wrong.

:grin:

Yep, you get your facts from luvdem. Some idiot on a shroom board. I'll get mine from the supreme court and every legal expert who has studied this for the last 100 years.

Still unable to respond to my points, eh?

What points?  The courts and the government say you are wrong, you say you are right. What is there to argue?

Have you no sense of history and the inertial tendency of all governments to take power from their citizens?

By this I presume you are finally admitting the government and courts don't agree with the NRA.

Here's a little info for you to read, it's a little more reliable than luvdem:

The best indication of what any law, including a Constitutional provision, means, is what the courts say it means. Our federal courts, including the Supreme Court, have spoken plainly and unanimously on the meaning of the Second Amendment. It is astonishing that no-one knows this. Even most books on either side of the issue fail to cover court decisions. The legal meaning of the Second Amendment tends to get lost in the hype. The pro-gun forces especially would like to ignore that there is any contemporary jurisprudence on the topic. Most NRA members probably don't know that the organization always bases its litigation on constitutional grounds such as overbreadth and vagueness--it never argues that a gun control law offends the Second Amendment, because it knows that, under the present state of the law, it would lose.

Before I tell you what the courts have said, lets dispose of another issue. Pro-gun tracts exhaustively examine-- sometimes for hundreds of pages--statements made by figures such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, George Washington, Tom Paine, etc. Assuming for the sake of argument that some of the Founders solidly believed in an individual right to bear arms against an oppressive government--it may be so--why does constitutional analysis not stop at the Founders' intentions?

The answer is quite simple: this is not the way American law works. Though there are conservative thinkers, including some law professors, who think original intent is the only thing that counts, they are a tiny minority in a crowd of lawyers, politicians, judges and citizens who think that the Constitution is a living document. Legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin put it best: the Constitution is a story being written collectively by each generation of judges. Each judge has a responsibility to respect the characters and plot left her by her predecessors, but brings the story up to date in terms of plot and character development. This is how we interpret the First, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments; freedom of speech, as in the recent CDA decision, is constantly being extended to media of which the Founders never dreamed.

Pro-gun forces certainly believe that 20th century Second Amendment jurisprudence is dead wrong, just as I believe that court decisions upholding the constitutionality of the Communications Act of 1934 are dead wrong. What we are both saying is that the courts, in a given instance, wrote the wrong story. We are entitled to our opinions. The perniciousness of the pro-gun forces, particularly the NRA, is not that they disagree with the courts, but that they lie to their members and to the public about what the law says. The success of the NRA and similar organizations in their disinformation campaign is evident in the fact that so many otherwise reasonable citizens believe that the Second Amendment, despite its reference to the militia, guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms. No-one knows that the highest federal courts in the land have consistently held that the Second Amendment is only a right held by the states against the federal government.




--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #952341 - 10/11/02 08:50 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Evolving wrote:
"Still unable to respond to my points, eh?"

Alex123 wrote:
"What points?"

You have got to be the most ignorant person I have ever encountered. Can't you read? Again, here it is....

Please address the following directly to illustrate that the original intent of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.


You see the bolded statements above? Those are in English, they are specific. Why can't you address them directly, is that extra chromosome getting in the way?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #952744 - 10/11/02 11:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You have got to be the most ignorant person I have ever encountered.

Thank you dear. The mushrooms really have done you a lot of good havn't they.

Can't you read?

Are you completly stupid? Did you read the above post that explained in clear language why your question was irrelevant? Or did you just skip over it in your haste to write it again? Your moronic "question" is completly irrelevant to reality . Can you understand that idiot? The law is clear that the second amendment does not support individual gun ownership. Indulging your NRA masturbatory fantasies isn't going to change that.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #952752 - 10/11/02 11:15 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

As you didn't bother to read it last time, here it is again:

The best indication of what any law, including a Constitutional provision, means, is what the courts say it means. Our federal courts, including the Supreme Court, have spoken plainly and unanimously on the meaning of the Second Amendment. It is astonishing that no-one knows this. Even most books on either side of the issue fail to cover court decisions. The legal meaning of the Second Amendment tends to get lost in the hype. The pro-gun forces especially would like to ignore that there is any contemporary jurisprudence on the topic. Most NRA members probably don't know that the organization always bases its litigation on constitutional grounds such as overbreadth and vagueness--it never argues that a gun control law offends the Second Amendment, because it knows that, under the present state of the law, it would lose.

Before I tell you what the courts have said, lets dispose of another issue. Pro-gun tracts exhaustively examine-- sometimes for hundreds of pages--statements made by figures such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, George Washington, Tom Paine, etc. Assuming for the sake of argument that some of the Founders solidly believed in an individual right to bear arms against an oppressive government--it may be so--why does constitutional analysis not stop at the Founders' intentions?

The answer is quite simple: this is not the way American law works. Though there are conservative thinkers, including some law professors, who think original intent is the only thing that counts, they are a tiny minority in a crowd of lawyers, politicians, judges and citizens who think that the Constitution is a living document. Legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin put it best: the Constitution is a story being written collectively by each generation of judges. Each judge has a responsibility to respect the characters and plot left her by her predecessors, but brings the story up to date in terms of plot and character development. This is how we interpret the First, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments; freedom of speech, as in the recent CDA decision, is constantly being extended to media of which the Founders never dreamed.

Pro-gun forces certainly believe that 20th century Second Amendment jurisprudence is dead wrong, just as I believe that court decisions upholding the constitutionality of the Communications Act of 1934 are dead wrong. What we are both saying is that the courts, in a given instance, wrote the wrong story. We are entitled to our opinions. The perniciousness of the pro-gun forces, particularly the NRA, is not that they disagree with the courts, but that they lie to their members and to the public about what the law says. The success of the NRA and similar organizations in their disinformation campaign is evident in the fact that so many otherwise reasonable citizens believe that the Second Amendment, despite its reference to the militia, guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms. No-one knows that the highest federal courts in the land have consistently held that the Second Amendment is only a right held by the states against the federal government.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #952875 - 10/11/02 05:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Are you completly stupid? Did you read the above post that explained in clear language why your question was irrelevant? Or did you just skip over it in your haste to write it again? Your moronic "question" is completly irrelevant to reality . Can you understand that idiot? The law is clear that the second amendment does not support individual gun ownership. Indulging your NRA masturbatory fantasies isn't going to change that.



What's the matter Alex, got caught with your pants down? Unable to provide a direct response? ARE YOU EVER ABLE TO PROVIDE A DIRECT RESPONSE? Are you that unintelligent that you don't know the meaning of my request?

In typical fashion, you refuse to address the issue someone else brings up and then ask a question expecting the other person to drop their query. Alex, you are so transparent that a blind man could see through you.

I read what you cut and pasted from your socialist sources, that in no way provides a response to my original request. Apparently you are so simple minded as to think your evasions are an answer? They are not.

You have not given as direct response to my request because you cannot, you do not have the facts that are required. Do some research Alex, and get back to us with a direct response, your dunce cap is getting larger... or is it that your brain is shrinking?

Please address the following directly to illustrate that the original intent of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.



--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #952914 - 10/11/02 05:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Here it is again. This time READ IT. You're making yourself look even more stupid than usual (and that's going some!)

The best indication of what any law, including a Constitutional provision, means, is what the courts say it means. Our federal courts, including the Supreme Court, have spoken plainly and unanimously on the meaning of the Second Amendment. It is astonishing that no-one knows this. Even most books on either side of the issue fail to cover court decisions. The legal meaning of the Second Amendment tends to get lost in the hype. The pro-gun forces especially would like to ignore that there is any contemporary jurisprudence on the topic. Most NRA members probably don't know that the organization always bases its litigation on constitutional grounds such as overbreadth and vagueness--it never argues that a gun control law offends the Second Amendment, because it knows that, under the present state of the law, it would lose.

Before I tell you what the courts have said, lets dispose of another issue. Pro-gun tracts exhaustively examine-- sometimes for hundreds of pages--statements made by figures such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, George Washington, Tom Paine, etc. Assuming for the sake of argument that some of the Founders solidly believed in an individual right to bear arms against an oppressive government--it may be so--why does constitutional analysis not stop at the Founders' intentions?

The answer is quite simple: this is not the way American law works. Though there are conservative thinkers, including some law professors, who think original intent is the only thing that counts, they are a tiny minority in a crowd of lawyers, politicians, judges and citizens who think that the Constitution is a living document. Legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin put it best: the Constitution is a story being written collectively by each generation of judges. Each judge has a responsibility to respect the characters and plot left her by her predecessors, but brings the story up to date in terms of plot and character development. This is how we interpret the First, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments; freedom of speech, as in the recent CDA decision, is constantly being extended to media of which the Founders never dreamed.

Pro-gun forces certainly believe that 20th century Second Amendment jurisprudence is dead wrong, just as I believe that court decisions upholding the constitutionality of the Communications Act of 1934 are dead wrong. What we are both saying is that the courts, in a given instance, wrote the wrong story. We are entitled to our opinions. The perniciousness of the pro-gun forces, particularly the NRA, is not that they disagree with the courts, but that they lie to their members and to the public about what the law says. The success of the NRA and similar organizations in their disinformation campaign is evident in the fact that so many otherwise reasonable citizens believe that the Second Amendment, despite its reference to the militia, guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms. No-one knows that the highest federal courts in the land have consistently held that the Second Amendment is only a right held by the states against the federal government.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #952924 - 10/11/02 05:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

get back to us

"Us?"

Is that you and that little mouse in your pocket?  :grin:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #952962 - 10/11/02 06:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Reading comprehension, look at the following phrase I used, "Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers." Alex, you have provided nothing, absolutely nothing from the founders of this country that support your contention. Heresay doesn't count. Some key words for you to mull over, "quotes," "original intent."

Now, maybe you should take off that dunce cap, it appears that it's too tight on your little skull and you're not getting proper blood flow to that mass of mush you call a brain. Try again, this time give the proper answer.

Please address the following directly to illustrate that the original intent of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:
Please provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
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Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #952992 - 10/11/02 06:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In referance to the sniper killings, (although i think there something strange about this case, but im not going to get in to that).

I can tell you why everything is going to shit; how and why people have no moral.

Prohibition

"If we can take a non-violent citizen and turn him in to a violent criminal, we can certainly take a criminal and turn him in to a terrorist" - bill maher

What this referes to is that the sorce of the corruption is that you take something that isn't inherinty a crime, and turn it in to a crime, and with time this can corrupt, and demoralize the people. Why do you think we ended alcohol prohibition? The goverment couldn't handle the explosion in crime. There are some other things that play in this too, but too much to type!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


Edited by johnnyfive (10/11/02 06:25 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #954227 - 10/12/02 03:15 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

nothing from the founders of this country that support your contention.

Once again, it isn't "my contention". It is the contention of the government, the supreme court and every legal expert for the last 100 years.

Please tell me what relevance your question has to anything and why time should be wasted addressing it.

Once again, try and comprehend:

The best indication of what any law, including a Constitutional provision, means, is what the courts say it means. Our federal courts, including the Supreme Court, have spoken plainly and unanimously on the meaning of the Second Amendment. It is astonishing that no-one knows this. Even most books on either side of the issue fail to cover court decisions. The legal meaning of the Second Amendment tends to get lost in the hype. The pro-gun forces especially would like to ignore that there is any contemporary jurisprudence on the topic. Most NRA members probably don't know that the organization always bases its litigation on constitutional grounds such as overbreadth and vagueness--it never argues that a gun control law offends the Second Amendment, because it knows that, under the present state of the law, it would lose.

Before I tell you what the courts have said, lets dispose of another issue. Pro-gun tracts exhaustively examine-- sometimes for hundreds of pages--statements made by figures such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, George Washington, Tom Paine, etc. Assuming for the sake of argument that some of the Founders solidly believed in an individual right to bear arms against an oppressive government--it may be so--why does constitutional analysis not stop at the Founders' intentions?

The answer is quite simple: this is not the way American law works. Though there are conservative thinkers, including some law professors, who think original intent is the only thing that counts, they are a tiny minority in a crowd of lawyers, politicians, judges and citizens who think that the Constitution is a living document. Legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin put it best: the Constitution is a story being written collectively by each generation of judges. Each judge has a responsibility to respect the characters and plot left her by her predecessors, but brings the story up to date in terms of plot and character development. This is how we interpret the First, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments; freedom of speech, as in the recent CDA decision, is constantly being extended to media of which the Founders never dreamed.

Pro-gun forces certainly believe that 20th century Second Amendment jurisprudence is dead wrong, just as I believe that court decisions upholding the constitutionality of the Communications Act of 1934 are dead wrong. What we are both saying is that the courts, in a given instance, wrote the wrong story. We are entitled to our opinions. The perniciousness of the pro-gun forces, particularly the NRA, is not that they disagree with the courts, but that they lie to their members and to the public about what the law says. The success of the NRA and similar organizations in their disinformation campaign is evident in the fact that so many otherwise reasonable citizens believe that the Second Amendment, despite its reference to the militia, guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms. No-one knows that the highest federal courts in the land have consistently held that the Second Amendment is only a right held by the states against the federal government.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #956702 - 10/13/02 12:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex, you get an 'F' in reading comprehension. Your schooling has failed you.

Here, I'll break it down for you. Try to put the pieces together and quit dodging.

Please address the following directly...

to illustrate that the original intent...

of the founders of the United States, the authors of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ratifiers of the Constitution agree with your interpretation of the Second Amendment:

Please provide any quotes (and your sources)...

from the founding fathers, the people who wrote and signed the constitution...

as to their intentions and the purpose of the 2nd amendment.

Also provide any quotes (and your sources) from the founding fathers...

as to the meaning of the term 'militia' as they used it in the 2nd amendment.


If you cannot provide the information that I have explicitly requested, you will have demonstrated that we should remove internet access from all special education classes. Now empty out your drool bucket and ask the facilitator for some help.... go on... don't be afraid, they're only facts that I am asking for. Do you know what facts are? Ask the nice lady sitting at the desk...

No Alex, not evasions...

No Alex, not hearsay...

No Alex, not opinion...

No Alex, not regurgiated equivocations...

that's right my little leftists robot, FACTS, QUOTES, FROM THE SOURCE...

GET IT?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/13/02 01:20 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #956767 - 10/13/02 01:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know where you get your patience dealing with the mentally challenged. Alex is obviously incompetent and as such unable to understand even the most simple of questions. Hell, he can't even comprehend a word as easy to understand as "people". Even his ability to look up court decisions is missing. Were it not so he would have looked up some that were posted for him. I wonder if his parents are as mentally challenged as he seems to be?

Good luck Evolving, perhaps he'll answer some day. I doubt it though as then he'd have to admit that he's wrong.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #957175 - 10/13/02 04:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Evolving, you need to go out and get laid man. Don't take yourself so seriously.

You too luvdem.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #958010 - 10/13/02 10:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Didn't timothy McViegh bomb the federal building cus he was pissed that the goverment is pushing more and more gun control?


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: johnnyfive]
    #958179 - 10/13/02 11:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Actually his beef had to do with the murder of innocent women and children who didn't subscribe to one of the government approved religions. (They were a small church of Seventh Day Adventists)

But ya' know, that episode just goes to show you that the government is the only group to be trusted with firearms, who else could have wiped those freaks out?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #960944 - 10/14/02 10:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, I read it but not the three times you posted it. My reading comprehension seems to be greater than yours so it was not neccesary.

In all of your agruments, against the definition of the terms in the second amendment, and your subsequent attempts at furthering your stance with the supreme courts decisions, you failed, miserably I might add, to examine the one, fundamental, fact that all "legal experts" fail to recognize.

In this country, any law can be ignored if the jury says so. We have trial by jury for a reason, to have a hammer to knock in the heads of those that would eliminate our right to defend ourselves. At any time, and it has occured in the past in this nation, a jury may simple let a defendant go; even if that defendant is guilty as hell.

If "we the people" decide that gun laws are becoming rediculous to the extreme it only remains to bring the case before the people and settle it there. The supreme court can stuff it at that point; the PEOPLE have spoken.


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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Xlea321]
    #963366 - 10/15/02 04:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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Offlineuno
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: vatoloco]
    #965512 - 10/16/02 11:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

you need
to get laid by the dallas cheerleading
squad.




I believe I am also in need of this. Well maybe not need, but want.


--------------------
- uno


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Anonymous

Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Evolving]
    #966196 - 10/16/02 04:44 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, I can't believe I read the whole thing. *burp*  'cuse me.

Evolving, you are intelligent and your point(s) are clear.  Although I can understand your committment to discuss this at length I do not spend my precious time arguing with those who cannot or will not understand a simple premise.  This is why certain members and I do not have any interchanges.

As far as the issue itself is concerned I do not have to ask any government by its Constitution or otherwise if or how I may defend myself.  I have that right merely by being alive.

Would you or luvdemshrooms give up your guns if a Constitutional amendment was passed?  I wouldn't.  There are some things that are worth dying for and freedom is one of them.

I will tell you plainly that the day a government agent knocks on my door to register or take my weapons one of us will die.  Either one is fine by me.

In the meantime elections are upon us.  Do you know the stance each holds with respect to self-defense?  If not, you know what to do.

I know my view is considered unpopular in the eyes of some but I really do not care what others think when it comes to the protection of the ones I love or my God-given right to self protection.

I have several signs posted on the outside of my house that say:

THE OWNER OF THIS PROPERTY IS ARMED! and prepared to protect life, liberty, and property from criminal attack There is nothing inside worth risking your life for.

Funny, but I live in a bad area and never had a problem.  I wonder how that could be. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #966210 - 10/16/02 04:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

luvdemshrooms,

Most of what I said to Evolving applies to you as well except that you and I have less stomach for arguing with those who cannot change their opinions.

I also hope that you as well know which candidates are Pro-Gun. Don't believe everything the NRA says about candidates. They are a compromise institution. They successfully killed HB 224 in Ohio which was Vermont style concealed carry.

Cheers,


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: ]
    #966362 - 10/16/02 05:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

for arguing with those who cannot change their opinions.

Oh brother. Just have the balls to say you don't like me and get it over with. I really won't mind.

Certain kinds of very closed-minded far right-wingers don't tend to get along with me. It doesn't offend me, I'm proud of it. Like Bill Hicks said - he preferred playing to groups of ignorant hillbillies rather than preaching to the converted.

(btw, it's nothing to do with my opinion, it's simply what the supreme court have said for the last 150 years. But don't let the truth get in the way of you and your NRA pals)


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Xlea321]
    #966475 - 10/16/02 06:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i know someone working on what stands to be the defimitive work researching gun violence data.... i can tell u this already.... 

there is a 88% correlation between child/young adult gun violence and perscription drugs used for adhd and other "so called" problems that all of a sudden become medical condotions once a drug is discovered to have an effect on a particular brain chemical... ssri?s are also associated with this problem... i believe this man because when he has presented papers similar to what he?s putting together here, he will include in upwards of 200 pages of footnote?s to sources used ...

I WILL KEEP U POSTED AND GIVE YOU THE LINK INFO WHEN IT?S AVAILABLE...

canada has more guns per capita yet has less crime.... they do not give these drugs to their children in that country...

i?m law abiding, have no police record, love my country, help my family friends and neighbors.... and understand my rights and accept responsibility for protecting what is mine... this is a dangerous world we now find ourselves in .... i?m a competant shot and know my skill level is high enough to know i can use my gun effectively...

some people think if u look at a gun the wrong way it will up and shoot u.... what is wrong with these people.... they allow their irrational fear and misunderstanding of issues to drive them to insist that they know what is best for me... hmmmm

nope...


  :laugh:

  :smirk:

Anni  :wink:



 


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Anonymous]
    #975968 - 10/20/02 02:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

(sigh) i JUST GOT JACKED!

Some fucker just jacked me with a gun for 5 grams of weed!!!!!!

lol... and i still support the 2nd amendment!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleVSOPXO
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: johnnyfive]
    #975976 - 10/20/02 02:48 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

All I know is that in TN we will have guns at least for the rest of my life. There's no way they could take all TN's guns :grin: besides,none of the judges or polotician's here would want to stop toting their guns 


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: johnnyfive]
    #976192 - 10/20/02 04:07 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

johnny, are you serious? Thats fucked up man..scary shit?

When I was 9 years old I had experienced an arm-robbery which almost killed both my parents and myself. They were looking for a large quantity of pot, they had the wrong house.

It fucked me up for a good 5 years, being so young and seeing my parents both in a pool of blood at 3 AM on a warm summer night is not the most glorious of all memories....guns have the power to kill, I really do not support guns, because they are used 99% of the time with people who take advantage of them and use them in the wrong ways...

Many people do not experience near-death experiences with the presence of guns.

I think skeet shooting and the fact of archery and precision on a target is cool, but not on living things. If your gonna kill it, make something to kill it or use your own manpower. Guns are cheap ! :mad:


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: angryshroom]
    #976217 - 10/20/02 04:18 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Well, excuse my "ignorance", but I have personally never really met or talked with someone who owned guns...but...

What exactly is the point of owning a rifle? I mean, Ok I understand for self defense purposes, but, do you guys get a high from having the power of owning a gun and the ability to KILL, and take an animals life away...contributing to the mass of destruction us humans do to this earth?

I am biased most likely because I am a vegetarian. I would eat meat if I knew that I could handle the fact that I personally could KILL the animal myself and then eat it, but I couldnt. Things are always pre-packaged, killed already...it makes it much easier to eat and cook up without the fact that you aren't seeing the dead face of the carcass at the market. Plus, of course I feel guilty for taking an animals life away. (hell, I feel guilty for taking a plants life away). :frown:

Im not trying to flame anyone, but, I really just do not understand the whole reason in owning a gun. I grew up in Hawaii, where surfing and peace and pretty much happiness was easy to come by. Lots of papyas to pick instead of cows :smile:


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: angryshroom]
    #976427 - 10/20/02 08:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

because they are used 99% of the time with people who take advantage of them and use them in the wrong ways...



Completely incorrect. More guns are used each year in the prevention of crime and for self defense. The most commonly used murder weapon is the hands. Would you feel better had your parents been stabbed or nearly beaten to death? How about if they had been clubbed with a baseball bat? Would you then think knives or bats shouldn't be owned or possesed?

In reply to:

Im not trying to flame anyone, but, I really just do not understand the whole reason in owning a gun.



They are fun. They are legal. It's our constitutional right.

What's the point of owning a powerful car? What's the point of owning a private plane? Shall I go on?

It doesn't matter in the slightest if you see a point. What matters is the gun owners see a point. How many things do you own that mean something to you but others would find completely useless? Should you not be able to own those things?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/20/02 08:11 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: angryshroom]
    #976700 - 10/20/02 12:03 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

some people believe that if u stare at a gun the wrong way it will shoot u on it?s own... it?s tough that jackoffs entered ur home like that... but if weed were controlled and distributed like alcohol is, it would not have happened...

kids using guns violently can be directly tied to behavior medication whose side effects are suicidal and homicidal tendencies... i?ll use a figure of 3,000,000 children on ssri?s or similar compounds... the pdr?s will say .01% of the people taking these meds will be affected in a way to cause them to plunge a knife into a sibling while eating dinner... or walking into ur school and shooting other kids u feel dissed u... that would be 30,000 child figthting these urges to act out in an irrational way... this did not happen when i was growing up ...

we have asswipes flying planes into our buildings and the possibility of war on american soil is more a reality now then ever before... it will not surprise me, although i?ll be deeply saddened if it does come to pass, when people begin boarding our buses with bombs strapped to the bodies...  i accept responsibility for myself and decline to wait for the police (or military) to come to help me out... our leaders are more concerned about being reelected then they are in our saftey.... if u don?t believe me listen to the floor and senate hearings transcripts that gave war power authority to the president... hmmmm when the shit hits the fan u can bet they will not be on the streets with us... this issue is so complicated i may have made a mistake leaving it in this post... but fuck it... i?ll leave it in for further debate...

i understand there is a penalty if i use my guns to commit a crime... i will never do anything to anyone who hasn?t done anything to me... if u don?t like handguns... it?s ur right... but until the world is at peace, i will stand on the side of caution...

i can appreciate wher ur coming from... i believe another world is possible, but there will be pain while on that path... the world is a ghetto at this point in time...

johnnyfive... i got ur pm... ur lucky bro... i?m glad it all blew over and everything is fine... take care ....



  :shocked:     


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: Anonymous]
    #976792 - 10/20/02 12:44 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I support the second amendment because, i would never like to see any right, vanish. Yes true, alot of people do use them wrong, but its only the cause.

hehe, i blame weed prohibition for that one. If it was legal i could call the cops on his ass, but since it isn't, ill just have to beat his ass, catch his ass by surprise one day! :grin:


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #977016 - 10/20/02 02:42 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Well yes, I do understand how it is a right to own stuff in our "free world" and what not. Its just such a scary thing. We aren't going to get closer to peace with the usage of guns.

I mean, people could use their cars to run people over and kill just as much as somone with a gun. Im sure you hear about more murders by guns than you do with drunk driving incidents.

What do you guys feel about having gun licenses? Wouldnt that seem right? I mean, you wouldn't want a mentally unstable person (or a senile grandma) driving a car around. Should be a license, to make sure you are able and truthful to own a gun. Im sure there will be soooo many ways around it, but, putting people in jail for the right reasons, for using a gun in the wrong way illegally would be better than nothing.

I wish guns were never invented...:( Stick to bow and arrow, that shits fun heh, and not so loud!!! :grin:


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: angryshroom]
    #977235 - 10/20/02 04:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Are drugs legal?

Have drug laws prevented you from getting drugs?

Do you think that for some reason if there were more than the 14000+/- guns laws already on the books, that it would make any difference at all? Would you prefer to live in a country where criminals were the only ones to have guns? Do you think for a moment that the same criminals would suddenly say... Oh my! Guns are illegal now. (Or we need licenses) Lets turn all our guns in as good citizens? (Or lets get licenses)

I mean really. How do you people come up with this crap?

And are you aware that many states already tack more jail time on to the sentance when a crime is commited with a gun?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/20/02 04:14 PM)


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #977291 - 10/20/02 05:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Bah nevermind.



Edited by angryshroom (10/20/02 05:06 PM)


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: angryshroom]
    #977298 - 10/20/02 05:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I guess I really wont argue with it if it really doesn't pertain to me..

Personally, I'd like to stay away from guns or anything for that matter that has the power to kill.

Make love maaaaaaaan....Not wwwwwaar mannnn... :smile: hehe


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: angryshroom]
    #977942 - 10/20/02 10:05 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Make love 



I won't argue with that!  :smile:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #978508 - 10/21/02 01:54 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Have drug laws prevented you from getting drugs?

Yep.


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: akjakj]
    #978814 - 10/21/02 05:47 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Then obviously you aren't looking in the right place. There is no shortage of most drugs in most places.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #979362 - 10/21/02 10:19 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I havent seen acid for years... :frown:



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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #979491 - 10/21/02 11:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Then obviously you aren't looking in the right place.

You saying you can lay your hands on 100% pure mescaline, LSD, MDMA, STP, K, opium, heroin, cocaine any time you want?

And not only that but that it's easier and cheaper than if you could walk down the street, go into a store and pick out everything you wanted?

You must be pretty lucky. Most people arn't in that situation.


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: akjakj]
    #980082 - 10/21/02 04:40 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Wouldn't that be nice if those kinds of drugs were legal? Not just because it would be easier to get, but, it would be cheaper, and there wouldnt be as many people on the streets....

maybe. ?


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: akjakj]
    #980127 - 10/21/02 04:54 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Did teh two of you miss this.... "There is no shortage of most drugs in most places. "?

Do you not understand the meaning of "most"?

YTes I can grab most of those. Are they as cheap as if they were legal? Of course not but where did I say they were?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #980167 - 10/21/02 05:08 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

YTes I can grab most of those

You can lay your hands on 100% pure MDMA, heroin, coke, mescaline, LSD and opium?

Bullshit.


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: akjakj]
    #980178 - 10/21/02 05:14 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I missed the 100% pure part. Sorry but most of your list is not hard to come by. Maybe I just know the right (or wrong, depending on your viewpoint) type of people.

And I never claimed 100% pure. Re-read what I said. If you can find where I say I can get 100% pure let me know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Thank god for gun ownership... [Re: angryshroom]
    #981690 - 10/22/02 02:47 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Angryshroom. The only problem with the whole gun license thing is the fact that EVERY country that has done gun license and gun registration has taken them away from the people afterwards. England, India, China, Australia, ect ect ect. Whenever you buy a gun in America there is an automatic background check that checks to see if you are fucked up in the head or have been in prison. Now the can improve that system just fine ( infact they just automated it to make it faster ), but when you start down the license road it will never stop. Just look at austrailia. They are actually thinking about outlawing swords there.

Sorry to hear about your parents that is horible. I had a gun pointed at me before and it is frightening. If you ever have then need and are in the Dallas area I will gladly teach you how to shoot and safely.


--------------------
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.
---Galileo


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