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OfflineRoseM
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Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: gun control [Re: wingnutx]
    #1978115 - 10/04/03 02:54 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Unless they are just showing you their knife.

"Hey! You! Look at my cool knife!"

BLAM!

I don't know about everybody else, but, in my life, I've had more knives shown to me than pulled on me.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,282
Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1978123 - 10/04/03 02:57 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

obviously. don't try showing cops your neat new knife, though

hey, alliteration :smile:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: wingnutx]
    #1978127 - 10/04/03 02:58 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Officer, Help! Come here! My knife won't work!

BLAMMO!


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1978655 - 10/04/03 11:06 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Have any of you gun advocates used your gun to save a life (At home in America, not at war)?

i haven't. different studies have found that guns are used defensively in the US between 800,000 and 2.5 million times a year. the most recent studies placed the number at 2 million times a year.

How Often Are Guns Used In Self Defense?

Have any of you advocates seen someone hurt or killed by a gun (OK... now war can count)?

does seeing video recordings count?

I don't know. All this gun talk is driving me crazy. Freedom! The right to bear arms... bla... bla... bla...

why should peaceful, law-abiding citizens be disarmed?

Why don't Americans have hash bars ? Why can't Americans grow psylocybes ? Why no acid or extacy ?

irrelevant to the discussion.

there's more logic behind gun control than drug control.

no there isn't. they both seek to prohibit actions which harm no-one. the act of owning a gun, or using drugs, are both victimless crimes.

in the case of drug restrictions, your right to get stoned is violated.
in the case of gun restrictions, your right to defend your own life is violated.

Guns have been used to kill innocent victims.

by criminals. let's talk about gun homocides for a minute... here are some stats about the people who are out there killing people:

-81% of all homicide defendants have at least one arrest on their record.
-66% have two or more arrests.
-67% have at least one felony arrest.
-56% have two or more felony arrests.
-70% have at least one conviction.
-54% have at least one felony conviction.

U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Statistics

meanwhile, the average jail time for rape is something like 4 years and average jail time for murder is something like 6 or 7 years.

here's a novel idea: instead of trying to reduce crime by banning gun ownership by law-abiding citizens (which will not work anyway), we crack down on crime by enforcing extremely tough measures against gun possession by ex-cons, and give people more time than 7 years for murder when they kill someone.

Guns are similar to cigarettes. They smoke, they kill and they sometimes claim innocent victims. If I can step outside and have a smoke, can't we all give up our semi automatic handguns and automatic weapons?

this is an extremely poor analogy. let's say you're simply carrying a pack of cigarettes inside, and not smoking them (analogous to carrying a weapon and not shooting people)... what's wrong with that?

For those of you that insist on keeping guns for protection, can I suggest some Karate classes?

fists are useless against an armed attacker.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1978799 - 10/04/03 01:15 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

why should peaceful, law-abiding citizens be disarmed?

Perhaps because any peaceful law abiding citizen can be transformed into a violent lunatic after a few bottles of beer? I'd rather have someone coming at me with his fists than firing a pistol at me.

no there isn't. they both seek to prohibit actions which harm no-one. the act of owning a gun, or using drugs, are both victimless crimes.

I've no problem with the act of owning a gun, it's the act of someone firing bullets at me I take exception to. If they're happy to own a gun with no bullets that's fine - they can own as many guns as they want.

in the case of gun restrictions, your right to defend your own life is violated.

No it isn't. Why stop at guns? What if your assailant comes at you with a grenade launcher and your .38 is useless? Would you support the right of everyone to own a grenade launcher? Or is preventing this a violation of your right to defend your life?

And the last thing I need is some asshole pulling out his .38 in blind panic and accidentally putting 6 bullets into my loved ones as he attempts to "defend his life" from his assailant. What if firing bullets to defend your life puts an innocent passersby right to life at risk? (btw how does that fit in with libertarian philosophy?)


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1978939 - 10/04/03 02:20 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Perhaps because any peaceful law abiding citizen can be transformed into a violent lunatic after a few bottles of beer? I'd rather have someone coming at me with his fists than firing a pistol at me.

citing hypothetical anecdotes statistically proven to be extremely rare does little for your argument.

have a read...

"Contrary to myth and misrepresentation, most murders are not committed by previously law-abiding citizens either going berserk, or because a gun was handy during a moment of uncontrollable rage: suddenly "blow-away" their spouse, friend, neighbor, acquaintance, or all four.

Studies conducted at both the local and national level indicate the overwhelming majority of murders are committed by people with previous criminal records. Even a significant percentage of homicide victims themselves have criminal records.

Domestic homicides as well are preceded by a long history of violence. The "crime of passion" homicide is much more the exception rather than the rule...."

- Gun Homocides

I've no problem with the act of owning a gun, it's the act of someone firing bullets at me I take exception to. If they're happy to own a gun with no bullets that's fine - they can own as many guns as they want.

if it is not having bullets fired at you which is your concern, what about someone having a gun with bullets in it... but not firing it at you? as far as you're concerned, the result is the same, is it not?

No it isn't. Why stop at guns? What if your assailant comes at you with a grenade launcher and your .38 is useless? Would you support the right of everyone to own a grenade launcher? Or is preventing this a violation of your right to defend your life?

there is a large difference between owning a grenade launcher and owning a pistol. the primary difference is that a grenade launcher makes an extremely poor defensive weapon. in fact, a grenade launcher is a far less effective weapon for defensive purposes than a .38.

again.... this is totally fallacious reasoning.

Argument of the Beard

And the last thing I need is some asshole pulling out his .38 in blind panic and accidentally putting 6 bullets into my loved ones as he attempts to "defend his life" from his assailant. What if firing bullets to defend your life puts an innocent passersby right to life at risk?

again you stoop to the level of citing statistically insignificant horror stories... surely after seeing this tactic used by the drug warriors for decades you would have realized how fallacious it was... apparently not.

do yourself, and everyone else here, a favor and learn how to construct a valid deductive argument. a little reason goes a long way. here:this site is an excellent introduction. at the very least, familiarize yourself with the common logical fallacies.

two you would do well to read up on are:

Tu Quoque Fallacy
Straw Man


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1979034 - 10/04/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

The only purpose of a handgun is killing people. Handguns aren't effective hunting weapons. They are good defensive weapons. I prefer to use my brain.

Excerpt from mushmaster:
Have any of you gun advocates used your gun to save a life (At home in America, not at war)?

i haven't. different studies have found that guns are used defensively in the US between 800,000 and 2.5 million times a year. the most recent studies placed the number at 2 million times a year.

How Often Are Guns Used In Self Defense? (Link)
__________
This study is pointless. Dude. You can't count crimes that didn't happen. Actual estimates are much more conservative than 2.5 million. This study says nothing of violent crime. This study counts how many guns were drawn to prevent any crime.

A farmer, drawing his shotgun at his 15 year old daughter's frisky boyfriend would (technically)count as a gun drawn to prevent crime.

The study does nothing to answer this: How many people actually committed a crime by drawing their gun in the first place?

*Excerpt 2:
let's talk about gun homocides for a minute... here are some stats about the people who are out there killing people with guns:

-81% of all homicide defendants have at least one arrest on their record.
-66% have two or more arrests.
-67% have at least one felony arrest.
-56% have two or more felony arrests.
-70% have at least one conviction.
-54% have at least one felony conviction.
______
How many members of this forum have police records? I do.

Excerpt 3:
Guns are similar to cigarettes. They smoke, they kill and they sometimes claim innocent victims. If I can step outside and have a smoke, can't we all give up our semi automatic handguns and automatic weapons?

this is an extremely poor analogy. let's say you're simply carrying a pack of cigarettes inside, and not smoking them (analogous to carrying a weapon and not shooting people)... what's wrong with that?
_____________

The analogy was more for fun than serious... and remember I only want to restrict handguns and autos.

Handguns are easily hidden in urban environments.

I was refering to a smoking gun and a smoking cigarette but ok... let's use your example.

In your analogy, only the gun carrier could kill me with one shot. The person with the pack of smokes would be out on a smoke break while I was shot.

Something I find we all have in common:

Fear.

Gun owners are afraid of everyone who wants to hurt them.

Pacifists are afraid of all the gun owners. Hard to tell the difference sometimes between a criminal and someone who uses a gun for self defense.

Excerpt 4:
there's more logic behind gun control than drug control.

no there isn't. they both seek to prohibit actions which harm no-one. the act of owning a gun, or using drugs, are both victimless crimes.

in the case of drug restrictions, your right to get stoned is violated.
in the case of gun restrictions, your right to defend your own life is violated.
______
Yes but drugs don't kill people who don't use them.

Excerpt 5:
For those of you that insist on keeping guns for protection, can I suggest some Karate classes?

fists are useless against an armed attacker.
_________

I'll take my chances. I can still leave my house without fear of being shot. In fact, terrorists in airplanes are the only people who have come close to murdering me. Fists are useless against them too.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1979071 - 10/04/03 03:36 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

The problem with gun control is the only people who give there guns up are law abiding citezens.


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1979078 - 10/04/03 03:38 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

The only purpose of a handgun is killing people. Handguns aren't effective hunting weapons.

though it's irrelevant, i'd like to just correct you and point out that many people use handguns for hunting. people also shoot targets (i believe this is an olympic sport, no?).

handguns are also good just for brandishing. studies have shown that in 98% of cases, merely drawing a firearm, and not firing it, is enough to dissuade an attacker.

This study is pointless. Dude. You can't count crimes that didn't happen.

yes you can. it's pretty obvious when someone is attacking you, and it's also very obvious to see when your presentation of a firearm thwarts that attack.

we're not talking about someone saying, "yeah.. i was in a really shitty neighborhood, so i walked with my handgun slightly exposed so that people would see it and i wouldn't get mugged... no one attacked me that day, so yep, check another one off for a handgun preventing a crime".

Actual estimates are much more conservative than 2.5 million.

correct. 2.5 million is the highest number. i've seen as low as 800,000. at 800,000, it's still an extremely significant point to consider.

This study says nothing of violent crime. This study counts how many guns were drawn to prevent any crime.

give me one example of a non-violent crime that could be thwarted by the victim drawing a gun.

The study does nothing to answer this: How many people actually committed a crime by drawing their gun in the first place?

of course it doesn't. it's addressing the point of self-defense, not crime.

How many members of this forum have police records? I do.

do not compare the records of murder convicts to the members of this forum, compare them to the general population. (i would venture to say that few of us have criminal records anyway, and extremely few have felonies.)

Gun owners are afraid of everyone who wants to hurt them.

broad, untestable generalization.

Pacifists are afraid of all the gun owners. Hard to tell the difference sometimes between a criminal and someone who uses a gun for self defense.

and another.

Yes but drugs don't kill people who don't use them.

correct. this is why they are very poor for self-defense, while guns are much better.

I'll take my chances. I can still leave my house without fear of being shot. In fact, terrorists in airplanes are the only people who have come close to murdering me. Fists are useless against them too.

good for you. what about others who do not wish to take the same chance?


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #1979080 - 10/04/03 03:39 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

The problem with gun control is the only people who give there guns up are law abiding citezens.

ding ding ding.


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1979083 - 10/04/03 03:41 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

there is an attitude very common amongst gun ban-ers.

it is:

guns are weapons. they are used to kill people. therefore, guns are bad. therefore, we should ban them.

to date, i have yet to find that the line of reasoning extends any further than that.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1979099 - 10/04/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

citing hypothetical anecdotes statistically proven to be extremely rare does little for your argument

It's rare for people to get violent after drinking? What planet are you from? Is a violent man more dangerous with a gun or without a gun?

have a read...

None of this has the faintest thing to do with my point. Straw man?

there is a large difference between owning a grenade launcher and owning a pistol

As big a difference between fists and having a gun?

in fact, a grenade launcher is a far less effective weapon for defensive purposes than a .38.

Again, this really has nothing to do with the point. Not to mention being utterly ludicrous. If i want to kill you I can do it far more effectively with a grenade launcher than a .38.  Why isn't this a "violation of your right to life"?

again you stoop to the level of citing statistically insignificant horror stories

I presume you imagine the cases where people pull guns on burglars and women pull guns on mass murderes down dark alleyways are statistically significant?  :rolleyes:

do yourself, and everyone else here,

Why not do everyone a big favour and just answer the points instead of constantly ducking the issue or posting the same tiresome personal insults you've been repeating for months? 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1979101 - 10/04/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I carry a gun. a 9mm.
My girlfriend carrys a gun also
we both went to conceal and carry class
and got our permits
we had to take a class in saftey and proper handling of a gun
go over laws about carrying a concealed weapon
you have to take a test over all this.
what to do and not do in certain situation.
we also had to go out to the range and do drills
shooting to prove we had dead on marksmanship
you have to be dead on or you don't pass this part of the test.
if you fail either of the tests you don't qualify
then you have to submit your fingerprints to the FBI and your local sherriff. then they both have to decide if you get your permit.
you have to pay over 300 for the class and application fee and fingerprinting charge all of this is non refundable if you get turned down.
people who get these permits are not some nuts.
who have no shooting skills
they are competent people
who are good shooters.
were not just going to be blasting away at someone in a crowd.
we know the gun laws better that anyone
we know what will happen after we use our gun
we know if we do something wrong
we know will be fucked

I also have a friends whos aunt and uncle had people kick there door in demanding car keys and money,they proceded ti shoot his uncle with a 22 rifle
he feel back onto the couch
while his wife ran into there bedroom retreving her handgun
the attackers came at her she put 2 rounds into one guys chest and an a round into his neck
stopping his progress toward her
this frightended the other attacker into runnning out of the house.




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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1979105 - 10/04/03 03:50 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I also have a friends whos aunt and uncle had people kick there door in demanding car keys and money,they proceded ti shoot his uncle with a

I'm afraid mushmaster has insisted statistically insignificant stories like this don't count  :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1979134 - 10/04/03 04:02 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

It's rare for people to get violent after drinking? What planet are you from? Is a violent man more dangerous with a gun or without a gun?

it is statistically rare for someone to go into a drunken or angry rage and start shooting people. you could have figured that out from reading the link i posted.

None of this has the faintest thing to do with my point.

ah... apparently you did not read it.

Straw man?

you also do not seem to be familiar with the definition of a straw man. perhaps this is why you so frequently use this fallacious strategy of argumentation.

i directly attacked your statement. i did not misrepresent, exaggerate, or caricature it. the fact is that it is very rare for someone to go into a drunken rage and start shooting.

As big a difference between fists and having a gun?

no. there is a large difference between these as well. however, one important aspect that they both share is that they can both be effective defensive weapons. a grenade launcher cannot.

Again, this really has nothing to do with the point. Not to mention being utterly ludicrous. If i want to kill you I can do it far more effectively with a grenade launcher than a .38. Why isn't this a "violation of your right to life"?

can someone with some military training back me up here?

a grenade launcher is a poor defensive weapon.

for one, it is typically very large. carrying one with you to defend yourself from muggers and the like is unreasonable.

two, a grenade launcher is useless for using indoors or at close ranges. this makes it totally useless for any civilian defensive applications.

a grenade launcher can kill more effectively than a pistol. of course. it is an excellent weapon for attack. it is, however, a very poor defensive weapon. this is all precisely why it is unwarranted for civilians to be authorized to own grenade launchers.

I presume you imagine the cases where people pull guns on burglars and women pull guns on mass murderes down dark alleyways are statistically significant?

what?

Why not do everyone a big favour and just answer the points instead of constantly ducking the issue or posting the same tiresome personal insults you've been repeating for months?

haha... classic alexism. classic.


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1979136 - 10/04/03 04:03 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I'm afraid mushmaster has insisted statistically insignificant stories like this don't count

they don't alex. we're talking about general trends. aggregates. the BIG PICTURE.

anecdotes have no place here.

if i was of the impression that anecdotes were a valid point for argumentation, i would have already linked to this: The Armed Citizen: Search Archives


Edited by mushmaster (10/04/03 04:30 PM)


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1979182 - 10/04/03 04:29 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Mush: give me one example of a non-violent crime that could be thwarted by the victim drawing a gun.
_______-
I did.

Re read my post. If you don't want to, allow me to recap:

A farmer draws a shotgun at his daughter's frisky boyfriend and chases him away.

There.

A non violent crime was prevented.

here's another

A street dealer tries to sell a farmer cocaine. The farmer draws his gun, chases the dealer away and a non violent crime is prevented.

Here's a third and funny (ie: don't rebute it!) one.

A grandma tried to jaywalk. A farmer pulls a gun and tells her to get back on the sidewalk.

Go prevention!

Not only were guns used in all these preventitive acts, they were unneccicary.

Mushmaster quote: yes you can (When he was told crimes that don't happen can't be counted)
____
Now, Mush, you can't call a crime that wasn't committed a crime. Who's to say it would have happened if it never did? You know that whole tree falling in the woods thing?

2nd excerpt:
i'd like to just correct you and point out that many people use handguns for hunting. people also shoot targets (i believe this is an olympic sport, no?).
____
You missed my point completely. Handguns were designed to kill people at close range. Sure they can be used in hunting... so can blow darts. It doesn't mean they are as effective as a rifle.

Handguns ARE effective at being concealed.

You go on to say handguns can be used in target practice (Where you use human shaped targets!) and in the Olympics (Not handguns buddy. You're confusing facts.)


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1979194 - 10/04/03 04:36 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

I do like your fealon gun control idea.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1979210 - 10/04/03 04:45 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

A farmer draws a shotgun at his daughter's frisky boyfriend and chases him away. there. a non-violent crime was prevented

unless you are referring to rape, which is a violent crime, there is no crime being threatened or prevented here.

A street dealer tries to sell a farmer cocaine. The farmer draws his gun, chases the dealer away and a non violent crime is prevented.

haha. please. that's absurd. the gun did not prevent any crime. saying "no thank you" would have been enough.

the studies were about use of guns used in self-defense. only one of your "examples" could be possibly construed as such, and even then only by an extreme lapse in reason.

Now, Mush, you can't call a crime that wasn't committed a crime. Who's to say it would have happened if it never did? You know that whole tree falling in the woods thing?

yes, i suppose at the last minute, it is entirely possible that the armed attacker would just drop it and exclaim, "hahaha... i'm just playin' with you man... it's cool... let me buy you a drink". i suppose the possibilty for this would be greatly increased as well if it happened to be the first of april...  :smirk:. please.

by this logic, it is impossible to prevent any crime from occuring before it actually does.

You go on to say handguns can be used in target practice (Where you use human shaped targets!) and in the Olympics (Not handguns buddy. You're confusing facts.)

Olympic Sports: Shooting 


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1979226 - 10/04/03 04:54 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

*Mushmaster excerpt: A farmer draws a shotgun at his daughter's frisky boyfriend and chases him away. there. a non-violent crime was prevented

unless you are referring to rape, which is a violent crime, there is no crime being threatened or prevented here.
_______
Statutory rape is exactly what I'm referring to. Those laws can be very vague. Especially on the farmer's front porch!

*Excerpt #2: A street dealer tries to sell a farmer cocaine. The farmer draws his gun, chases the dealer away and a non violent crime is prevented.

haha. please. that's absurd. the gun did not prevent any crime. saying "no thank you" would have been enough.

the studies were about use of guns used in self-defense. only one of your "examples" could be possibly construed as such, even by the most extreme lapses in judgement.
________
You asked me to list non violent crimes that could be prevented, then you go back to your study of violent crime and handguns. I repeat. You asked for NON VIOLENT examples. I was only providing you with what you asked for. You can't disagree with that.

Self defense is a different thing entirely. Equally hard to study but different.

Excerpt 3: http://www.olympic.org/uk/sports/programme/disciplines_uk.asp?DiscCode=SH

Touche. There is a 25m and 50m comp. I didn't even know that. Knew about the air pistols and rifles. I learned something today.

Now, I know handguns are good for killing and Olympic events. Now, I feel bad for thinking hadguns should be outlawed. They are so useful. I could do great things with a handgun... I could kill at close range or... win the gold!

I can sleep easier. Thanks.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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