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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13405917 -

No business no wealth.  And gangbangers work damn hard.  Probably harder than you.

And what about those exploiting employees who used the poor business owner to enrich their bank accounts?  They are EEEEEvul.


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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13405925 -

Quote:
No business no wealth.  And gangbangers work damn hard.  Probably harder than you.

And what about those exploiting employees who used the poor business owner to enrich their bank accounts?  They are EEEEEvul.


gangbangers don't produce objects of value, unless they do drugs.

the whole point about marxist economics is people making products, not the retail store people selling them. the direct producers is what is important. everyone else in society is taking a share of the product of those industries.

those employees did not exploited the poor business owners, they created more value than they are paid.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13406471 -

Which is why the business existed in the first place.  If the owner didn't make any money nobody would have any jobs at all.  You have a pleistocene notion of work and production.  This means nothing to me because you're a Canadian and your jealousy and envy are not my concern but you really do need to get some kind of grip on supporting yourself.


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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13406573 -

:rofl2:
:rockon:


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: curenado]
    #13406801 -

Quote:
what did the owner do except make money out of their surplus value?


This O word it's kinda clue to what he did. It's his property. He fairly earned it. He offered to transfer some of it to worker in exchange for worker providing labour. Worker agreed. The idea that worker has any sort of claim on fruits of his labour when he agreed to transfer those fruits in exchange for money is no less ridiculous than coffe machine manufacturing business claiming a share in profits of their cafeteria business clients.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13407451 -

dude americans didnt react to the british mistreatment for something like 30 years...they went to the government and pleaded for the government to treat them fair--not businesses...revolutions for freedom dont come from a revolt against BUSINESSES it comes from a revolt of CITIZENRY against an unjust GOVERNMENT...yes we took land from the British government and british politicians...yes native americans had their land taken away as well and i do feel bad about this, but i dont think that neccessarily this is capitalisms fault...oh and if you're trying to tell me that the authoritarian kings and queens didn't "steal" land from various factions throughout their times...that communist dictators didn't get the workers to unite against the farmers and take their land and leave no one with the knowledge to farm the land causing food shortages?...i think that the jewish people acted basically as terrorists in forming isreal and "stealing" land from the palestinians

oh and communeart corruption amongst politicians in a "capitalist" society is not capitalism in the raw sense...more and more i am convinced that true capitalism can only be achieved in an anarchic society

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: libertarian23]
    #13408790 -

libertarian23 said:
dude americans didnt react to the british mistreatment for something like 30 years...they went to the government and pleaded for the government to treat them fair--not businesses...revolutions for freedom dont come from a revolt against BUSINESSES it comes from a revolt of CITIZENRY against an unjust GOVERNMENT...yes we took land from the British government and british politicians...yes native americans had their land taken away as well and i do feel bad about this, but i dont think that neccessarily this is capitalisms fault...oh and if you're trying to tell me that the authoritarian kings and queens didn't "steal" land from various factions throughout their times...that communist dictators didn't get the workers to unite against the farmers and take their land and leave no one with the knowledge to farm the land causing food shortages?...i think that the jewish people acted basically as terrorists in forming isreal and "stealing" land from the palestinians

oh and communeart corruption amongst politicians in a "capitalist" society is not capitalism in the raw sense...more and more i am convinced that true capitalism can only be achieved in an anarchic society



qft


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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Nexius]
    #13409947 -

Sorry, I haven't read this whole thread but I'd like to express a couple of ideas relating to capitalism...

If you argue for a communist government, you are arguing for monopolistic state run capitalism - the worst kind in a multitude of ways, where the state is the only entity permitted to accumulate capital and the individuals controlling the state apparati determine how it is to be used.

In the U.S., our current system has been trending away from capitalism for many decades, it would now more appropriately be called 'debtism' as our currency is created from debt and the prevailing behavior is to use debt to build enterprises and fund consumption, instead of building capital first and then funding the expenditures from the accumulated capital.


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: MutantBonobo]
    #13409971 -

I support Bush, Cheney, Rush, Ann, Israel and the Mossad, and Christians.


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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #13409981 -

traitor

I don't support any corrupt politicians

Republicrats


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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #13409987 -

GI_Luvmoney said:
I support Bush, Cheney, Rush, Ann, Israel and the Mossad, and Christians.


So you support salon socialists.

I support individual liberty, free association, the increasing diminution of the initiation of force as a means of achieving goals and minds unencumbered by the fictions of deities.


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: MutantBonobo]
    #13409991 -

MutantBonobo said:
GI_Luvmoney said:
I support Bush, Cheney, Rush, Ann, Israel and the Mossad, and Christians.


So you support salon socialists.

I support individual liberty, free association, the increasing diminution of the initiation of force as a means of achieving goals and minds unencumbered by the fictions of deities.



QFT


--------------------
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13410391 -

Quote:
This O word it's kinda clue to what he did. It's his property. He fairly earned it. He offered to transfer some of it to worker in exchange for worker providing labour. Worker agreed. The idea that worker has any sort of claim on fruits of his labour when he agreed to transfer those fruits in exchange for money is no less ridiculous than coffe machine manufacturing business claiming a share in profits of their cafeteria business clients.


under this economic system yes, but under the economic system that i propose, workers are not exploited since the profit is used to build other industries and to give them healthcare and education. of course, just like our system, the best workers pay more taxes.

as for the final society called stateless communism we/they believe that humans will be selfless and/or machines will do much of the work anyway, i sometime don't believe in it, and i sometime do.

Quote:
dude americans didnt react to the british mistreatment for something like 30 years...they went to the government and pleaded for the government to treat them fair--not businesses...revolutions for freedom dont come from a revolt against BUSINESSES it comes from a revolt of CITIZENRY against an unjust GOVERNMENT...yes we took land from the British government and british politicians...yes native americans had their land taken away as well and i do feel bad about this, but i dont think that neccessarily this is capitalisms fault...oh and if you're trying to tell me that the authoritarian kings and queens didn't "steal" land from various factions throughout their times...that communist dictators didn't get the workers to unite against the farmers and take their land and leave no one with the knowledge to farm the land causing food shortages?...i think that the jewish people acted basically as terrorists in forming isreal and "stealing" land from the palestinians

oh and communeart corruption amongst politicians in a "capitalist" society is not capitalism in the raw sense...more and more i am convinced that true capitalism can only be achieved in an anarchic society


this is my point, everyone is stealing each other's stuff for millenia, i want to create a system where there is no longer theft as property is distributed according to needs. it is a final stage of history where large scale armed robberies no longer exist (aka war and plunder)

also, you anarcho-capitalist want to give the state to the bourgeois, you oppose the government, not the state, a state is required to protect property. it is a somewhat similar return to feudalism.

Quote:
Sorry, I haven't read this whole thread but I'd like to express a couple of ideas relating to capitalism...

If you argue for a communist government, you are arguing for monopolistic state run capitalism - the worst kind in a multitude of ways, where the state is the only entity permitted to accumulate capital and the individuals controlling the state apparati determine how it is to be used.

In the U.S., our current system has been trending away from capitalism for many decades, it would now more appropriately be called 'debtism' as our currency is created from debt and the prevailing behavior is to use debt to build enterprises and fund consumption, instead of building capital first and then funding the expenditures from the accumulated capital.


but you don't get the point that the goal is communism is to have a society where the people actually have the control over their government, and thus, people are not ruled over. but rule society.
Quote:
So you support salon socialists.

I support individual liberty, free association, the increasing diminution of the initiation of force as a means of achieving goals and minds unencumbered by the fictions of deities.


most of what follows will sound like an hysterical anti-fascist rant, but try to get my point that i am talking about textbook definition.

none of them are socialist, non of them are even salon socialist, bush,cheney,rush and ann, are all crypto fascist since they legalize torture. terrorist are ennemies of humanity according to the Geneva convention, they are like pirates. well guess what, torturers fall under this category as well. i find those classification to be retarded but oh well.

as for mossad and israel, sure support a bunch of murderer. support a racist regime lead by the fascist lieberman.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13410435 -

Reply to FAIL.

No communist society can exist without coercion and repression of individuality.  Fuck that.


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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13411353 -

communeart said:
but you don't get the point that the goal is communism is to have a society where the people actually have the control over their government,


I am well aware of the point of communism.  You fail to address the point that I made.  If you want to address what I state with non sequiturs, it is to the detriment of any point you are attempting to make.  If you argue for a communist government, you are arguing for monopolistic state run capitalism - the worst kind in a multitude of ways, where the state is the only entity permitted to accumulate capital and the individuals controlling the state apparati determine how it is to be used.  Unless your community is VERY small, there will be a relatively small number of people ACTUALLY making the day to day decisions while sending out functionaries to carry out those decisions.

Quote:
and thus, people are not ruled over. but rule society.


Which people run the government?  What of the rights of individuals?  A tyranny of the majority is still tyranny, regardless to the popularity of decisions.

Quote:
most of what follows will sound like an hysterical...


Parrots aren't hysterical.


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13411358 -

zappaisgod said:
No communist society can exist without coercion and repression of individuality.


TRUTH!

Quote:
Fuck that.


The appropriate sentiment.


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: MutantBonobo]
    #13414287 -

Quote:
Reply to FAIL.

No communist society can exist without coercion and repression of individuality.  Fuck that.


what do you mean by repression of individuality? are you arguing there is no such coercion or repression of individuality in the capitalist society?
Quote:
I am well aware of the point of communism.  You fail to address the point that I made.  If you want to address what I state with non sequiturs, it is to the detriment of any point you are attempting to make.  If you argue for a communist government, you are arguing for monopolistic state run capitalism - the worst kind in a multitude of ways, where the state is the only entity permitted to accumulate capital and the individuals controlling the state apparati determine how it is to be used.  Unless your community is VERY small, there will be a relatively small number of people ACTUALLY making the day to day decisions while sending out functionaries to carry out those decisions.


depending on the system, the small number of people who control society can actually be removed from office after a vote. either that, or everyone who is interested in politics has equal vote, this mean if the government piss you off all you have to do is be a militant and vote. if not you can just stay home since society satisfy you. the point is to have people as a whole control society, and there are multiple ways to do so, through organisations such as unions and special interests such as feminist organisation or defense of the poor.

fact is, i don't see you bitching about how a small number of people actually make decisions in the capitalist society. also, since that monolithic state is the only one able to raise capital, this also means it goes back into services as opposed to the private wealth of some. most communist,especially council communist and left-wing communist complain to some extent about the top-down organisation of most comunist state. some however defend those countries by saying that it is hard to implement such a system and should be done gradually. it especially doesn't help to be fighting a cold war at the same time.
Quote:
Which people run the government?  What of the rights of individuals?  A tyranny of the majority is still tyranny, regardless to the popularity of decisions.


i don't think hate speech is tolerated, is that not minority protection? is it better to have an unfair power to a minority or to have unfair power given to the majority?

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13414322 -

communeart said:
Quote:
Reply to FAIL.

No communist society can exist without coercion and repression of individuality.  Fuck that.


what do you mean by repression of individuality? are you arguing there is no such coercion or repression of individuality in the capitalist society?


It is not a required feature, no.  It is a required feature of any communal imposition.  Further I might point out that capitalist societies do not build walls to keep people in.
Quote:
Quote:
I am well aware of the point of communism.  You fail to address the point that I made.  If you want to address what I state with non sequiturs, it is to the detriment of any point you are attempting to make.  If you argue for a communist government, you are arguing for monopolistic state run capitalism - the worst kind in a multitude of ways, where the state is the only entity permitted to accumulate capital and the individuals controlling the state apparati determine how it is to be used.  Unless your community is VERY small, there will be a relatively small number of people ACTUALLY making the day to day decisions while sending out functionaries to carry out those decisions.


depending on the system, the small number of people who control society can actually be removed from office after a vote. either that, or everyone who is interested in politics has equal vote, this mean if the government piss you off all you have to do is be a militant and vote. if not you can just stay home since society satisfy you. the point is to have people as a whole control society, and there are multiple ways to do so, through organisations such as unions and special interests such as feminist organisation or defense of the poor.

fact is, i don't see you bitching about how a small number of people actually make decisions in the capitalist society. also, since that monolithic state is the only one able to raise capital, this also means it goes back into services as opposed to the private wealth of some. most communist,especially council communist and left-wing communist complain to some extent about the top-down organisation of most comunist state. some however defend those countries by saying that it is hard to implement such a system and should be done gradually. it especially doesn't help to be fighting a cold war at the same time.
Quote:
Which people run the government?  What of the rights of individuals?  A tyranny of the majority is still tyranny, regardless to the popularity of decisions.


i don't think hate speech is tolerated, is that not minority protection? is it better to have an unfair power to a minority or to have unfair power given to the majority?


Another reply to FAIL.

Hate speech?  So what?  Who decides what is hateful and who decides who gets to claim victim status?


--------------------

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13414490 -

communeart said:
what do you mean by repression of individuality? are you arguing there is no such coercion or repression of individuality in the capitalist society?


Pointing out the destruction of individual liberty in a communist system, is no argument for coercion and repression under other forms of government.

Quote:
depending on the system, the small number of people who control society can actually be removed from office after a vote...


This still does not address the problem of the crushing of individual liberty inherent in a communist system or for that matter, in ANY kind of democracy as currently practiced.  If, in your utopian world, an individual still finds his opinions in the minority, he will still continue to have his rights trampled by the majority.  If you do not respect the rights of the smallest minority, the individual, you are disingenuous in the trumpeting of minority rights because you are in effect saying that some minorities have greater rights than others.

Quote:
fact is, i don't see you bitching about how a small number of people actually make decisions in the capitalist society.


Just what the hell is a capitalist society?  Capitalism exists to varying degrees even in communist countries.  Just because you have yet to see my opinions about various government actions, does not mean I agree with them.  You will find, if you are to see enough of my opinions, that I am not mired in your seemingly dichotomous world view of capitalism vs communism.

Quote:
also, since that monolithic state is the only one able to raise capital...


The reality, when you get away from the fantasy world of utopian communist idealogy, is that giving more power to a central authority (regardless of your good intentions), you concentrate more power to be lusted after and abused by power seekers.  Power is not to be trusted.  Voting is merely a means of placating the masses, while the 'leaders' are given legitimacy in the eyes of the people.  History has shown that if the people are inclined to believe that their governments are legitimate, they will tolerate horrendous acts by those entrusted with the power.

Quote:
i don't think hate speech is tolerated, is that not minority protection?


No, that is not.  'hate speech' is a nebulous term to be defined in whatever way those who don't like certain speech choose to define it.  Minority protection includes the protection of all speech.  Speech is not violence.  If the ideas are born of ignorance, anyone with the ability to reason should be able to present arguments to counter them.  If the ideas can't be countered, those in opposition should re-examine their premises, as they may be wrong.

Quote:
is it better to have an unfair power to a minority or to have unfair power given to the majority?


No, this is a false dilemma.


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)

Edited by MutantBonobo (10/31/10 04:31 PM)

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: MutantBonobo]
    #13414865 -

Quote:
It is not a required feature, no.  It is a required feature of any communal imposition.  Further I might point out that capitalist societies do not build walls to keep people in.


except israel and the wish of some minuteman. as for building walls, it's not exactly building walls when you want the citizens to pay back at least some of the education that was provided for free by the government. people could get out of east germany as well.

Quote:
This still does not address the problem of the crushing of individual liberty inherent in a communist system or for that matter, in ANY kind of democracy as currently practiced.  If, in your utopian world, an individual still finds his opinions in the minority, he will still continue to have his rights trampled by the majority.  If you do not respect the rights of the smallest minority, the individual, you are disingenuous in the trumpeting of minority rights because you are in effect saying that some minorities have greater rights than others.


he has the right to be a militant and convince people, is this person supposed to force all of society to abide by his rule?
Quote:
Just what the hell is a capitalist society?  Capitalism exists to varying degrees even in communist countries.  Just because you have yet to see my opinions about various government actions, does not mean I agree with them.  You will find, if you are to see enough of my opinions, that I am not mired in your seemingly dichotomous world view of capitalism vs communism.


capitalism is private ownership of capital and industry, tito had some capitalist notions and krushev did reintroduce certain elements ofcapitalism, but there is a huge difference anyway. so far you have criticized communism without applying it to your own government. you do not know my opinion about various communist government's action. yet you accuse communist government of doing this and that implying taht i agree with it.
Quote:
The reality, when you get away from the fantasy world of utopian communist idealogy, is that giving more power to a central authority (regardless of your good intentions), you concentrate more power to be lusted after and abused by power seekers.  Power is not to be trusted.  Voting is merely a means of placating the masses, while the 'leaders' are given legitimacy in the eyes of the people.  History has shown that if the people are inclined to believe that their governments are legitimate, they will tolerate horrendous acts by those entrusted with the power.



power seekers are capitalists as well, they can corrupt the government all they want. our government right now has a shitload of careerist. if the leaders have legitimacy in the eyes of the people, then i guess they agree with his action no? there is no way around this. those who tolerate horrendous act usually had much more brutal acts done against them by imperialist, for example, russia,china,north korea,pol pot. all had to go through horrible circumstances and thus the people accepted more repression as a consequence of nationalism and outside threat. just like ahmadinejad gets so much support simply for being more anti-imperialist than moussavi.
Quote:
No, that is not.  'hate speech' is a nebulous term to be defined in whatever way those who don't like certain speech choose to define it.  Minority protection includes the protection of all speech.  Speech is not violence.  If the ideas are born of ignorance, anyone with the ability to reason should be able to present arguments to counter them.  If the ideas can't be countered, those in opposition should re-examine their premises, as they may be wrong.


hate speech leads to violence, anti-semitism was severely repressed in the soviet unions and thus pogroms and hate crimes severely stopped.

i know that a hate crime is a crime like any other, i know that hate speech is speech is like any other. however, pragmatically looking at it we can see that nations who have adopted reasonable hate speech laws usually have less crimes in them, when i say reasonable, i'm not talking about holocaust denial ( the government decide what is truth or not, albeit i am not against falsifying information, though it is hard to have a middle-ground) i'm also not talking about banning all nazi symbol like in germany.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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