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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Metamorph]
    #13401943 -

Quote:
The companies pay them for their resources and their leaders steal their money.  That is not a flaw of capitalism.  It is a flaw of kleptocrats.  And when you said "pirate fishing" I first thought of what is going on on the East coast of Africa.  LOL.


iu am really sick of you, pretending that america does not support all the dictatorships of africa except zimbabwe.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13401962 -

zappaisgod said:
luvdemshrooms said:
zappaisgod said:
Oh yeah?  Pick something else that has killed or enslaved billions of people.


Religion.


No.


Yes.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13403025 -

luvdemshrooms said:
zappaisgod said:
luvdemshrooms said:
zappaisgod said:
Oh yeah?  Pick something else that has killed or enslaved billions of people.


Religion.


No.


Yes.


I'm sorry but "no" - there were not "billions" available to even do that to on earth when religion ruled, even through the whole collective of them in recorded history :lol:
Islam as the only recent "nonvoluntary" example I can think of has not killed "billions" yet, it's just their j*ck-off fantasy :lol:


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: curenado]
    #13403525 -

forgive me for i have not read most of what has been written here but the beginning and basically all i want to say is that capitalism never ends...socialism and communism are tools which the political class uses to hold power over the peasantry and make it so that the peasantry always is on the losing side of the bet and the pols win, and win big...the political class never stops playing the game that is capitalism they just make it easier for themselves and harder for others...true capitalism can be summed up as a casino where everyone has even odds to use their brains, skills, and effort to get as much or as little as they desire...once the constraints of government get slapped onto the peasantry the government has basically created a casino within a casino with different rules for this group then the other.  the political class takes a rake from the peasantry and still plays the other casino to get richer

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: libertarian23]
    #13404737 -

Quote:
socialism and communism are tools which the political class uses to hold power over the peasantry and make it so that the peasantry always is on the losing side of the bet

Where did you get that from? I've never read anything like that in any of Marx's writings :confused:

I think people should really start figuring that the concept of pure (=stateless) communism, which is what Marxism in the end is all about, has little to do with the historical "communistic" dictatorships everyone is refering to. They were nothing like what Marx and Engels had ever wanted. They would have probably turned in their graves had they ever heard of this perversion of their theories.
They developed this concept to improve the living conditions of the workers in times of accelerating industrialization, when these people were exploited to a degree that is in no way comparable to what are dealing with today. Blaming them or their ideas for the crimes that Mao and Stalin committed is blatantly ignoroant. No matter if you approve of their ideas or not.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Metamorph]
    #13404794 -

Quote:
Where did you get that from? I've never read anything like that in any of Marx's writings :confused:

I think people should really start figuring that the concept of pure (=stateless) communism, which is what Marxism in the end is all about, has little to do with the historical "communistic" dictatorships everyone is refering to. They were nothing like what Marx and Engels had ever wanted. They would have probably turned in their graves had they ever heard of this perversion of their theories.


There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.;

Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State;

Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.


Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. 

If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

All taken from communist manifesto. How could anyone see it as anything but ode to nonviolence, democracy, justice and political freedom? What perverts! They were simply told to wage warfare to rob all businesses (who are nothing but enemies and ugly theives), discard of any moral principles and establish despotic proletariat order. And that's it.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Metamorph]
    #13404804 -

Metamorph said:
Quote:
socialism and communism are tools which the political class uses to hold power over the peasantry and make it so that the peasantry always is on the losing side of the bet

Where did you get that from? I've never read anything like that in any of Marx's writings :confused:

I think people should really start figuring that the concept of pure (=stateless) communism, which is what Marxism in the end is all about, has little to do with the historical "communistic" dictatorships everyone is refering to. They were nothing like what Marx and Engels had ever wanted. They would have probably turned in their graves had they ever heard of this perversion of their theories.


This ignorance you percieve of various posters is a bit presumptuous and perhaps arrogant.  What basis do you have to assert that the ills of socialism identified by these posters are ignorantly maintained purely as a result of the historical "communist states" you speak of?

I've had such claims thrown at me and others several times- ironically usually by those who seem far less educated on socialist theory and the history of the communist states.

How can Marxist-style government avoid what is alleged of it in the post you criticize?

To the extent Marx actually suggests solutions to the problems he whines about and claims exist without evidence, he fails entirely to propose any plausible escape from the things criticised by the poster you reply to.  What exactly are you alleging Marxist theory had going for it that escaped these criticisms?

Quote:
They developed this concept to improve the living conditions of the workers in times of accelerating industrialization, when these people were exploited to a degree that is in no way comparable to what are dealing with today.


Fantastic.  Lennin also shared these concerns.  So did Pol Pot.  So did Genghis Kahn.  So did Mussolini

In fact, every political movement seeking even a modicum of popular support has likewise intended such things.

Nobody is complaining of 'best intentions' here.  Frankly, I don't give a damn why my oppressor is oppressing me, nor do I excuse the oppression of others because I imagine its done with "good" reasons in mind- like every other political movement in history.




Metamorph said:
zappaisgod said:
I think the combined murders committed by Stalin Mao and Pol Pot may well have eclipsed the two world wars.

I agree. And I don't think anybody is going to argue that. But to be fair, these violent authoritarian dictatorships had little to do with the concept of real communism.


This smarts of a no true scotsman fallacy, or post hoc adjustment to the criteria defining "communist country" or "communism".  I don't understand what basis you would use to differentiate these two classes other than an arbitrary measurement of "intent" on the part of the government, which is unwoarkable and pointless despite the self-evident divergence of the various communist countries from classical marxism (that this is unworkable in practice is besides the point) and the various looney tunes schools of thought derived therefrom

While it is agreed that there is no reason to attribute the ills of the self-identified socialist states to communist countries in general (despite the perfect agreement of the two in most examples), there is a strong argument to be made that the ills of these countries are neccesarily those of a communist country.

As Zappa has rightly indicated in many past discussions, the very basis of the socialist system requires thugs with guns to violently take property and person, and threaten the same, to facilitate the government's seizure of all property and acts of the people.  Despite much quibbling and silliness, noone has succesfully challenged this fundamental problem.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: AlexD]
    #13404835 -

Centralization is the first step, but what Marx wanted to reach was a status quo in which this state was no longer necessary and all forms of government and centralization would vanish. Stateless communism.

@ johnm214:
It is not as if Stalin or Mao had ever intended of giving up their power...
That's why they never reached something like pure communism.

Quote:
I don't understand what basis you would use to differentiate these two classes


Marxism -> stateless society in the end
Stalinism, Maoism etc. -> centralized government keeping status quo
Quite a difference for me.

Quote:
While it is agreed that there is no reason to attribute the ills of the self-identified socialist states to communist countries in general (despite the perfect agreement of the two in most examples), there is a strong argument to be made that the ills of these countries are neccesarily those of a communist country.


Yes only that's in my opinion caused by the human nature. I think we're to greedy and egoistical to ever reach what Marx and Engels predicted. There will ever be a "real" communist country, it just doesn't work with us :shrug:
What's wrong with communism is us, not the concept. IMO.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Metamorph]
    #13404858 -

Quote:
Centralization is the first step, but what Marx wanted to reach was a status quo in which this state was no longer necessary and all forms of government and centralization would vanish. Stateless communism.


His utopian semi-coherent dreams are irrelevant to anything but dreaming. Maybe Nazis also dreamed that one day there somehow there would be no government but perfect arian community. What matters is he demonized rich/businesses, told poor to wage warfare on them without any moral considerations and after war is over to create an ideological despotic state. It'a hard to pervert such poisonous ideology further and Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc certainly didn't.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: AlexD]
    #13404873 -

I didn't live at those times, under those circumstances, so I wouldn't be so fast at demonizing this man. But that's your opinion and I'll accept it.

Quote:
It'a hard to pervert such poisonous ideology further and Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc certainly didn't.

Oh they didn't? :crazy:

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Metamorph]
    #13404931 -

Quote:
Where did you get that from? I've never read anything like that in any of Marx's writings :confused:

I think people should really start figuring that the concept of pure (=stateless) communism, which is what Marxism in the end is all about, has little to do with the historical "communistic" dictatorships everyone is refering to. They were nothing like what Marx and Engels had ever wanted. They would have probably turned in their graves had they ever heard of this perversion of their theories.
They developed this concept to improve the living conditions of the workers in times of accelerating industrialization, when these people were exploited to a degree that is in no way comparable to what are dealing with today. Blaming them or their ideas for the crimes that Mao and Stalin committed is blatantly ignoroant. No matter if you approve of their ideas or not.


do you know that marx initially refused to join the first internationale because he was scared that there would be a cult of personality toward him? marx refused any deification of anyone, yet communiste state under lenin and stalin had a very pervasive personality cult.
Quote:
forgive me for i have not read most of what has been written here but the beginning and basically all i want to say is that capitalism never ends...socialism and communism are tools which the political class uses to hold power over the peasantry and make it so that the peasantry always is on the losing side of the bet and the pols win, and win big...the political class never stops playing the game that is capitalism they just make it easier for themselves and harder for others...true capitalism can be summed up as a casino where everyone has even odds to use their brains, skills, and effort to get as much or as little as they desire...once the constraints of government get slapped onto the peasantry the government has basically created a casino within a casino with different rules for this group then the other.  the political class takes a rake from the peasantry and still plays the other casino to get richer


you need money to make money, it isn't just using your brain to make money, it's using money to make more of it, on the back of someone else. capitalism is just not fair.
Quote:
All taken from communist manifesto. How could anyone see it as anything but ode to nonviolence, democracy, justice and political freedom? What perverts! They were simply told to wage warfare to rob all businesses (who are nothing but enemies and ugly theives), discard of any moral principles and establish despotic proletariat order. And that's it.


you capitalists have an incredibly amount of double standard, didn't the american revolution seize land from the british? hell they seized all that land from the natives as well. will any of you accept the crimes of capitalism? the french revolution had many executions and counter-revolution. you know, this whole idea that the poor are told to wage warfare is ridiculous, the bourgeois and wealthy are waging a vicious war against the working class whenever they want higher profits, they recently killed 45 union leaders in colombia not so long ago. will you take responsability for those crimes? of course not!

but us communist have to take responsability for everything.
Quote:
I'm sorry but "no" - there were not "billions" available to even do that to on earth when religion ruled, even through the whole collective of them in recorded history :lol:
Islam as the only recent "nonvoluntary" example I can think of has not killed "billions" yet, it's just their j*ck-off fantasy


islam is not al-qaeda, al-qaeda consider most muslim country not to be true islam and thus worthy of killing. islam is also about defensive jihad for the most part, they don't think of killing billions.

as for the population count , i have no idea why we shouldn't include % of population. the paris commune is often cited as the historical reason for the authoritarianism of communist regimes, who lost their idealism and naivety about repression and warfare. even the communist in russia were pretty lenient toward their ennemies at first and later regretted it as they let generals of the white army roam free to fight against bolshevik forces.
Quote:
Marxism -> stateless society in the end
Stalinism, Maoism etc. -> centralized government keeping status quo
Quite a difference for me.



actually mao did try to experiment moving toward stateless communism in the cultural revolution, but he stopped the process as it was clear that it was causing too much disruptions and there were far too much public humiliation and killings.  different red guards group were shooting at each other. you can blame most of the status quo stuff on the bureaucracy which prevailed in the soviet union. they overthrew krushchev for example which was a much more democratic and efficient leader than brezhnev .
Quote:
His utopian semi-coherent dreams are irrelevant to anything but dreaming. Maybe Nazis also dreamed that one day there somehow there would be no government but perfect arian community. What matters is he demonized rich/businesses, told poor to wage warfare on them without any moral considerations and after war is over to create an ideological despotic state. It'a hard to pervert such poisonous ideology further and Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc certainly didn't.


marx worked on justifying the revolution and studying the french revolution in particuler when the bourgeoisie overthrew the aristocracy. he did not want to predict how such a society would be, or how such a society would reach that point, he wanted to leave that to the next generations who would have to go through warfare,struggle and to adapt themselves to the new conditions of society.

decades of clandestinity, harsh repression by government with 'free speech', government sponsored propaganda against their movement. this will disillusion any of you about so called civil disobedience or peaceful protests.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Metamorph]
    #13404974 -

Metamorph said:
@ johnm214:
It is not as if Stalin or Mao had ever intended of giving up their power...
That's why they never reached something like pure communism.


I don't understand the relevance of this statement.  That they may not have became communist in the marxist sense has no bearing on whether their ills may be attributed to socialism.  They were communist countries with many problems endemic to such that can, in my view, be directly attributed to the socialist doctrine they attempted to introduce.

As such, what does it matter that these communist states could not be fairly judged to be communist in Marxist terminology?
Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand what basis you would use to differentiate these two classes


Marxism -> stateless society in the end
Stalinism, Maoism etc. -> centralized government keeping status quo
Quite a difference for me.



Their is indeed a difference as alleged, however; I'd be interested in what the hypothetical end state of Marxist theology has to do with anything?  As nobody is alleging the communist states achieved communism (beyond the states themselves, which often did to certain degrees) in the Marxist sense, this is a moot point.

So I'll ask again: on what grounds do you distinguish between these two classes and how does the difference make inapplicable the arguments offered against socialism or those which tie the ills of the communist states to socialism in general?

For your argument to not be a no true scotsman fallacy or otherwise not post hoc quibbling, you need to provide a fair basis to distinguish these classes which you assert are meaningfully different in this context- and so far I don't believe you can say you've done that.

Quote:
Quote:
While it is agreed that there is no reason to attribute the ills of the self-identified socialist states to communist countries in general (despite the perfect agreement of the two in most examples), there is a strong argument to be made that the ills of these countries are neccesarily those of a communist country.


Yes only that's in my opinion caused by the human nature. I think we're to greedy and egoistical to ever reach what Marx and Engels predicted. There will ever be a "real" communist country, it just doesn't work with us :shrug:
What's wrong with communism is us, not the concept. IMO.



I agree with you here, though I'd say that if something is impossible that there is indeed something wrong with the concept, but this is a bit of a semantic point more than anything.

The problem is that I think its plain that the same flaws which manifest themselves in society and government and prevent the attainment of a communist state in Marxist terms also manifest themselves in any socialist state and cause similar problems.

These problems are what neccesitate the thugs with guns, the repossesion of property, and ensure unjust and bad government with a failing economy.  The specifics are familiar topics of this discussion and don't bear further mention unless you challenge the specifics rather than the all-encompasing faults driving them.



The central problem of socialist thought in my view is touched on in your reply and this discussion:  these problems discussed by us will inevitably be present in the government as well as the society at large.  As the government will have possesion and ownership of the entire economic facilities of the country, and its output, and have plenary control of the people's actions and lives, this problem becomes disasterous.  Not only have you removed all competition (with its voluntary nature allowing a worker or consumer to go elsewhere upon finding the goods or service wanting, or the buisness tyranical or unjust) but you've given absolute control to a single entity- what's more an entity with a police force and military.  The legislature is nice too, but that becomes irrelevant as history shows.

This is the central problem and the great blindspot of the socialist advocates: they focus on the problems inherent to a free market and yet don't apply the same scrutiny to their proposed solution- for if they did they'd realize it is infinitely amplified in magnitude and pervasiveness.

(I see similar examples in the "CHANGE" mantra of various candidates for office.  Though this is Obama's credo, it isn't exclusive to him, just a convenient example.  They whine about the status quo and argue that supports their reforms without even specifying what those reforms are and certainly without holding these reforms to the same scrutiny which they've used to condemn the current situation)

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: johnm214]
    #13404989 -

Quote:
These problems are what neccesitate the thugs with guns, the repossesion of property, and ensure unjust and bad government with a failing economy.  The specifics are familiar topics of this discussion and don't bear further mention unless you challenge the specifics rather than the all-encompasing faults driving them.


what failing economic policy are you talking about? the ussr was doing pretty good in economic terms up until the 1970s.
Quote:
The central problem of socialist thought in my view is touched on in your reply and this discussion:  these problems discussed by us will inevitably be present in the government as well as the society at large.  As the government will have possesion and ownership of the entire economic facilities of the country, and its output, and have plenary control of the people's actions and lives, this problem becomes disasterous.  Not only have you removed all competition (with its voluntary nature allowing a worker or consumer to go elsewhere upon finding the goods or service wanting, or the buisness tyranical or unjust) but you've given absolute control to a single entity- what's more an entity with a police force and military.  The legislature is nice too, but that becomes irrelevant as history shows.


but the Communist state in a marxist sense does not have a government who has the plenary control of the people's action and lives. the people itself rules the government in a leaderless manner, while it also has provisions to protect minorities. it is not the dictatorship of the majority either.
Quote:
This is the central problem and the great blindspot of the socialist advocates: they focus on the problems inherent to a free market and yet don't apply the same scrutiny to their proposed solution- for if they did they'd realize it is infinitely amplified in magnitude and pervasiveness.


well perhaps, however i too often have to contend with double-standard when it comes to repression in communism and capitalist countries.

marxists simply prefer when a marxist criticize their economy, too often mises rant about socialism is ignorant about our economic theories.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13405032 -

Quote:
marx worked on justifying the revolution and studying the french revolution in particuler when the bourgeoisie overthrew the aristocracy. he did not want to predict how such a society would be, or how such a society would reach that point, he wanted to leave that to the next generations who would have to go through warfare,struggle and to adapt themselves to the new conditions of society.

decades of clandestinity, harsh repression by government with 'free speech', government sponsored propaganda against their movement. this will disillusion any of you about so called civil disobedience or peaceful protests.



Yeah yeah yeah I'm sure Nazis have a sob story to tell as well, about opressed arians and horrible capitalist jew opressors...Poor communists perpetually repressed by those evil capitalists (nazis by jew capitalists)...whatever...Marx's agenda is crystal clear, it's implementation is also well known. There isn't a single place on Earth where this "rob the rich" cult has been established and resulted in anything but ultramurderous dictatorship grinding basically anyyone it finds usefull to grind (including workers). You found something on envy and disregard for any human moral, you get violent thugs running things.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: AlexD]
    #13405067 -

Quote:
Yeah yeah yeah I'm sure Nazis have a sob story to tell as well, about opressed arians and horrible capitalist jew opressors...Poor communists perpetually repressed by those evil capitalists (nazis by jew capitalists)...whatever...Marx's agenda is crystal clear, it's implementation is also well known. There isn't a single place on Earth where this "rob the rich" cult has been established and resulted in anything but ultramurderous dictatorship grinding basically anyyone it finds usefull to grind (including workers). You found something on envy and disregard for any human moral, you get violent thugs running things.


did the jews oppressed the aryan ? comparing both is absolutly ridiculous, the total equality of mankind compared to the absolute superiority of a race.

and yes, we do tend disregard morality as it is produced by society, without this idea that morality is used to stabilize society there wouldn't be any abortion. or perhaps there would be for the simple reason that society changed. how does that make us a bunch of psychopaths? we disregard the moralist double standard bullshit of capitalist.

the rob the rich ideology implies that the people want to be rich themselves, while in fact they want to redistribute wealth, this is very different. did the bourgeois preserve aristocratic wealth and priviledge? why the double standard again. everything pro-capitalists throws at us is repugnant double standards

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13405144 -

Quote:
the rob the rich ideology implies that the people want to be rich themselves, while in fact they want to redistribute wealth, this is very different.


Well we'll just have to agree to disagree here. There is nopthing in communist agenda or it's practical implementation to suggest it's adepts want anything but their share of loot/guranteed income in future. Some are lucky like party elite and they become rich, some are less lucky like foot soldiers and they become impoverished/semi-impoverished/jailed/killed.

If some bunch of street thugs ever to come up with some ideology it would be similar to Marxism: society opresses them, deprives them of their wealth, they have to take back what theirs and they do it of course out of love for fellow man. And they do in fact say just that.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: AlexD]
    #13405348 -

Quote:
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree here. There is nopthing in communist agenda or it's practical implementation to suggest it's adepts want anything but their share of loot/guranteed income in future. Some are lucky like party elite and they become rich, some are less lucky like foot soldiers and they become impoverished/semi-impoverished/jailed/killed.

If some bunch of street thugs ever to come up with some ideology it would be similar to Marxism: society opresses them, deprives them of their wealth, they have to take back what theirs and they do it of course out of love for fellow man. And they do in fact say just that.


no, there was corruption in communist states just like there is corruption among politicians in capitalist states.

as for taking back whats theirs, what's wrong with taking back what's yours? beside, street gangs are taking what isn't theirs, other's people's money,labor etc.

we disagree that exploitation is theft, but you seem to imply that keeping what is yours is legitimate.

Castro isn't rich, and the many communist officials had a higher wage than the normal people, because that's what socialism is, however, they were not rich. many were corrupted and had western goods, it is somewhat ironic that there was a huge black market among the population but then they protested that the elites had access to western goods shop.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: communeart]
    #13405610 -

Quote:
as for taking back whats theirs, what's wrong with taking back what's yours? beside, street gangs are taking what isn't theirs, other's people's money,labor etc.


Just like communists are taking what's not theirs. Communists say business property/income belongs to workers (through state) although workers have nothing to do with this business except they were hired by owner. Thus communists rob business on behalf of workers. Gangbanger would say society screwed him, made him poor and he just returning what's his.

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: johnm214]
    #13405740 -

I was just under the impression that this:
Quote:
As nobody is alleging the communist states achieved communism [...] in the Marxist sense


...was in fact not the case and it would be just fair to mention it.
Many people are very fast on hating on communism without actually reading up on the subject and accordingly tend to mix things up :shrug:

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Re: Capitalism Kills [Re: Metamorph]
    #13405786 -

Quote:
Just like communists are taking what's not theirs. Communists say business property/income belongs to workers (through state) although workers have nothing to do with this business except they were hired by owner. Thus communists rob business on behalf of workers. Gangbanger would say society screwed him, made him poor and he just returning what's his.


gangbangers don't work. the communist don't rob businesses, they redistribute wealth, there is a difference.

they were hired by the owner, and thus were economically exploited, what did the owner do except make money out of their surplus value?

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by newuser1492

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