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OfflineLothar121
Marijuanaactivist
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 17 years, 2 days
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975887 - 08/07/04 03:51 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Doc, I understand your arguments, but you really have no basis of science to back it.

On a pure speculative note, I would argue that not everyone is going to go out and use drugs if they are legalized, therefore legalizing drugs would really not change anything.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975891 - 08/07/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, I didnt say psychedelic users werent consumers, merely that they apply their consumption to different things than non-psychedelic users. If psychedelic use were to become widespread, I predict that a lot of rich people would become poor and a lot of poor people would become rich. Not to mention the effect it would have on politics. In other words, the status quo would be disrupted, as it was in the 60's.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975895 - 08/07/04 03:53 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lothar121 said:
Doc, I understand your arguments, but you really have no basis of science to back it.






correct, it was totally specualtive, although there is some anthropological evidence to my claim.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975917 - 08/07/04 04:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think a lot of people here are overestimating the effect that legalization of psychedelics would have on their consumption. Since when does making a drug legal increase interest in it?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Loc: space
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975920 - 08/07/04 04:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

sometimes people are less interested in doing something when there's a vast organization of scary men with guns threatening to imprison them if they are caught doing it.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975922 - 08/07/04 04:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975930 - 08/07/04 04:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

not if you are thinking in terms of decades (or even centuries) instead of years. These things take time.

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976034 - 08/07/04 04:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.

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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? *DELETED* [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976078 - 08/07/04 05:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2976183 - 08/07/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.



And yet they remained illegal during that time.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976286 - 08/07/04 06:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Here's my opinion on it. The drug war is very capitalist. Why? Because it's protecting the system by keeping people concentrated on materialistic goals.




True Capitalism isn't what I would call a "system". It is more like having no system to inhibit our own individual choices. If you want to start up a commune with a voluntary socialist system within a true Capitalist society and forsake all material posessions it would not harm the society at large one bit.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976297 - 08/07/04 06:16 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
It's capitalistic to prohibit the sale of substances which would most certainly cause a massive shift in values because people would begin to value material things less and less. That's dangerous to a materialistic society.

In the long run it's in the best interest of a materialistic society to prohibit the use of drugs which would kill the thought that fuels it.




I fail to see how a few (or even many) people forsaking material things will harm anything in a Capitalist society.

As a side note I know and am around a lot of drug users and most are more greedy and materialistic than average. Drugs do not lead to people forsaking material things.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: pB0t]
    #2976305 - 08/07/04 06:21 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
The trip is in your head, not the drugs.



I've been trying to explain this to people here for quite some time. They don't seem to get it.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976329 - 08/07/04 06:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.



And yet they remained illegal during that time.




LSD was not scheduled until 67. Up until that point it was basically a research chemical. MDMA was not scheduled until 83, I believe.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2976345 - 08/07/04 06:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.



And yet they remained illegal during that time.




LSD was not scheduled until 67. Up until that point it was basically a research chemical. MDMA was not scheduled until 83, I believe.



And the "Summer of Love" which sparked the psychedelic revolution did not start until 1967. What a coincidence! And MDMA was not commonly used back then.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976366 - 08/07/04 06:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

well, everyone knows that hippies were a cheap ripoff of beatniks. dont even get me started on the phoniness of the hippie revolution. By that time, people were just going with the crowd. The real revolutionaries were in their 20's during the 40's and 50's, and those are the ones that founded groups like the Weathermen in the late 60's. Anyway, there is absolutely no way I would describe 67 as 'the spark of the psychedelic revolution'. It was more like the grand finale. LSD was invented in 1938. The bulk of scientific research on LSD was done in the 50's. It was during that time that the beatniks like Ken Kesey got ahold of LSD and worked out the basic principles which would be imitated and corrupted by the hippie generation. It was the commodification of LSD and similar drugs which destroyed the counter culture. Before prohibition, those chemicals were worthless. Can you imagine being able to buy a gram of LSD for nearly nothing from switzerland?

Also, arent you aware of how ugly shit got in 68? That year was the closest this country has come to revolution in modern times, IMO.

and no, MDMA wasnt around, but MDA was. MDA was developed by the Nazis, I believe.

Edited by DoctorJ (08/07/04 06:55 PM)

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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? *DELETED* [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2976415 - 08/07/04 07:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: pB0t]
    #2976425 - 08/07/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

hmmmm...  well you're right about Merk in 1912. 

I thought I remember reading somewhere that the Nazis used it as a "go pill" during WWII...  But I cant seem to find anything that confirms that now... :shrug:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2976544 - 08/07/04 08:09 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:



But do you realize how many practitioners are abusing the patient/doctor trust by recommending methamphetamines when they arent necessary or beneficial? I'm telling you, its an epidemic. How many kids today are diagnosed with "ADHD" just for being rowdy kids? How many gullible parents are trusting their doctors and putting their kids on these meds, causing their children lifelong problems? I was born in 81, and over half the people I know have been prescribed adderol or ritalin at one point in their lives, whether they needed it or not. Many of these people would never have taken that shit if it werent for the direction (and in the case of anyone under 16- forced administration) of doctors. Shit, my mother has my little brother strung out on that shit right now, the doctors have her soooo convinced that there is something 'wrong' with him. He's 13 and couldnt legally refuse treatment if he wanted to. By the time he's old enough to say no, the damage will have already been done. Do you think that's right?



I do believe we may have found something to agree on. I find the whole "better children through chemistry" thing very fucked up. The fucking "disease" of ADD, PDD, HDD, whateverDD didn't exist when I was a kid. Sure there were kids who were having problems but I would say, strictly from experiential observations that it was less than a quarter the number of kids who are being made guinea pigs of today with their myriad drug regimens, often in the same kid. See Thomas Szasz "The Myth of Mental Illness."

I think the government should safeguard product quality and provide information that any reasonable person can understand. After that, you're on your own.


--------------------

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976563 - 08/07/04 08:16 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You don't understand what Capitalism is, which is why you feel that the WOD is anti-Capitalist. I don't say this as a criticism -- few people these days understand what Capitalism is.

But mushmaster is right on with this one -- the WOD is about as anti-Capitalist as a government policy can be. This is why such staunch defenders of Capitalism as the Cato Institute, National Review, the Objectivist Society, Neal Boortz, and the Libertarian Party of the United States (as well as many more) all oppose the WOD. It is the very antithesis of Capitalism.

pinky


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