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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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capitalism
    #3780486 -

I'm tired of all the shit talking about capitalism. Capitalism is just like any other economic structure.. it's fine in ideal just like any other system.. it rewards those who work hard and fucks over those who don't contribute anything to society

it's just never run properly because %1 will always fuck it up... the people that take advantage of it.

Capitalism is not evil. If you think it is... then next time you see some 6 year olds selling lemonade on the side of the road... send a carbomb their way.. because that's the EPITOME of capitalism.

The next time you buy a candy bar from a cub scout oat your door.. well.. that makes you a part of the problem.

GREED is what the problem is.... you find greed in any country... any government... and social situation.

CounterPoint?

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Re: capitalism [Re: BrAiN]
    #3780527 -

capitalism = an idea(l)

capitalism + humans = evil

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Re: capitalism [Re: faslimy]
    #3780531 -

faslimy said:
capitalism = an idea(l)

capitalism + humans = evil


but there so much more to it than that

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Re: capitalism [Re: faslimy]
    #3780584 -

socialism + humans = evil

in fact it's safe to say that

X + humans = evil

so why single out capitalism so much

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Re: capitalism [Re: BrAiN]
    #3780636 -

this is what i think

capitalism = darwinism.... survival of the fittest

humans are greedy by nature

capitalism is a great idea in that it's total freedom

freedom is good right?

problem is... fredom means freedom to be an asshole and freedom to be greedy

capitalism = the course of nature as it has always been... the stronger lions of the pack surviving over the weaker.... the plants with stronger roots living because they can take in mor nutrients, etc etc etc etc...

that's the way science made the world... capitalist...

I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just saying capitalism is just kinda gowing with the way nature has always been... selective... it's just the way it's been done for billions of years

kinda makes sense eh?

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Re: capitalism [Re: BrAiN]
    #3780937 -

BrAiN said:
so why single out capitalism so much


Envy + ignorance.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: capitalism [Re: BrAiN]
    #3781073 -

I totally agree. And what sucked was last semester I was in a class(Sociology of the Third World) where people would bash capitalism every day. People need to recognize that capitalism did not create greed. It merely recognizes human greed as a fact of life, and creates a productive, non-violent means(the free market) through which society can benefit from that greed.


--------------------

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Re: capitalism [Re: BrAiN]
    #3781556 -

BrAiN said:
capitalism = darwinism.... survival of the fittest


capitalism = the course of nature as it has always been... the stronger lions of the pack surviving over the weaker.... the plants with stronger roots living because they can take in mor nutrients, etc etc etc etc...

that's the way science made the world... capitalist...

I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just saying capitalism is just kinda gowing with the way nature has always been... selective... it's just the way it's been done for billions of years

kinda makes sense eh?


uh... what?!?

capitalism is the building off of free labour. when someone can make profit without paying for labour [fully] then that is capitalism. making the most.

its not that some people are stronger or more fit or whatever, it that they are being expoited for the work and labour that they do produce. freedom?? on what terms.

i hate when i hear ppl going on about "oh capitalism isn't all that bad" because until you understand all the consequences and what it truly is you will remain ignorant of the true 'nature' of capitalism.

-jue

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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
    #3781605 -

juende said:
capitalism is the building off of free labour. when someone can make profit without paying for labour [fully] then that is capitalism. making the most.


How do you feel we should determine what labor is worth? And how are people not "fully" paid for their labor?

Quote:
its not that some people are stronger or more fit or whatever, it that they are being expoited for the work and labour that they do produce.


How is anyone exploited? Are they forced to take certain jobs?

Quote:
freedom?? on what terms.


How do you define freedom and how exactly does capitalism conflict with it? Really. I'm very curious.


Quote:
i hate when i hear ppl going on about "oh capitalism isn't all that bad" because until you understand all the consequences and what it truly is you will remain ignorant of the true 'nature' of capitalism.



Capitalism sucks, but I challenge you to show me a better system.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
    #3781606 -

Agreed ^ (what juende said)

the rich get rich from the poor being poor, and as a result the rich have more power

Edited by faslimy (02/14/05 11:52 PM)

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Re: capitalism [Re: faslimy]
    #3781615 -

faslimy said:
the rich get rich from the poor being poor, and as a result the rich have more power


How exactly do the rich get rich from the poor being poor? Please explain because it doesn't seem to me that it works that way in capitalism.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
    #3781629 -

well in a sense it is. a stronger person can make a weaker one do the work. subsequently gaining a profit in terms of the work that the weaker person/being did. the stronger party capitalized on the weaker, thus gaining. given taking advantage of one is considered immoral, but if you look at it in the sense that they were of less skill; then in sense it is totally justified. we need to distinguish necessary and sufficient here. this is what determines right. given things may not be morally right, they can still have ground for occurance. again i agree with capitalism being not evil. i would see evil as wishing to do harm to others, whereas you dont wish to do harm to others, you only wish to do good for your own self. if another party is put in a position of weakness that is only their own fault.

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Re: capitalism [Re: relativexistance]
    #3781649 -

relativexistance said:
well in a sense it is. a stronger person can make a weaker one do the work.


In Capitalism no one can force another to do something against their will so how exactly does this work?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: capitalism [Re: relativexistance]
    #3781655 -

you may not "wish" to do harm to others, but that doesn't seem to stop some ppl....

and as for some ppl putting themselves into a "potion of weakness". look broader. it is not just a group of workers at a factory or the kid at the store. these ppl are whole classes and sexes and that are being expoilted. and it is not because they are weaker.

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Re: capitalism [Re: z@z.com]
    #3781699 -

z@z.com said:
relativexistance said:
well in a sense it is. a stronger person can make a weaker one do the work.


In Capitalism no one can force another to do something against their will so how exactly does this work?


whoa. really. so yer telling me that one person/group cannot force another to do something against their will. hmmmm. really. have you been outside you house..ever. or read anything. cuz maybe i'm reading this wrong.
think. think. think. and then think again before you write something.

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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
    #3781705 -

wrong... here's the definition of capitalism:

an economic system based on private ownership of capital

An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Which is also the definition of a 6 year old girl selling lemonade on the sidewalk.... and then reinvesting her money to put up stands down at the school, the church, etc..

Capitalism is not defined by slave labor or screwing over someone else... it's taking a product someone else has sold you to make you ow product to fit the needs of others and making money off it... nothing wrong with it...

GREED is the problem.. not capitalism...

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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
    #3781718 -

juende said:
capitalism is the building off of free labour. when someone can make profit without paying for labour [fully] then that is capitalism. making the most.


Without paying for labor? I was under the impression that people under capitalism worked for wages. The entrepreneur, or capitalist, takes financial risks by investing his or her money in labor and the means of production with the intention of creating profit. The capitalist pays his or her employees whatever he or she decides their labor is worth to them. I don't suppose you're going to argue that labor(or anything else) has an objective value, are you? Entrepreneurs risk their own money to pay these workers, so why shouldn't they decide how much they're willing to pay? If the worker does not agree with the wages one company offers, they are free to seek employment elsewhere.

Quote:
its not that some people are stronger or more fit or whatever, it that they are being expoited for the work and labour that they do produce. freedom?? on what terms.


Exploited? They are given an opportunity to earn money in exchange for their labor. Who are you to decide what's good for them and what isn't? They made a choice. It may not be a choice you or I would want to make, but the worker has decided that they are better off for having made that decision, or else they wouldn't have made it. Freedom is peacefully making one's own choices without coersion.

Quote:
i hate when i hear ppl going on about "oh capitalism isn't all that bad" because until you understand all the consequences and what it truly is you will remain ignorant of the true 'nature' of capitalism.

-jue


I've read Marx. I've read several books criticising capitalism. I've taken quite college courses with liberal professors who had plenty of disdain for capitalism. I grew up in a liberal family that adamantly supports the welfare state. I once considered myself a socialist. But I grew out of it. Capitalism is by no means perfect, but it is the least coercive system that exists today(albeit not in its pure form), and is the best guarantee of financial prosperity. I'm afraid it is you who is ignorant of the true nature of capitalism.


--------------------

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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
    #3781730 -

juende said:
whoa. really. so yer telling me that one person/group cannot force another to do something against their will. hmmmm. really. have you been outside you house..ever. or read anything. cuz maybe i'm reading this wrong.
think. think. think. and then think again before you write something.


You know, instead of just acting arrogant and condescending, you could try to explain to someone why they are wrong. Or can you?


--------------------

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Re: capitalism [Re: z@z.com]
    #3781736 -

z@z.com said:
juende said:
capitalism is the building off of free labour. when someone can make profit without paying for labour [fully] then that is capitalism. making the most.


How do you feel we should determine what labor is worth? And how are people not "fully" paid for their labor?
uh. if you are not being paid or recognized for the work you do or your place [or role in this capitalistic society] as awhole class or race or gender and someone else is benefiting from it than that work that person has done is worth something.

Quote:
its not that some people are stronger or more fit or whatever, it that they are being expoited for the work and labour that they do produce.


How is anyone exploited? Are they forced to take certain jobs?
its not taking certain jobs. as if it were as simple as if little bob and jane could just 'work harder and get a better job'

Quote:
freedom?? on what terms.


How do you define freedom and how exactly does capitalism conflict with it? Really. I'm very curious.
all our rights have little fine print to it


Quote:
i hate when i hear ppl going on about "oh capitalism isn't all that bad" because until you understand all the consequences and what it truly is you will remain ignorant of the true 'nature' of capitalism.



Capitalism sucks, but I challenge you to show me a better system.


oh that is such a common response. so many ppl i've talked to will after a while cop out and say well if this sucks show me something better. that is not how things work. sure lets just toss out what we have now and start over. i'll make sumthing up real quick,

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Re: capitalism [Re: Silversoul]
    #3781756 -

Paradigm said:
juende said:
whoa. really. so yer telling me that one person/group cannot force another to do something against their will. hmmmm. really. have you been outside you house..ever. or read anything. cuz maybe i'm reading this wrong.
think. think. think. and then think again before you write something.


You know, instead of just acting arrogant and condescending, you could try to explain to someone why they are wrong. Or can you?


i'm not trying to be condescending. but to say that ppl cannot be forced to do something against their will...i mean c'mon, do i really need to explain it. do i have to go into things like rape,sweatshops, domestic voilence, slavery, poverty etc... think. yes i think that we should think before saying shit like "no one is forced against their will". sorry if that offends you.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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