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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Anonymous

Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Xlea321]
    #3151329 - 09/18/04 03:17 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

This is taking simplicity to it's most moronic level.

it is indeed. unfortunate that you can't understand it even now.

i understand that this maybe be asking too much, but could you please answer a single simple question for me....

if a "sweatshop" fires a worker, is that worker then better off?

Edited by mushmaster (09/18/04 03:30 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Xlea321]
    #3151349 - 09/18/04 03:26 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Do you have a consistent position on this or not?

my statements on this issue have been consistent. if you believe i've made contradictory assertions, feel free to quote them (please refrain from fabricating quotations, as you've done here, and provide citations of statements i've actually made). they're all on record. if you are unable to do that, i suggest you quit making unsupported claims about what i've said.

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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: ]
    #3151480 - 09/18/04 04:14 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

something i feel needs adressing;

WHY are there so many people willing to work in these conditions?

there seems to be tons of people in other countries living as beggars.

what happened to the agricultural roots?

at some point the people in question must have been more self sufficient.
at some point their populace grew too dense and then there was scarcity.

at that point if it was me, id stop breeding.

retread said;
"If "The Government" were some massive nameless entity that produced funds magically without taking them from people, that might be an OK idea. However "the government" in America gets its money from the people that live here and I don't think we have a need or an obligation to give these people money."

actually, the govt DOES magically produce funds(money).
go read about the federal reserve system and or search for fractional banking.

it seems to me our current capitalist system serves only one purpose;
to allow us to expand industry beyond the natural limits of the planet.

poverty is really not about money.
its about resources;
money is a tool for people to force other people to acuire resources and or to force them to do for u, what you would have had to do yourself.
violence was used before to set up this system, where violence is now less nessisary to come to the same end.

money doesnt serve any life giving functions inherintly tho, as im sure all of u know.
so what is stopping these people from directly acuiring what they need for life?

is there not enough resources in their habitat?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Edited by BleaK (09/18/04 04:15 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: z@z.com]
    #3153143 - 09/19/04 11:22 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

He said that no libertarian has ever supported child labor

He also said child labour was a feature of third world sweatshop labour. As anyone with even the faintest grasp on reality is aware.

Remember "Alex(tm) Sweatshops"?

No, I don't run any sweatshops. Are you denying child labour is a feature of sweatshop labour throughout the third world? Are you that dishonest?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Xlea321]
    #3153650 - 09/19/04 07:40 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

quotations alex, let's see some quotations. it's all on the record. if i've made inconsistent statements, go ahead and provide some citations. stop making unsubstantiated claims about what others have said.

looks like i'll have to repeat my question:

if a "sweatshop" fires a worker, is that worker then better off?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: ]
    #3153672 - 09/19/04 07:46 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Oooooo. Nice one.


--------------------

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: ]
    #3154835 - 09/20/04 12:29 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

quotations alex, let's see some quotations

Why not clarify your position now? Do you support sweatshop labour with brutal suppresion of unions, hellish working conditions and child labour? Last month you said no. This month you appear to be saying yes.

if a "sweatshop" fires a worker, is that worker then better off?

If a 12 year old in one of those sweatshops is offered $50 to suck the boss's cock, is that worker then better off? What if he invites a few of his american friends around who also pay the child well to have sex with them? Is that employee then worse or better off?

Do you have any concept of the dignity of human life?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Xlea321]
    #3155081 - 09/20/04 09:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I think the anti-globalization crowd tends to judge third world
people's situations through their own eyes.

I can understand how a "first-worlder" who is used to eight hour
workdays sitting behind a desk, having access to medical care, having
food in his stomach, and having a nice house would be appalled at
someone working for a few cents in a dusty factory for 16 hours a day.

However, when a person lives in a country with a practically non-
existent economy, where they can either eak out a living as a farmer
(working very hard and all day long) or earn much more working in
a factory, it becomes clear why so many people choose to work
these jobs. It is the best available option for them.

I still think it is not right that American companies operate in
countries that are not free. I believe that the citizenry of any
country has the right to influence lawmaking that will regulate
economic behavior. When you don't have that freedom, you don't have
as much power to influence the "workplace", and abuses might occur.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3155265 - 09/20/04 10:42 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

(working very hard and all day long) or earn much more working

The pay these corporations offer is often far below the minimum wage in those countries tho. What was the standard of living before globalisation? Has Nike made the population any richer?

I still think it is not right that American companies operate in

I don't mind them operating either. It's the utter disregard for human suffering, the intimidation, killing union workers, paying way below minimum wage. There's no need for it - it's simple greed and hatred.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Xlea321]
    #3155403 - 09/20/04 11:29 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

:blah:

answer the question alex. a yes or no will do.

still waiting on those quotations.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: ]
    #3155428 - 09/20/04 11:38 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Don't expect anything but evasion, equivocation, changing of the subject and outright lies. The man is as dishonest as the day is long during the summer solstice above the Arctic circle.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: ]
    #3155797 - 09/20/04 01:09 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

answer the question alex. a yes or no will do.

:drama:

It may for you mush. For anyone with any sense of human decency it doesn't. Are you really so filled with hatred and greed that human suffering has no meaning for you?

still waiting on those quotations.

Which quotations?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Xlea321]
    #3155865 - 09/20/04 01:27 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

come now alex. don't go accusing me of being full of hatred and greed. what i'm trying to do is expose a simple reality... a harsh reality, but a reality nonetheless. the fact is that people voluntarily associate themselves with so-called "sweatshops" because these businesses provide them with better opportunities than they would otherwise have. this is something that even people with political views similar to your own accept. if you had the intellectual honesty to actually address the question i asked, instead of emotionalizing this debate, you'd see that as well.

the question, again:

if a worker is fired from a "sweatshop", are they better off after being fired than they were before?

Which quotations?

quotations of contradicting statements which i've made.

for instance, if i said, "libertarians oppose all multiples of 3" and then said, "the numbers 9 and 12 are amongst those most favored by libertarians", then this would be contradictory. you've claimed that i've made contradictory statements... i'm asking you to be decent enough to provide some proof. capiche?

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: ]
    #3158741 - 09/21/04 12:17 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Then you are an avid proponent of sweatshop labour? You can see absolutely nothing wrong with horrendous working conditions, child labour, brutalising and killing union organisers, beatings and paying less than the minimum wage?

And I presume this is the kind of society you would like America turned into if the extreme capitalist lunatics you worship come to power?

you've claimed that i've made contradictory statements

No need. You've now made it perfectly clear you are a fervent supporter of non-unionized sweatshop labour where people work in brutalised regimes and work in horrendous conditions. If you want to deny you once said you supported the right to unions then go ahead. I've lost interest in pointing out your dishonesty.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Evolving]
    #3159114 - 09/21/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Don't expect anything but evasion, equivocation, changing of the subject and outright lies. The man is as dishonest as the day is long during the summer solstice above the Arctic circle.




--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Anonymous

Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Evolving]
    #3159278 - 09/21/04 09:36 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

yep.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: ]
    #3159289 - 09/21/04 09:39 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm..this is cryptic seeing as I've had evolving on ignore for 6 months. Can I take a wild guess here and assume he's posted a completly off-topic personal attack and you're agreeing with him?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: Xlea321]
    #3159440 - 09/21/04 11:09 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

you can take him off ignore if you want to read what he said.

why don't you answer the question alex?

seriously. it's a yes or no question.

i'll tell you why you won't answer it...

because there is an ounce of reason somewhere in you that knows that "no" proves my point, and "yes" is indefensible.

and you still keep claiming that i've made contradictory statements, but still no proof eh?

why not?

i'll tell you why... because you can't. because i made no such statements.

and you know it.

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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3159801 - 09/21/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

:blah:

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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Sweatshops and Globalization [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3160170 - 09/21/04 02:09 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

usefulidiot said:
:blah:


:thumbup:


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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