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Capitalism or Communism? Which is better?
    #1652592 -

The ownership thread had me wondering.

Which do you guys think is better?

I say capitalism. I just don't see where communism has worked.

Although we are far off track with all of the social programs, foreign aid, and taxes, capitalism still produces the most prosperous societies.

It also feeds ambition like nothing else I can think of right now.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1652765 -

Capitalism produces the most material wealth, which creates a much wider variety of classes which cause their own problems (ghetto's, corporate criminals, greed). Capitalist societies seem to lack virtue..

But i couldnt comment about communism, it clearly has its flaws, but im not nearly as familiar with it.



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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: PDU]
    #1652790 -

Socialism in its pure form is ideal through the Marxist thinkers eyes.

Communism as it has been demonstrated throughout the world is not the pure Marxist form. In pure socialistic society everyone is equal: equal income, equal community interaction and basically no way to "succeed." But in a communist society would their be a desire to succeed or would their be an acceptance of equality?

That is question that hasn't been answered due to communist leaders not stepping down in their position to become one with the society.


At least, that is what I recall from my basic Sociology class discussion on Socialism (communism).


I personally feel a pure communist state would be cool if applied to a hippy-like society. But that might be seen as "a step back in evolution".


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AH HA....

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1652883 -

Well, communism...would be life on a commune, but most commune's eventually die out. In order to be successful a commune would need to have people with the absolute final goal of doing "whats best for everyone" and in this day in age, greed is prettymuch bred into people making that fairly impossible. It seems to me when there is more available to people than just "living" most get bored at working their ass off and just surviving, when they could be working their ass of and enjoying the "luxeries" of modern technology.

However, if you look at tribal cultures..

They arnt strictly communist (as they have tribal leaders, shaman, etc.) BUT they do live in a tight nit community, with the common goal being the survival of the community. All work together, fairly equally, to achieve this goal. In other words, everyone pull's their own weight, and everyone gets by with out much of a segregated upper, or lower class. This is pretty much a working example of communism.

Communism doesnt seem to work unless the only alternative is death without the community.



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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: PDU]
    #1652912 -

capitalism is definitly better. more freedom.

for communism to function, the government needs to have total control over the people's lives.

now you can bitch all you want about corporate control, but it aint shit compared to communist government control.

I would way rather live in a meaningless, alienated, consumer, materialistic capitalist society than live in a society where government politics dominates your social reality, and you are forced to fall in line and act like everyone else.

capitalism provides more freedom and individuality, even though it is also conducive to an unhealthy vapid life, at least you can change your social situation, all you need is $$$$$$.

anyways, communism is just a sham, its just an intensified version of capitalism. ie- china.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: PDU]
    #1652933 -

Maybe both are needed at one time or another during a species social evolution.

Capitalism at first because of the explosive growth it can provide.
During this phase the species will develop technology very rapidly. Much chaos during this phase due the complex interactions between different social groups.

Then once our technology has delivered us from many of the problems we now face. Such as obliterarting poverty. With the information age coming to an end, people will hopefully be far more wise.

At what point in our social evolution do you think our pursuits will orient themselves more to the good of the group, than to the individual? Will communism work then?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1652935 -

Communism is just like capitalism, but with the good parts of capitalism removed, and the bad parts amplified a hundred times.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1652945 -

i would rather live in anarchy than in communism.

fuck authority. duuuuude.

although, I guess it depends who was in power, if I (or a like minded individual) were in power, I would be a perfect benevolent ruler, so communism would be awesome.




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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/22/03 02:07 AM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653013 -

What's the difference? They're both Cannibalism.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Adamist]
    #1653020 -

no, i would classify anarchism to be: mandibleism

(hands, claws, various mandibles of all sorts)

and communism as: reverse-rectifection

(super-imposed freedom, based on a dreamy communal fallacy)


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/22/03 03:02 AM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1653193 -

the smurfs were commies


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KB

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653224 -

You'd get a better response in the Politics, Activism and law forum -- or maybe not, since it has been thrashed out repeatedly there and maybe folks are tired of it by now.

To answer the question -- which is better (better as opposed to perfect), Laissez-faire Capitalism is better. Laissez-faire Capitalism is nothing more than people doing whatever they please as long as they don't forcibly interfere with anyone else doing whatever they please. The sole function of government in a Laissez-faire Capitalist society is to prevent people from interfering with this freedom -- cops and courts to handle internal offenders, military to handle external offenders. That's it, that's all. Note that the government has no power whatsoever over any aspect of the economy, either -- not even the coining of currency.

Communism or Marxism or Socialism or whatever other variant you prefer cannot work except possibly in a fairly small community of like-minded individuals. The reason it can't work is that it ignores human nature. When some members of such a society choose not to behave in an altruistic manner, force is inevitably required to ensure they do. As soon as the government starts initiating force against its constituents rather than preventing them from initiating force against others, the question of which system is "better" is answered.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1653264 -

Monarchy...
"it's good to be the king" :grin:


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lucid]
    #1653460 -

ohhh soooooooooo many ways to look at this, but the main problem with communism is the fact that everyone gets the same amount, but with capitalism, there's often people who go without, so communism would work if it weren't for the fact that greed is an inherent (spl?) human trait, there's not much we can do to change it :-/ oh well.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1653502 -

I'm anti-oligarchy, pro liberty and pro democracy. Guess that rules out capitalism.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1653572 -

I prefer communism, because at least it has a possible future. capitalism is just a race to the bottom. libertarians just want to get down there faster.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Malachi]
    #1653574 -

Quote:
capitalism is just a race to the bottom.



How that?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653578 -

well, markets need to keep expanding and expanding or people stop making money. hence the world wide imperialism of europe/america. eventually all the good stuff (nat. resources) is gone and there's no one left to fuck over. this is the bottom which capitalism is headed toward.

of course I'm talking about capitalism in practice, if we had listened to adam smith our 'capitialism' would be much different. basically, either capitalism or communism would work if only they where strongly liberal (i.e. free education (real education), democratic, etc).


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Malachi]
    #1653585 -

I don't agree with that at all. If you got a certain market share with your business, and that was comfortable for you, and it never changed, you always kept the same amount of customers, why would you stop making money?

All of the resources will never be gone, because we will eventually leave this planet. But even while we are still hear, new resources are developed all of the time.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653607 -

I think the best possible system is a balanced system, capitalism and socialism (democratic of course).

like scandinavian countries, and to an extent, canada.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1654727 -

Both suck. There needs to be a new paradigm.


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"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Sev]
    #1654839 -

until you can provide a new paradigm, choose one or the other.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1654852 -

>until you can provide a new paradigm, choose one or the other.
Dictator ! :grin:


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lucid]
    #1654887 -

How about freedom?


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: PDU]
    #1654892 -

>How about freedom?
hmmm... there's a novel idea...but not for the
plebians tho... much to dangerous...


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lucid]
    #1654911 -

This is politics.  Wrong forum guy. :wink:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1654937 -

Anarchy is the one and only system that ensures complete freedom. Anything else is unacceptable to me. If you are a person who believes in pure freedom/wants pure freedom, you are an anarchist, you just may not know it. You cannot have pure freedom under any 'system'.

That being said Communism is definately the better of the two. It is tried and true and almost never failed throughout history. Capitalism has failed repeatedly. In fact, it has failed everytime it has been attempted. I gues that means; 'we're next'.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1654940 -

I think both of the two systems form distinctly different societies, with equally different philoshopical views. 

What you think is best says alot about you.

Can't it stay in here. :confused: 


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lateralus]
    #1654944 -

When has communism succeeded?

And capitalism failed?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1654949 -

>And capitalism failed?
just read the (as yet unpublished)
"Rise and Fall of the American Empire...  :tongue: 


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lucid]
    #1654988 -

communism has never failed....interesting. i guess ill just pick up my history book and...oh...USSR, China, North Korea!

when has capitalism failed, let me check...oh EVERYWHERE CIRCA 1929.

how is anarchy complete freedom? are you free to live in peace? not if someone comes and robs you. yes yes yes.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1655052 -

It isn't really a matter of which is better. The fundamental premise of corporate free market(rigged for the rich) capitalism is that resources are infinite and there to be exploited for short-term profit. The environment, peoples welfare (ie all the things that make life worth living) are all of no importance compared to short-term profits.

Since we live on a planet that isn't infinite, capitalism will destroy the planet sooner rather than later. All we can hope is that there's enough left for life on earth to survive by the time capitalism collapses.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lucid]
    #1655060 -

It hasn't fallen. And what we have isn't capitalism. At least not in its true form. Many aspects of today's society are pure socialism.



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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1655067 -

I only said that communism has a better track record... 'Its tried and true and almost never failed throughout history'. I dont personally agree with either capitalism or communism.

And I pose that yes, capitalism has failed. Already. Look at our current global situation. If you don't see that its failed, my opinion is: you're blind.

How is anarchy complete freedom? You dont ever have to answer to anybody except yourself. That is the definition of freedom.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lateralus]
    #1655100 -

ok i'm no history buff so dont make fun of me but
we must have started out in a state of anarchy right?
although i think anarchy would be kool, it would never last
people find streanth in numbers, we need the rest of the pack to survive
with that in mind, capitalism doesnt work, the rich get richer, but still need the poor to survive, if everyone had they're way in a capitalist society nobody would do shit and we would die. its a game for power, enslaving our own, wasting our resources, making survival harder each day. if communism was done right the world would be a better place, just mt 2 cents


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KB

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Kenny Bus]
    #1655140 -

"It isn't really a matter of which is better. The fundamental premise of corporate free market(rigged for the rich) capitalism is that resources are infinite and there to be exploited for short-term profit. The environment, peoples welfare (ie all the things that make life worth living) are all of no importance compared to short-term profits."

that is plain incorrect, you are ignoring the consumer-corporate relationship. corporations are the slaves of consumers, what ever consumers want, corporations do. if consumers are intelligent, educated and care about the environment, so will corporations. look at all the new marketing trends popping up nowadays that are directed towards eco-conscious consumers. thusly, capitalism is plastic, it changes as social consciousness changes.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1655268 -

the right answer is always in the middle.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Malachi]
    #1655296 -

plastic. plastic like pro-tool robots. being disected by a giant mechanism designed to construct plastic re-dertimination generators.


plast
-----ic.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1655692 -

capitalism is good if you want freedom, socialism is good if you want equality.

communism, in which people are free to do whatever they want with their labor, money, and property, and voluntarily choose to share it amongst the community, following an ethic of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his necessity', would be the best arrangement i think. in such a system, the government follows the same hands-off approach as in libertarianism, but instead of keeping property, people share everything (voluntarily).

whether a society (or parts of it) is libertarian or communist is not something determined by the government; it does the same in both 'systems'. it is the people that organize differently. i think it's far more likely for most people to keep their property instead of voluntarily sharing everything, so i don't think communism has much of a chance of ever existing on a wide scale.

there could be small voluntary communist communities within a larger libertarian nation however.

i'd like to see communism, but any system which counts on everyone do do something which they aren't obliged by ethics to do, without forcing them to do it, doesn't sound like it has much of a chance of existing on a wide scale.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1655804 -

what ever consumers want, corporations do.

Maybe in terms of if consumers want Nike shoes with one swoosh rather than two swooshes.

For everything else coporations will care about short-term profit. If they can make tremendous profits by destroying the amazon rain forest it will be destroyed. If it is cheaper to dump toxic pollutants in the sea, that is where they will be dumped.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1656335 -

wrong. if consumers want ecologically sound products, companies that make ecologically sound products will thrive

exhibit a- the current skyrocket of "organic" food products.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1656455 -

atomikfunksoldier said:
wrong. if consumers want ecologically sound products, companies that make ecologically sound products will thrive

exhibit a- the current skyrocket of "organic" food products.


Completely correct and an excellent example.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1656562 -

yeah, thats the great thing about capitalism, that most people dont understand yet........the people are in control. all people need to do is mobalize and organize consumer unions, and they can dictate the actions of industry. its allready started in germany, im sure it will hit canada within the next 10 years.

think about it. if you live in a community of 50,000 people, and 10,000 of those people belong to a consumer union, if they make a demand...for example: they want subway to use 75% less packaging, subway has to either do what they say, or lose 20% of its business. people just have to co-operate.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/23/03 06:14 PM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1656594 -

Communism might have spread if US didn't have it's panties up in a bunch and start wars in Korea and Vietnam in order to "Contain Communism." If communism was let free, Europe would have been communist after WW2 and so would Africa and the rest of Asia. Americas would be safe because they would "Contain Communism" and close themselves off and die the fuck off.

The bad thing that would have happened is that Stalin would have had a son or another crazy faggot who rules with an Iron hand. He would then do the same shit Stalin did, kill kill kill, greed greed greed. Or other leaders would pop up in other countries and try to sieze power. In other words communism is a fairy tale and will not work because we are GREEDY FUCKERS AND I WANT MONEY SO FUCK YOU ALL.

Capitalism is way better because we profit off the poor and get rich. Even if it sux for the poor it is the way of life for humans. We kill and steal and that is alright.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1656694 -

Quote:
capitalism is definitly better. more freedom.

Freedom has nothing to do with communism/capitalism.  It's true that there weren't many freedoms in communist Russia, but that's because of the people in charge, not because it was against any communist principles.  Incidentally, in the capitalist country of the US, we're slowly losing our freedom of speech, our freedom of reproductive choice, our freedom of privacy, our freedom to own guns...  again, it's up to the people in charge.
Quote:
for communism to function, the government needs to have total control over the people's lives.

Not true.  They simply need to have control over people's place of work.
Quote:
now you can bitch all you want about corporate control, but it aint shit compared to communist government control.

People who argue against corporate control are generally talking about corporate control of the Government.  So this argument is kind of meaningless.
Quote:
I would way rather live in a meaningless, alienated, consumer, materialistic capitalist society than live in a society where government politics dominates your social reality, and you are forced to fall in line and act like everyone else.

Communism has nothing against individuality.  You can dress how you like, and listen to whatever music you choose.  And freedom of speach is NOT against any communist principal (although many communist leaders have been against it).
Quote:
capitalism provides more freedom and individuality, even though it is also conducive to an unhealthy vapid life, at least you can change your social situation, all you need is $$$$$$.

True, if you've got the $$$$$ you can change things in a capitalist society, but poor capitalists are S.O.L.  Whoever's got the $$$$ controls what the media.  And again, communists have nothing against individuality.
Quote:
anyways, communism is just a sham, its just an intensified version of capitalism. ie- china.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but I'll assume that's because of my own ignorance.  :confused:


By the way, I'm not saying communism is better.  I'm just trying to ensure people aren't making too many false accusations against communism.    :rasta:         


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1656744 -

Quote:
Laissez-faire Capitalism is better

The problem I see with Laissez-faire Capitalism is that the most successful companies will eventually become monopolies. And once they're monopolies, they no longer need to do those things that made them successful (like charge competetive prices). And while Laissez-faire proponents argue that monopolies can always be dethroned by new entrants into the market, I have a very difficult time believing that, because there are so many barriers to entry that a monopoly can employ, such as predatory pricing (temporarily lowering prices so much that any new competition will go right out of business).


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1656759 -

Quote:
I don't agree with that at all. If you got a certain market share with your business, and that was comfortable for you, and it never changed, you always kept the same amount of customers, why would you stop making money?

If all those things happened, you'd be right.  But in any capitalist system, if a company ever gets comfortable with its market share, it will quickly be pushed out of business by a company that wants to get bigger by expanding into your comfort zone.  That's just how capitalism works.  You're forced to keep growing by pushing others out of business, and if you don't, they will do it to you!  :shocked: 


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: downforpot]
    #1656763 -

Quote:
Capitalism is way better because we profit off the poor and get rich. Even if it sux for the poor it is the way of life for humans. We kill and steal and that is alright.

At least we got an honest person here.  :wink: 


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1656869 -

"At least we got an honest person here"

yeah, because im a filthy capitalist.....

"Communism has nothing against individuality. You can dress how you like, and listen to whatever music you choose. And freedom of speach is NOT against any communist principal (although many communist leaders have been against it)."

yes, inherently, communism has nothing against free speech or individuality, but for communism to work, people need to think communaly--- ie- about the community first, individual second. How does the government insure this? by restricting speech and individual freedom. In every single communist state this fact is demonstrated.

sure, we could sit and discuss our idealist versions of reality, but thats not me....i tend to focus on what has been demonstrated on this planet, and what I have noticed, is that people living in communist countries have less freedom, there is no debate over that.

sure, that can be linked to american global activities, but what it comes down to is this:

communism==greater focus on community==community is more important than the individual

capitalism==greater focus on individual==individual is more important than community.

and using america as an example of a capitalist system where individual freedom is deteriorating is silly, because there are countless capitalist systems where individual freedom is advancing.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657305 -

Quote:
what it comes down to is this:

communism==greater focus on community==community is more important than the individual

capitalism==greater focus on individual==individual is more important than community.

I agree with your statement and the rest of your post. I think it's this selfish attitude that might actually explain why so many Americans could care less when we kill people in other countries and destroy their environments; because if it makes us better off, fuck everyone else. But this arrogant and selfish attitude could backfire someday. We are starting to see signs that the international community is starting to turn against us and our "who cares" attitude (such as France and Germany). No country in history has ever successfully controlled a significant portion of the world for long, and I don't think we will either. As we keep expanding our reign of control, I think international opposition against the US will just continue to grow.

Countries like France and Russia have proven that when there is enough of a gap between the rich and poor, and when the rich take great measures to ensure the poor don't ever get rich, the poor will rise up through revolution. As America continues to make it more and more difficult for the poor to succeed, I wonder how long it will be before a revolution occurs in America...

Quote:
and using america as an example of a capitalist system where individual freedom is deteriorating is silly, because there are countless capitalist systems where individual freedom is advancing.

I agree with you again! I think you missed my point though - I wasn't trying to say that capitalism leads to less freedom, I was simply trying to show that it is irrelevant to freedom (and I agree with you that historically, communist countries have been less free).


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1657329 -

i agree, freedom is inherent in neither systems, its all about how the citizens and government use the system.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657356 -

wrong. if consumers want ecologically sound products, companies that make ecologically sound products will thrive

I think if you asked most consumers over the last 30 years whether they wanted the rainforest destroyed they would have said No. So why is it well on the way to being destroyed? This power of the consumer idea doesn't seem to be working very well does it.

exhibit a- the current skyrocket of "organic" food products.

It's increasing in America yes, but seeing as it was almost nothing 10-20 years ago that's to be expected. Whether it will ever approach the percentage of the food market that isn't organically grown is another story. Will developing areas of the world ever be able to afford organic food?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1657371 -

you'd have to ask south americans who buy vegetable crops and animal products grown on rainforest land cleared for agriculture and grazing.

funksoldier's right on this one. what the buyers will buy, the makers will make, and the sellers will sell. it's all up to the buyers (except in the case of government-subsidized markets).

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1657380 -

So why is the rainforest getting destroyed? Why is the sea polluted? When did consumers request that?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657414 -

Incidentally, what happens if consumers don't request ecologically sound products hard enough? If they're too busy living their own lives to check whether every product they buy is "ecologically sound"? What if they can't afford "ecologically sound products"?

How is this theory going to work in the developing world? Are you going to have a company saying "Buy our new ecologically sound product - only $50" while another company offers it's version for 10 cents? Are you going to say "It's not capitalism's fault if they won't spend $50 (that they havn't got) on our ecologically sound products - it's the consumers fault".

It's not going to work is it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1657450 -

I gotta agree with Alex. Very few consumers want rainforests destroyed. But since companies don't have to mark their products with labels like "this product destroyed part of a rainforest", consumers will buy the goods without knowing any better.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1657662 -

hahaha, rainforests.

well, you see, I own one acre of rainforest in south america, back in the 80's, when the rainforests were the eco-catch-phrase of the month, someone thought it would be a great idea to sell the rainforest to concerned westerners, and consequently a huge chunk of it is protected. If this would have caught on, and more western consumers got interested, the whole rainforest would be protected.

consequently, consumers control the world. and actually cornholio, you are wrong, eco-safe labels are getting more and more popular, so look out for them.

my theory is rock solid, your petty attacks are poorly formulated.

heres an idea that will work if you want to save the dwindling rainforest. create a fast-food company (a mass appeal product for all the fat, stupid americans/canadians/brits/mexicans to gobble up) in your advertisments say that, for every ten dollars we make, we give 50 cents to a fund that protects the rainforest.

if consumers are educated about the importance of rainforests, and they care....boom! you just saved your precious little rainforest.

think about it, you can market this to impressionable kids.

does consumer X want to buy:

A- a burger
b- a burger that saves the world.

you be the judge.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/24/03 02:02 AM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657995 -

Quote:
my theory is rock solid, your petty attacks are poorly formulated.

Ok, time for a little lesson in logic. The Spirituality and Philosophy group has a sticky thread called ?Philosophy Links?. The posts in that thread contains good links describing common fallacies of logic:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Each of your statements commits one or more of these fallacies. Let me explain:

Quote:
hahaha, rainforests.

You start by using the appeal to ridicule fallacy. Laughing and ridicule add no strength whatsoever to your argument. I can do the same. Big deal.

Quote:
well, you see, I own one acre of rainforest in south america, back in the 80's, when the rainforests were the eco-catch-phrase of the month, someone thought it would be a great idea to sell the rainforest to concerned westerners, and consequently a huge chunk of it is protected.

This is known as a red herring . You introduce material that has no relevance to the argument to divert attention. You might even be committing the ad hominem fallacy, where you try and persuade someone to accept a statement you make, by referring to your particular circumstances, and the appeal to emotion fallacy, whereby you hope to get people on your side by showing what a ?good guy? you are by buying an acre of rainforest (though I admit these last two fallacies aren't as strong because I don't know the intent behind your red herring).

Quote:
If this would have caught on, and more western consumers got interested, the whole rainforest would be protected.

This one is loaded with logical fallacies. First of all, let?s say every person in America DID care enough to buy an acre of land. Then 250 million acres would have been purchased. But the rainforest has about 2.5 billion acres remaining (even more back in the 80?s). So even if everyone DID care enough to buy an acre, they still would not have even come close to protecting the rainforest. Additionally, we don?t know what percentage of people were even aware of this program, what their financial situation was, or how many people truly grasped how serious the threat was.

Quote:
consequently, consumers control the world.

First of all, your logic up to now is filled with logical fallacies. But lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that all of your previous statements were sound. I still don't see how you could arrive at your conclusion. If consumers had the ability to protect the rainforest, does that mean they control the world? No, it simply means they have the ability to protect the rainforest! What's the connection?

Quote:
and actually cornholio, you are wrong, eco-safe labels are getting more and more popular, so look out for them.

Sigh. This is a strawman fallacy, where you misrepresent what I said. I never said eco-safe labels weren?t becoming more popular, I said eco-damaging labels weren?t being used. If a label doesn?t say eco-damaging, the average consumer would have no idea if the product was doing damage to the environment or not (just because it doesn't say eco-safe, doesn't mean it's eco-damaging)

Quote:
my theory is rock solid, your petty attacks are poorly formulated.

This is about as childish as arguments get. Let me demonstrate. ?Oh ya, well your theory may be rock solid, but mine is even MORE solid! SO THERE!!!? If you have a good argument, let the argument speak for itself. Saying you have a strong argument means nothing ? anyone can do that.

Quote:
heres an idea that will work if you want to save the dwindling rainforest. create a fast-food company (a mass appeal product for all the fat, stupid americans/canadians/brits/mexicans to gobble up) in your advertisments say that, for every ten dollars we make, we give 50 cents to a fund that protects the rainforest.

if consumers are educated about the importance of rainforests, and they care....boom! you just saved your precious little rainforest.

think about it, you can market this to impressionable kids.

does consumer X want to buy:

A- a burger
b- a burger that saves the world.

you be the judge.

Again, the average consumer couldn?t care less if things were presented this way (this would only appeal to the hard-core environmentalists). If instead they had a choice between

A- a burger
b- a burger that ruins the world.

I would guess that the average consumer would be MUCH more likely to pick A. Just my opinion, but do you see the difference?


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1658051 -

So why is the rainforest getting destroyed? Why is the sea polluted? When did consumers request that?

every time somebody buys meat or grain from land that's been cleared for grazing and farming. every time someone buys a product which in some way pollutes the ocean.

people don't pollute the planet and carve out peices of it just for the hell of it, they do it because it's profitable. it's profitable because people are buying products and services which pollute.

for instance, if people started having a greater concern for oil consumption and engine emmisions, they'd start buying smaller, more efficient cars. manufacturers would in turn build smaller, more efficient cars. they wouldn't try to keep selling 10 mpg gas guzzlers if they wanted to stay in business.

everything that companies do, they do it because it'll make money. the only way something will make money is if people are gonna pay for it. consumers control the market.

i don't see how this is so difficult to understand.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1658081 -

cornholio: that was boring.


I dont care for your arcane linguistic terms, they serve no purpose in this argument, and only detract from your point.

all of your replies were inneffectual, and you ignore truth just to point out your boring lameness.

all of your replies revolve around the idea that consumers are uneducated/apathetic. Which, of course you didnt mean to.....proves my point, consumers have all the power, if consumers were educated and cared about environmental issues, they would buy environmentally-sound products.

but fuck that, you dont even need compassionate or educated consumers, you just need good marketing, if you can brainwash the public into thinking that eco-friendly products are cooler and better than non-eco-friendly products, then you can save the rainforest.

this is a very basic concept, you stop giving a corporation money, and they die. you give a corporation money, and they thrive. I dont know where you live, but where I live (vancouver) fair-trade coffee is super-trendy.

thusly, western consumers support equality through consuming a product


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/24/03 08:43 AM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1658234 -

for instance, if people started having a greater concern for oil consumption and engine emmisions, they'd start buying smaller, more efficient cars.

And what if the consumers are too busy living their lives, or simply don't have the interest to educate themselves about the myriad products available, precisely how they affect the environment and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives?

What happens then?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1658334 -

then they buy things like gas-guzzling cars, enormous houses with huge lawns, etc.

people are poorly informed and apathetic, and that's where the problem lies.

it's not evil corporations pushing these products on people. people want SUVs. they want big houses. they want factory-farmed meat and sweatshop-made clothing. and you can't blame it all on advertizing. supply conforms to demand.

tell you what... go start up a business which sells ecologically sound and socially consious products that no one wants or will pay for. no amount of advertising will keep you from going under very quickly.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1658550 -

Well everyone on earth isn't going to turn into an eco-warrior tomorrow. Putting the responsibility on the consumer isn't going to work. So we can forget about that idea.

The only option with a chance of working is to go to the source and punish the corporations for polluting the environment. Not with meaningless slaps on the wrists - make the directors personally liable to long jail sentences. That's the only way anything is going to change.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1658689 -

As far as I am aware, this is a meaningless discussion since there has never been a valid communist country. The people in China and Russia used the communist language to fool people and gain power, but that was the only use those people had for it. The moment they were in power, the idea of communism was instantly subverted to the retention of power by those same people.

The one guy was right, human's are inherantly greedy (it seems like) and once money is gone the only thing to be greedy for is power. That's why rich people go into politics, and some people just dont give a fig about money in the first place and go right to power.

The problem inherent in communism is not the greed of man, though - it is the idea that one person who produces a lot will give up almost all he produces to people who do not produce anything or as little as possible. It would work, perhaps, in an isolated community where survival of the community depends on everybody working together, but otherwise I think it would serve to merely diminish the zest of building somthing (business, inventions, etc.) because you know the bulk of your work will be absorbed by the community. Wanting to keep a portion of what you produce is not necessarily greed, but willingly giving it away is perhaps to much to expect of the human race right now.

As far as capitalism goes, the consumer will choose, but supposedly the government will push things forward for the good of the people, NOT FOR THE PROFIT OR CONVENIENCE OF BUSINESS! Obviously, for the good of the people has little to do with how the American governemnt operates, because they don't do anything for the good of the people (in ANY regard, rights, ecology, limits on busienss) until the people are in the streets screaming, "It would be good if you did this or else!"

Only when the screaming angry mobs gather does our government act on behalf of the people. If I am wrong in this assumption, please correct me, but I cannot think of a single thing the American government has done willingly and pre-emptively. So, neither system, is perfect, but atb least a democracy has a constitution that has at least some power, and more importantly a democracy has anegative feedback form of popular power where when the people do start screaming they are at least marginally listened to instead of being gunned down.

That does not preclude a communist government from having a constitution, but as I said there has never been a true communist government or nation anyway, so we have no comparison to make.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1658917 -

Quote:
cornholio: that was boring.
I dont care for your arcane linguistic terms, they serve no purpose in this argument, and only detract from your point.

Sorry.  That post was intended for someone interested in logic.

Quote:
all of your replies were inneffectual, and you ignore truth just to point out your boring lameness.

A statement like that means nothing without backup.  Hell, I can just say that too.  ?Your statement was ineffectual.?  But now I?ll back my statement up ? the reason your statement was ineffectual is because you didn?t support it.  You just made a claim and left the reader hanging.  And just because you find logic boring doesn?t make it invalid.

Quote:
all of your replies revolve around the idea that consumers are uneducated/apathetic. Which, of course you didnt mean to.....proves my point, consumers have all the power, if consumers were educated and cared about environmental issues, they would buy environmentally-sound products.

Actually, I completely agree with you here.  If consumers were educated and cared about environmental issues, they WOULD buy environmentally sound products.  But most of them have no idea what damage is being done by the goods and services they buy (hell, I have no clue which products are destroying the rainforests)

Quote:
but fuck that, you dont even need compassionate or educated consumers, you just need good marketing, if you can brainwash the public into thinking that eco-friendly products are cooler and better than non-eco-friendly products, then you can save the rainforest.

Again, I completely agree with you!  Doesn?t that prove the power is actually with the corporations and their marketing departments???

If you find logic boring, then forget about the above statements - I?ll appeal to your mode of arguing - I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG, SO THERE!!!  :lol:  (Do you like that better?) 


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: drfrei]
    #1658921 -

Thanks for bringing the discussion back on topic, drfrei. I totally agree with your arguments against communism, but I think the same arguments can also be applied against capitalism. You said:

Quote:
The problem inherent in communism is not the greed of man, though - it is the idea that one person who produces a lot will give up almost all he produces to people who do not produce anything or as little as possible.

Doesn?t this happen in capitalism? Factory workers (and most other workers for that matter) are making thousands of dollars worth of a product per hour and get compensated with a measly $10 or whatever per hour. Just about everything they produce goes to the corporation.

Quote:
It would work, perhaps, in an isolated community where survival of the community depends on everybody working together, but otherwise I think it would serve to merely diminish the zest of building somthing (business, inventions, etc.) because you know the bulk of your work will be absorbed by the community.

The same is true in a capitalist society. Engineers are also paid by the hour, and the patents they develop automatically go to the corporation. What is their motivation to be creative when the company is the one profiting from their creativeness?

Quote:
Wanting to keep a portion of what you produce is not necessarily greed, but willingly giving it away is perhaps too much to expect of the human race right now.

Again, by now you see that unless you?re the owner of a company, everything you produce goes to the company, and you only get to keep a measly hourly wage. So I wouldn?t say it?s too much to expect, I?d say it?s exactly what?s happening. Wouldn?t you agree?


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1658981 -

Quote:
What is their motivation to be creative when the company is the one profiting from their creativeness?


1. A raise.
2. A promotion.
3. Job satisfaction.
4. Personal pride.

I think 1 & 2 are what you were looking for though.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659065 -

Cornholio writes:

Factory workers (and most other workers for that matter) are making thousands of dollars worth of a product per hour and get compensated with a measly $10 or whatever per hour.

But they can't make (and sell) thousands of dollars worth of product per hour without the factory. A blacksmith working with his own bellows forge and anvil is free to sell all ten of the horseshoes he makes in a day and keep all the money from those sales, but if he decides instead to work in a factory where the machinery purchased by the factory owner allows him to make a thousand horseshoes a day by pushing buttons and pulling levers, that's a different story.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: drfrei]
    #1659087 -

drfrei writes:

As far as I am aware, this is a meaningless discussion since there has never been a valid communist country.

Nor has there ever been a valid Laissez-faire Capitalist country. The original question was a hypothetical one, not a historical one.

As far as capitalism goes, the consumer will choose, but supposedly the government will push things forward for the good of the people, NOT FOR THE PROFIT OR CONVENIENCE OF BUSINESS!

In Capitalism, the government pushes nothing forward. All it does is protect the rights of its constituents by preventing people from initiating force against other people.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659109 -

Cornholio writes:

Freedom has nothing to do with communism/capitalism.

Incorrect. Freedom has everything to do with communism/capitalism.

Incidentally, in the capitalist country of the US, we're slowly losing our freedom of speech, our freedom of reproductive choice, our freedom of privacy, our freedom to own guns... again, it's up to the people in charge.

The United States hasn't been Capitalist for a very long time now. Strictly speaking, it was NEVER Capitalist, although it was the closest thing to it the modern world has yet experienced.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659125 -

Cornholio writes:

The problem I see with Laissez-faire Capitalism is that the most successful companies will eventually become monopolies.

Incorrect. There is no way for a company to become and stay a monopoly without government intervention unless it provides the most fantastic product at the most rock bottom price with great service, in which case -- who is harmed?

The "Myth of Monopolies" has been debunked countless times, several times in this forum alone. I really don't feel like running through the whole argument again. Do some reading.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1659357 -

Quote:
they can't make (and sell) thousands of dollars worth of product per hour without the factory. A blacksmith working with his own bellows forge and anvil is free to sell all ten of the horseshoes he makes in a day and keep all the money from those sales, but if he decides instead to work in a factory where the machinery purchased by the factory owner allows him to make a thousand horseshoes a day by pushing buttons and pulling levers, that's a different story.

I agree with you.  But how many jobs are there in today's world where one can make a living working on his own?  A small handful, but not nearly enough for everyone.
Quote:
Freedom has everything to do with communism/capitalism.

Don't leave me hanging like that, brother!  I'm totally interested in how you came to that conclusion!  :eyemouth:

Edit: Doesn't anybody believe in backing their arguments up?  I already provided reasons why I DON'T think it matters.
Quote:
The "Myth of Monopolies" has been debunked countless times, several times in this forum alone. I really don't feel like running through the whole argument again. Do some reading.

Actually, I did quite a bit of reading before just before I made my post (articles that were both for and against laissez-faire).  Based on the arguments presented from both sides, I came to the conclusion that it can't work, for the reasons I already gave:  the companies that provides the most fantastic product at the most rock bottom price with great service will become monopolies.  Once they are monopolies, they will lose their incentive to continue doing the things that make them great.  As monopolies, they would have substantial power and there would be many barriers to entry preventing new companies from dethroning the monopolies. 

Perhaps you should do some more reading?  Look at articles from the other side too. 


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Edited by Cornholio (06/24/03 06:49 PM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1659398 -

Quote:
What is their motivation to be creative when the company is the one profiting from their creativeness?

1. A raise.
2. A promotion.
3. Job satisfaction.
4. Personal pride.

I think 1 & 2 are what you were looking for though.


I agree, but don't communist societies offer raises and promotions to the people that do better? (Honestly I don't know if they do or not)


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659433 -

typically, communist countries offer promotions to people who fall in line with the government mandate. people who do what they are told.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1659478 -

The only option with a chance of working is to go to the source and punish the corporations for polluting the environment. Not with meaningless slaps on the wrists - make the directors personally liable to long jail sentences. That's the only way anything is going to change.

i'm afraid that political support for enacting tough environmental laws is pretty weak.

consumers can determine by their checkbook or their ballot the environmental consequences of the products they buy. as it stands right now, few people are doing either.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1660150 -

typically, communist countries offer promotions to people who fall in line with the government mandate. people who do what they are told.

Do you get promoted in corporations by not doing what you are told?? Surely a corporation is the ultimate example of dictatorship. One man at the top saying what goes.

Incidentally, going back to your previous argument, could you explain a way round the fact that most consumers are too busy living their own lives to research every product they buy in depth and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives? Do you still believe in abandoning the fate of the environment to the hope that suddenly one day everyone on earth will turn into an eco-warrior? Or do you think we should do something else while we wait for that day?



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1660250 -

Quote:
does consumer X want to buy:

A- a burger
b- a burger that saves the world.

you be the judge.



Capitalism is destroying the earth and you gave a good example for that.
Big parts of rain forests are being cut down to gain pastures to provide meat for burgers. Advertisers may present the second option like a "burger that saves the world" but in fact it destroys it as much as the normal burger it just makes the customers feel better.
Another good example is propaganda about paper against plastic bags. People think that by using paper bags help the environment but in fact it's quite opposite. Production of paper bags consumes 10 times as much energy as the production of plastic. Not to mention the forests being cut down.
Government interventions are always necessary to keep capitalism on track. Remember the Enron & co. creative accounting? Another example is the energy consumption. The gas price in USA is about 50% of the price in Germany. The non regulated gas price results in much higher consumption and makes alternative energy unprofitable, while in the Germany the government keeps prices high with taxes to reduce consumption and to get money for investing in cleaner sources of energy.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1660776 -

Cornholio writes:

But how many jobs are there in today's world where one can make a living working on his own? A small handful, but not nearly enough for everyone.

How would this be different under Communism? By definition, no one under Communism works on his own, or for himself.

Don't leave me hanging like that, brother! I'm totally interested in how you came to that conclusion!

It is self evident. The very definitions of Communism and Capitalism are based on personal freedom or the lack thereof. As has already been pointed out, under Laissez-faire Capitalism, every individual is left free to do whatever he chooses (always providing his actions don't forcibly prevent others from doing the same). Such is not the case under Communism.

the companies that provides the most fantastic product at the most rock bottom price with great service will become monopolies.

If any company has a chance to hold a monopoly, one who fills those requirements is the most likely to, yes.

Once they are monopolies, they will lose their incentive to continue doing the things that make them great.

If they choose to slack off, they will lose market share. This has been demonstrated countless times in the past.

As monopolies, they would have substantial power....

What "power"?

...and there would be many barriers to entry...

Such as?

... preventing new companies from dethroning the monopolies.

Name a single company that has ever achieved a monopoly for any length of time without government intervention. In a free market society, companies get "dethroned" all the time.

Edit: Doesn't anybody believe in backing their arguments up?

Backing up arguments means more than simply making vague assertions such as "they would have substantial power" and "there would be many barriers to entry".

Perhaps you should do some more reading? Look at articles from the other side too.

Over the last three decades I have read countless articles from both sides on the whole monopoly myth. The arguments from "the other side" simply don't stand the test of either logic or of historical fact.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: zeronio]
    #1660780 -

zeronio writes:

Capitalism is destroying the earth...

Incorrect. No one can deny that environmental damage is greatest in the totalitarian states. Pollution, poaching, species extinction, strip-mining, deforestation, etc. -- all are present to a much higher degree in China, the ex-USSR and ex-Soviet Bloc countries than in the Western nations.

Big parts of rain forests are being cut down to gain pastures to provide meat for burgers.

Bigger parts of the rain forest are vanishing due to the slash and burn tactics employed by subsistence farmers.

Government interventions are always necessary to keep capitalism on track.

Please provide a reasoned argument as to why this is so. Thank you.

Another example is the energy consumption. The gas price in USA is about 50% of the price in Germany. The non regulated gas price ...

The gas price in the USA is not even close to being "non-regulated". The percentage of the price paid at the pump by the consumer that goes towards taxes is substantial. There are LESS taxes on it than in other countries, true, but that is only a matter of degree, not of principle.

...results in much higher consumption...

And this is bad because...?

...and makes alternative energy unprofitable...

Why is it good for people (especially the poorer people in a society) to pay inflated prices for one of their essentials (i.e. energy)?

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1661549 -

Quote:
How would this be different under Communism? By definition, no one under Communism works on his own, or for himself.?

It wouldn?t be different. I?m not necessarily saying communism is better than capitalism, but I?m interested in a good debate where people don?t exaggerate or misrepresent the facts.

Quote:
It is self evident. The very definitions of Communism and Capitalism are based on personal freedom or the lack thereof.

I am only aware of restrictions on how businesses function. What restrictions are there on ?personal? freedoms (after a person goes home from work)?

Quote:
If they choose to slack off, they will lose market share. This has been demonstrated countless times in the past.

You mean like US Steel, Standard Oil, Microsoft? no wait? Government intervention was/is required for them
Quote:
What "power"? barriers to entry such as?

Since you say you are well educated on the topic, I assume you are asking this for the benefit of others on this board. Monopolies are generally very large, and wealthy corporations. They have the power to run massive and lengthy advertising campaigns that new entrants can't afford, they can survive long periods of predatory pricing, they enjoy economies of scale that new entrants don?t, they have substantial brand name recognition, they?ve been around long enough to become ultra efficient in their production and distribution methods (though as monopolies, they have no incentive to pass these savings onto their customers), they can force suppliers and distributors to sign exclusivity agreements ensuring they don?t supply/distribute to new competitors?

Quote:
Name a single company that has ever achieved a monopoly for any length of time without government intervention.

Microsoft, Standard Oil, US Steel?

Quote:
Over the last three decades I have read countless articles from both sides on the whole monopoly myth. The arguments from "the other side" simply don't stand the test of either logic or of historical fact.

Very logical arguments can (and have) been made for both sides. You say ?historical facts? support laissez faire economics? Any examples?


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1661866 -

alex: Incidentally, going back to your previous argument, could you explain a way round the fact that most consumers are too busy living their own lives to research every product they buy in depth and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives? Do you still believe in abandoning the fate of the environment to the hope that suddenly one day everyone on earth will turn into an eco-warrior? Or do you think we should do something else while we wait for that day?


See the problem with your argument, is that youarent attacking capitalism, you are targeting western consumers. The only problem in that instance is education, not capitalism. capitalism as a system does not inherently propel people to be apathetic and ignorant, but culture does.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1662049 -

I don't think education is the point. Even if you educate people they are too busy living their own lives to do endless research into every product in the marketplace and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives. It's never going to happen is it. The planet will be utterly destroyed long before that happens. In addition it's a bit much expecting people with barely enough money to feed and clothe themselves or their children to spend money saving the whales or a peice of land 4000 miles away. Sure people care about the environment but they also care about putting food on the table for their children.

We have to look at what is destroying the environment directly and stop that at source. If environmental protection means a cut in profits for capitalist corporations then a cut in profits it has to be. The trouble is the corporations don't want to hear this.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1662185 -

so whats your point, that people dont care about the environment? then regardless of the system, the environment will be destroyed if it can be causally related to human mentality rather than economic system.

do you think that there is no pollution in communist countries? countires devoid of corporations?


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1662216 -

Cornholio writes:

I?m interested in a good debate where people don?t exaggerate or misrepresent the facts.

As am I. Are you implying I have either exaggerated or misrepresented facts? Care to point out an example?

I am only aware of restrictions on how businesses function. What restrictions are there on ?personal? freedoms (after a person goes home from work)?

In Communism, there is no freedom to make your living how you choose. One must first make a living (i.e. survive) before one can exercise the freedom to smoke a joint.

Monopolies are generally very large, and wealthy corporations. They have the power to run massive and lengthy advertising campaigns that new entrants can't afford....

So what? Are you saying advertising prevents new entrants to a given field? That is incorrect. Please name for us a single company whose ads you have seen who has no competitors.

...they can survive long periods of predatory pricing...

Define "predatory", please. If you mean they are able to sell their products with tiny profit margins, does not the consumer win in such a scenario?

... they enjoy economies of scale that new entrants don?t...

And lack the nimbleness and flexibility of smaller companies. Note that it wasn't IBM who sparked the home computer industry, but Apple.

...they have substantial brand name recognition...

So what? How much brand recognition did MacDonald's have in the Fifties? At the time they started, the big name in the US burger market was A&W.

...they?ve been around long enough to become ultra efficient in their production and distribution methods...

So what? None of the techniques they use to increase efficiency are trade secrets. Any company can employ the same methods, or even improve on them.

... they can force suppliers and distributors to sign exclusivity agreements ensuring they don?t supply/distribute to new competitors?

Incorrect. They can't force anyone to do anything. If a supplier or distributor believes it is in his best interest to sign such an agreement, he may choose to do so, but is not forced to do so.

Microsoft, Standard Oil, US Steel?

Microsoft is not now and never has been a monopoly. Standard Oil was never a monopoly, although it did hold a pre-eminent position for over a decade. US Steel likewise was never a monopoly. Between 1901 and 1911 prices charged by U.S. Steel fell by an average of 11 per cent. Yet, its percentage of the nation's steel production declined precipitously from 61.6 per cent in 1901 to 39.9 per cent by 1920. Even at the height of U.S. Steel's "market domination" (not the same as a monopoly), its competitors flourished. By 1911 there were over 80 firms in direct competition with U.S. Steel and producing over 60 per cent of all iron and steel products sold in the United States.

You say ?historical facts? support laissez faire economics? Any examples?

Thousands. However, at the moment we are discussing your assertion that monopolies are possible without government assistance. They are not. There has never been a monopoly that endured for any length of time without government intervention. That is the meaning of my comment regarding history.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1663175 -

so whats your point, that people dont care about the environment?

No, people care about the environment. But there's a difference between caring about the environment and going to work for 12 hours and then coming home and spending your evenings researching the history of every product you buy, the business linked to it and campaigning for ecologically sound alternatives. Not to mention having the money to pay for ecologically sound alternatives when you've 3 kids to feed.

then regardless of the system, the environment will be destroyed if it can be causally related to human mentality rather than economic system.

Not if you tell the corporations doing the polluting that the directors will go to jail for thirty years.

do you think that there is no pollution in communist countries?

No I don't think that at all. The point is it's a fantasy to rely on the consumer to control pollution when there's a massive oil refinery down the road spewing tons of pollutants into the sea every day. You go to the refinery first and tell them to stop polluting.

countires devoid of corporations?

Does it matter who owns the oil refinery? If it's polluting, go to the source and make them stop. Don't depend on some mythical eco-warrior consumer stopping it for you.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1663201 -

Quote:
Capitalism is destroying the earth...

Incorrect. No one can deny that environmental damage is greatest in the totalitarian states. Pollution, poaching, species extinction, strip-mining, deforestation, etc. -- all are present to a much higher degree in China, the ex-USSR and ex-Soviet Bloc countries than in the Western nations.



I agree! I wasn't saying that other systems are better. :wink:

Quote:
Government interventions are always necessary to keep capitalism on track.

Please provide a reasoned argument as to why this is so. Thank you.



For example... Enron and other companies that were "too creative" in their accounting. The lack of control caused a disaster. Wasn't a government intervention necessary in that case?

Quote:
...results in much higher consumption...

And this is bad because...?

...and makes alternative energy unprofitable...

Why is it good for people (especially the poorer people in a society) to pay inflated prices for one of their essentials (i.e. energy)?




This is good for the environment and it seems that people are worried enough to support such politics. If the energy was cheap then the people would consume more and at the end pay the same amount of money for it. The only gain would be pollution & unnecessary luxury. (Not to mention related wars & terrorism. )
Current rate of nature exploataion & consumption will have to stop sooner or later and will result in a big economic crisis. Do you think that economy can grow in infinite?   

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: zeronio]
    #1663517 -

alex- so you are arguing that governments should regulate industrial pollution? yes?

that still has nothing to do with capitalism right? capitalism can still function with intense government regulation.

sure, its not pure (un-regulated) capitalism, but it can function. what you are arguing is not a structural problem with capitalism, you are arguing against governmental corruption/weakness.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1664148 -

The fundamental goal of capitalism is short-term profits. To maximise profits you assume infinite natural resources. If you start running your business on the basis of "We'll spend 6 million on environmental controls so our children will breathe clean air", or "Hey, lets leave that part of the rain forest for our children" some other business comes along, doesn't spend anything on the environment, maximises it's profits and puts you out of business. The goals of capitalism and the long term survival of the human race are mutually exclusive. Human beings want clean seas, corporations maximise profit by making seas dirty. What way is there around this?

Will government control really work with multi-national business who often have more power than most governments? Is some piss-poor government in Africa really going to tell a multi-billion dollar corporation what to do?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1664187 -

alex, this thread is titled, "Capitalism or Communism? Which is better?". you have illustrated a problem that occurs when democracy and capitalism are combined with apathy, selfishness, and lack of foresight; that being pollution.

pollution may be a problem in a capitalist system, but as pinkshark pointed out, pollution in people's republics has consistantly been significantly worse.

so when we ask, "Capitalism or Communism?" and we judge by environmental criteria, it would be rational to say "Capitalism".

there can be pollution problems in capitalism. they can be minimized through environmental laws, which if fair, consistant, and effective, should and could be passed, if not for some of the flaws of our democracy.

the problem of pollution in capitalism can be minimized, depending on the political climate. this is not so of the controlled economy, with it's widespread inefficiency and corruption.

you think businesses are bad polluters now? go to the former soviet bloc and see what happens when the government runs them.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1664218 -

I'll go with whichever system has the greatest chance of putting human beings and the environment before short-term profit. If there's a new form of capitalism that could be developed to address this then fine.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1664245 -

both human beings and the environment fair worse under socialism than capitalism, so there's your answer.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1664620 -

Wouldn't be so confident about that. The socialist new deal policies of 30's america were in many ways closer to communism than Stalin's dictatorship. Human beings did a lot better under that than the rampant capitalism of the 20's. Rampant capitalism which resulted in the catastrophe of 1929 leading directly to the second world war. The socialist policies followed in the UK and US post-war, up until Reagan, were a lot better for human beings, certainly far better than the rampant capitalism now being pursued. I don't think there's any real difference in the environment because you pursue communism or capitalism. It's more to do with the atitude of the people running the oil refineries.

Also very difficult to compare the soviet union and america as far as pollution as they were at very different stages in their economic development. By 1914 America was already close to being the most powerful country on earth, Russia was still feudal with little or no industry. To go from that to one of the most powerful industrial nations on earth within a few decades is going to have a big impact on the environment.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1666141 -

wrong again alex,

the second world war was caused by crazy nazis. DONT LOOK ANY DEEPER!


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1666217 -

Actually Germany was gettin smacked left and right by Britain and France. They wanted money from Germany for WW1. They took all of Germany's colonies in other countries. Then Hitler rose to power because Germans wanted a leader to bring their country back to the top.

After WW2 United States wanted to make sure that STALIN wouldn't do the same thing that Hitler did. Hitler took over countries, one by one after World War 1. Europe was in deep shit after WW2 and Stalin wanted that shit badly. If US didn't send money to BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND GERMANY then Europe would be a part of USSR and USSR would still be here.

So it was not only the nazis who started the war, other countries contributed by taking all the money from Germany, leaving them up for grabs. If this happend in US im sure some crazy fucker would take power.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: downforpot]
    #1666223 -

nope. crazy nazis from outerspace.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1666227 -

make a smarter comment.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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