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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Capitalism or Communism? Which is better?
    #1652592 - 06/22/03 02:09 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The ownership thread had me wondering.

Which do you guys think is better?

I say capitalism. I just don't see where communism has worked.

Although we are far off track with all of the social programs, foreign aid, and taxes, capitalism still produces the most prosperous societies.

It also feeds ambition like nothing else I can think of right now.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1652765 - 06/22/03 02:58 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Capitalism produces the most material wealth, which creates a much wider variety of classes which cause their own problems (ghetto's, corporate criminals, greed). Capitalist societies seem to lack virtue..

But i couldnt comment about communism, it clearly has its flaws, but im not nearly as familiar with it.



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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: PDU]
    #1652790 - 06/22/03 03:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Socialism in its pure form is ideal through the Marxist thinkers eyes.

Communism as it has been demonstrated throughout the world is not the pure Marxist form. In pure socialistic society everyone is equal: equal income, equal community interaction and basically no way to "succeed." But in a communist society would their be a desire to succeed or would their be an acceptance of equality?

That is question that hasn't been answered due to communist leaders not stepping down in their position to become one with the society.


At least, that is what I recall from my basic Sociology class discussion on Socialism (communism).


I personally feel a pure communist state would be cool if applied to a hippy-like society. But that might be seen as "a step back in evolution".


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1652883 - 06/22/03 03:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Well, communism...would be life on a commune, but most commune's eventually die out. In order to be successful a commune would need to have people with the absolute final goal of doing "whats best for everyone" and in this day in age, greed is prettymuch bred into people making that fairly impossible. It seems to me when there is more available to people than just "living" most get bored at working their ass off and just surviving, when they could be working their ass of and enjoying the "luxeries" of modern technology.

However, if you look at tribal cultures..

They arnt strictly communist (as they have tribal leaders, shaman, etc.) BUT they do live in a tight nit community, with the common goal being the survival of the community. All work together, fairly equally, to achieve this goal. In other words, everyone pull's their own weight, and everyone gets by with out much of a segregated upper, or lower class. This is pretty much a working example of communism.

Communism doesnt seem to work unless the only alternative is death without the community.



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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: PDU]
    #1652912 - 06/22/03 03:48 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

capitalism is definitly better. more freedom.

for communism to function, the government needs to have total control over the people's lives.

now you can bitch all you want about corporate control, but it aint shit compared to communist government control.

I would way rather live in a meaningless, alienated, consumer, materialistic capitalist society than live in a society where government politics dominates your social reality, and you are forced to fall in line and act like everyone else.

capitalism provides more freedom and individuality, even though it is also conducive to an unhealthy vapid life, at least you can change your social situation, all you need is $$$$$$.

anyways, communism is just a sham, its just an intensified version of capitalism. ie- china.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: PDU]
    #1652933 - 06/22/03 03:58 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe both are needed at one time or another during a species social evolution.

Capitalism at first because of the explosive growth it can provide.
During this phase the species will develop technology very rapidly. Much chaos during this phase due the complex interactions between different social groups.

Then once our technology has delivered us from many of the problems we now face. Such as obliterarting poverty. With the information age coming to an end, people will hopefully be far more wise.

At what point in our social evolution do you think our pursuits will orient themselves more to the good of the group, than to the individual? Will communism work then?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1652935 - 06/22/03 03:59 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Communism is just like capitalism, but with the good parts of capitalism removed, and the bad parts amplified a hundred times.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1652945 - 06/22/03 04:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i would rather live in anarchy than in communism.

fuck authority. duuuuude.

although, I guess it depends who was in power, if I (or a like minded individual) were in power, I would be a perfect benevolent ruler, so communism would be awesome.




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Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/22/03 04:07 AM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653013 - 06/22/03 04:57 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What's the difference? They're both Cannibalism.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Adamist]
    #1653020 - 06/22/03 05:02 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

no, i would classify anarchism to be: mandibleism

(hands, claws, various mandibles of all sorts)

and communism as: reverse-rectifection

(super-imposed freedom, based on a dreamy communal fallacy)


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Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/22/03 05:02 AM)


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OfflineKenny Bus
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1653193 - 06/22/03 10:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

the smurfs were commies


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653224 - 06/22/03 10:29 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You'd get a better response in the Politics, Activism and law forum -- or maybe not, since it has been thrashed out repeatedly there and maybe folks are tired of it by now.

To answer the question -- which is better (better as opposed to perfect), Laissez-faire Capitalism is better. Laissez-faire Capitalism is nothing more than people doing whatever they please as long as they don't forcibly interfere with anyone else doing whatever they please. The sole function of government in a Laissez-faire Capitalist society is to prevent people from interfering with this freedom -- cops and courts to handle internal offenders, military to handle external offenders. That's it, that's all. Note that the government has no power whatsoever over any aspect of the economy, either -- not even the coining of currency.

Communism or Marxism or Socialism or whatever other variant you prefer cannot work except possibly in a fairly small community of like-minded individuals. The reason it can't work is that it ignores human nature. When some members of such a society choose not to behave in an altruistic manner, force is inevitably required to ensure they do. As soon as the government starts initiating force against its constituents rather than preventing them from initiating force against others, the question of which system is "better" is answered.

pinky


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1653264 - 06/22/03 10:54 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Monarchy...
"it's good to be the king" :grin:


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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: lucid]
    #1653460 - 06/22/03 01:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

ohhh soooooooooo many ways to look at this, but the main problem with communism is the fact that everyone gets the same amount, but with capitalism, there's often people who go without, so communism would work if it weren't for the fact that greed is an inherent (spl?) human trait, there's not much we can do to change it :-/ oh well.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1653502 - 06/22/03 02:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm anti-oligarchy, pro liberty and pro democracy. Guess that rules out capitalism.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1653572 - 06/22/03 02:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I prefer communism, because at least it has a possible future. capitalism is just a race to the bottom. libertarians just want to get down there faster.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Malachi]
    #1653574 - 06/22/03 02:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

capitalism is just a race to the bottom.




How that?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653578 - 06/22/03 02:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

well, markets need to keep expanding and expanding or people stop making money. hence the world wide imperialism of europe/america. eventually all the good stuff (nat. resources) is gone and there's no one left to fuck over. this is the bottom which capitalism is headed toward.

of course I'm talking about capitalism in practice, if we had listened to adam smith our 'capitialism' would be much different. basically, either capitalism or communism would work if only they where strongly liberal (i.e. free education (real education), democratic, etc).


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Malachi]
    #1653585 - 06/22/03 03:10 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I don't agree with that at all. If you got a certain market share with your business, and that was comfortable for you, and it never changed, you always kept the same amount of customers, why would you stop making money?

All of the resources will never be gone, because we will eventually leave this planet. But even while we are still hear, new resources are developed all of the time.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1653607 - 06/22/03 03:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think the best possible system is a balanced system, capitalism and socialism (democratic of course).

like scandinavian countries, and to an extent, canada.


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