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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2987110 -

The current system we have now is considered to be a duel market system. This system inches slightly closer to a free market, but is still heavily regulated by the government. Since the government is so heavily involved, the U.S. economy is no longer a capitalistic society.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2987623 -

TaoTeChing said:
:wtf: If you're going to smugly laugh, please at least be correct.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...;o=&fpart=1

^^^^^^and that doesn't even factor in the fact that the libertarians like evolving, mushmaster, pinky, lds, ancalagon, ss7 and now i guess jesuschrist post more frequently too.


This is a matter of left or right not party affiliation.

political compass says otherwise


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2989877 -

By the definition you offer it seems then that the entire 'system' is anti-capitalist - and therefore many of us who desire change actually crave a true capitalism, meaning real free trade and a government uncorrupted by corporatism.

The governments that hold themselves up to be capitalist (doublespeak?) are therefore not truly capitalist, and neither is the drug war policy. The drug war supports their non-capitalist (anti-capitalist) stance and must therefore be anti-capitalist in the true sense.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2989929 -

the total harm caused to all human beings by the oil spill is very great. that is why we care about oil spills.

Is this the royal "we" mush? The oil companies clearly don't give a shit.

Are you saying that you would introduce rules to prevent the oil companies using enormous unsafe ships to protect a colony of puffins? You don't think they would say "This will force the cost of oil through the roof". What if a competitor said "We'll keep using the big ships and undercut the companies using the safe ships". Would you insist the government step in?

oil spills hurt people.

As much as the cost of oil skyrocketing?

what's more, the use of shitty old ships prone to oil spills is terrible for public relations and marketting purposes, so there are costs there as well for the company.

Nah mush. The odd colony of puffins drenched in oil off some remote costline isn't going to worry the oil companies. Certainly not enough to utterly destroy their ability to "compete" with other oil companies by investing in safe oil transportation. Nature has to suffer. That's capitalism.

if victims weren't fully compensated, it wasn't capitalism.

So is this some kind of fantasy capitalism that's never existed? You seem real keen on saying "Communism failed" even when we assure you totalitarian dictatorships arn't communism.

So in capitalism, everyone would be compensated fairly. Why? What if your competitor can make bigger profits by not compensating people fairly? He drives you out of business. After a few years, no-one is compensated fairly. That's capitalism.

in capitalism, you cannot just ship petroleum around the world in rusty old ships that are prone to break open and spill their cargo

So who stops you? You seem to think that with LESS government control than we have now the corporations will behave more responsibly? Did the corporations behave responsibly in the 19th century when they had a free hand to behave as they wished? The days of child labour, crushing unions, horrendous working conditions etc?

if you want to attack capitalism, attack a situation that is actually allowed to occur under a true capitalist system

Can you give us an example of a country with a true capitalist system? Or is this just a capitalism that exists in your mind?

let's talk about capitalism. can you do that?

Depends what you are referring to by "capitalism". You seem to mean something that has never existed on earth and has no similarity to any capitalist enterprise that has existed in human history. Can I talk about your capitalist fantasy? I'm not sure, you'd have to explain more about it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: CJay]
    #2990109 -

Was the Soviet Union truly communist? Just because a government claims to be something does not make it so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: CJay]
    #2990202 -

consider the spanish inquisition. it wasn't christian in the same way that the drug war is not capitalist.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2990309 -

Are you saying that you would introduce rules to prevent the oil companies using enormous unsafe ships to protect a colony of puffins?

no, the rules exist to protect people.

As much as the cost of oil skyrocketing?

there is a balance.

there is a cost (one that affects everyone, not just the oil company) to either upgrading to safer ships or choosing not to.

there will be a cost associated with choosing between one of two alternatives:

1. upgrading to safer means of petroleum transporation means a hike in prices for the consumer and reduced profits for the oil company.

2. not upgrading means that people risk the havoc caused by an oil spill.

either way, there is a cost. remember that the decision needn't be all of one of the other. it will be a balance between both. scarcely any amount of investment in safe transporation, no matter how expensive, will totally eliminate the risk (i don't suppose that you would like to see poor families freezing in the winter to make every puffin colony in the world 100% safe from an oil spill). choosing to use the cheapest, most dangerous method of transporation, in order to keep the apparent price of petroleum down, isn't that wise either.

there is a balance which will minimize the cost inflicted (upon everyone) by choosing between #1 and #2.

in the current situation, the oil companies must shoulder their entire share of the burden of action #1 alone, yet they are allowed to (unjustly) shift part of their share of the costs of #2 on other people. because the oil company is not required to pay their full costs of action #2, the balance is shifted in favor of action #2. hold the companies accountable for the accidents they may cause, and you will find the balance which minimizes the total costs inflicted by the choice between #1 and #2.

that is capitalism.

So is this some kind of fantasy capitalism that's never existed?

yes, the sort of capitalism i'm talking about has never fully existed. is that going to be your method of attack now?

You seem real keen on saying "Communism failed" even when we assure you totalitarian dictatorships arn't communism.

involuntary collectivism, of any sort, is totalitarian in theory. communism, even the "good" kind that exists only in theory, will still fail, because it throws economic sense into the wind, eliminating the incentive to produce and creating enormous amounts of waste by forcefully circumventing the price system.

So in capitalism, everyone would be compensated fairly. Why? What if your competitor can make bigger profits by not compensating people fairly? He drives you out of business. After a few years, no-one is compensated fairly. That's capitalism.

let's think about this one. because your competitor is also required to compensate people for losses, how does he use the fact that he doesn't as an advantage to drive you out of the market and then not compensate victims for losses?

Can you give us an example of a country with a true capitalist system?

nope. that doesn't mean we can't move toward it.

Depends what you are referring to by "capitalism".

the absence of force in the marketplace. free production and exchange of goods and services.

Edited by mushmaster (08/11/04 08:42 AM)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2991377 -

no, the rules exist to protect people

The environment isn't worth protecting by itself? How are you going to implement this? What if the area isn't populated? Does it still count? Who do you "compensate"? Everyone within 50 miles? 500 miles? Everyone on the planet?

there is a balance.

There always has been. Why do you think the oil companies always choose the one that maximises profit? That's capitalism.

because the oil company is not required to pay their full costs of action #2, the balance is shifted in favor of action #2. hold the companies accountable for the accidents they may cause, and you will find the balance which minimizes the total costs inflicted by the choice between #1 and #2.

But who IMPLEMENTS it? Government? What if a multi-billion dollar oil company fucks up an island somewhere. Does the island take on the oil corporations lawyers? Do you think they have much chance of success?

even the "good" kind that exists only in theory, will still fail, because it throws economic sense into the wind,

Hang on mush, even the WORST kind of "communism" under Stalin brought the Soviet Union from a third world country to an economic powerhouse capable of defeating the most powerful army the world had ever seen.

because your competitor is also required to compensate people for losses

How do you implement this mush? Some kind of "world government" who casts judgement on any oil company in any country on earth? What if the government in the US is hard on oil companies but the one in China isn't?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2992311 -

The environment isn't worth protecting by itself?

it is, but only to the extent that it helps human beings. if a particular environmental policy has an overall net effect that is negative across the entire human population, it is a bad policy.

if human beings are being hurt more than helped by an environmental policy, it is a poor one.

limiting pollution is not free. if we desired to completely eliminate environmental damage, we would all have to kill ourselves, lest we have to piss, shit, kill animals, and build fire. there is a certain amount of pollution that is tolerable. this amount is reached when we strike a balance between the cost of limiting the pollution and the damage that the pollution causes to the welfare of human beings.

when we reach this point, where costs to human beings is minimized, any more environmental controls would hurt us more than the pollution it aims to control, and any more allowed environmental damage would hurt us more than would taking the measures to prevent it.

we should not attempt to completely eliminate pollution at this point, nor should we get rid of any and all environmental controls. there is a reasonable balance which results in the least amount of overall harm to human beings. do you understand?

There always has been. Why do you think the oil companies always choose the one that maximises profit?

i've already explained this to you. the pollution caused is what is known, in economic terms, as an externality. because the oil companies do not absorb the cost of this externality, the equilibrium they arrive at is different from the one that is the most socially preferrable. if they were forced to internalize the externality, as they should and would be under a fully capitalist system, the amount of environmental control they would arrive at would be the one that would be the most socially preferable. it would be the reasonable course of action resulting in the least harm to human beings, as i explained in my response to your previous statement.

But who IMPLEMENTS it?

seeing that the costs of using dangerous ships outwiegh the costs of investing in safer modes of transportation, the oil companies themselves do. it's that damn profit motive in action.  :smirk:

How do you implement this mush? Some kind of "world government" who casts judgement on any oil company in any country on earth? What if the government in the US is hard on oil companies but the one in China isn't?

that's a problem that no domestic policy can fully address.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2994425 -

seeing that the costs of using dangerous ships outwiegh the costs of investing in safer modes of transportation

How do you figure? And who works out this "compensation" you keep talking about? What if the people on the coastline where the oil tanker breaks open only make 10 bucks a day? Does the oil company only have to recompense at their annual wage rate? That's the "free market" after all. You do understand that isn't going to affect the profits of a multi-billion dollar oil enterprise?

that's a problem that no domestic policy can fully address.

So in other words your theory is a busted flush. If the US government cracks down on oil spills, the oil corporation simply move to China. And if you introduce compensation related to the wealth of the people around the spill the oil companies re-route all their ships to use even more dangerous and unsafe routes around poor countries where the fines from spills are cheaper. Pointless.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2994946 -

How do you figure? And who works out this "compensation" you keep talking about?

the courts. it's called civil liability. it has nothing to do with the wages the victims earn either.

So in other words your theory is a busted flush.

it's as best as a domestic policy can do. tell me what domestic policy you think would effectively prevent other countries from doing the very same thing?

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? - also RE: mushmaster [Re: silversoul7]
    #2995187 -

I realise what you are saying - I also realise that under virtually every political model humanity has attempted to exist, we reach exactly the same impasse.

Therefore surely all governments are in the same dispicable league and politicians themselves (no matter the doctrine) are cut from the same shit stained cloth.

As is also the case with all major hierarchical institutions such as the churches of the world.

This is why I think the drug war is not only anti-capitalist it actually serves to protect this system of governmental and institutional one-upmanship over citizens/worshippers. This system of dominance by power addicts.

For no matter what the party, the ideology, or the church (and no matter how noble their precepts)- their actions bely their true character. And it is the same character.

Legalised psychedellics offer the opportunity of quelling the personality traits which currently grow to obscene proportions in this type of person (ie. simply put - power addiction). And as well as this they offer space for freedom of ideas, culture etc - this is basically an opportunity for Love to eclipse politics per ce. Which is the great fear of this dispicable league, and hence the greatest taboo. They want your consciousness, and they want it a certain way; they want dominion over others. (And their character type thrives on division - a kind divide and rule tactic)

Therefore the dark chaos that is the war they 'must' fight against unregulated cocaine + crack, is perfect for their needs. It is a fortification of their position; and fighting this war is perfect reasoning for them to explain one more 'good' reason we need them there in that andocratic position they cherish. As well as this it throws attention off their real drug fear, the psychedellics.

Generally speaking, the masses of the world simply want to trade fairly, to get along with each other and to get along with life - they want peace. The masses from any nation, no matter what political system they live in. People everywhere want the same thing.

So it would seem that the drug war is anti-partnership, and pro-dominance. And all the world's governments are pretty much too.

So as well as being anti-capitalist the drug war is a much deeper issue, it is actually anti-equality, anti-partnership, anti-freedom and basically anti-evolution.

What do you think?

Edited by CJay (08/13/04 11:32 PM)

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