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Xlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
#2977517 - 08/08/04 04:50 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The psychedelic movement was spreading like wildfire in the sixties. If it hadn't been shut down by the feds, it would have turned the world upside down for the better. Good point Leary. Psychedelics went hand in hand with left-wing views and rebellion against the capitalist right. Psychedelics were seen as a terrible threat by the capitalists. Nixon called Leary "The most dangerous man in America". The capitalists need a submissive workforce who can be intimidated and exploited for profit. Psychedelics have a terrible potential to encourage people to reject that.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
#2977537 - 08/08/04 05:23 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wonder if there is a psychedelic capitalist group anywhere? Where they get together and say "I tripped and saw a world where we only had to pay 12 year old girls in the sweatshops 10 cents a day and there were no government regulations to protect workers rights. Where we could ban unions and make them work in horrendous conditions and they were dropping like flies but like dude, it was still THIER CHOICE to work there dig? And we could award ourselves 500% payrises year on year and buy new houses and SUV's and go the mall every day. And we could chop down the rainforest cos the profits would be incredible. And anyone who, like, didn't want to work in the sweatshops would starve to death along with their families cos we don't want to pay tax's for welfare dude. What a trip"
Psychedelics don't tend to push capitalist values do they. Tends to be more about sharing and caring for each other and the environment doesn't it. The absolute antithesis of capitalism which places profit above everything.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
#2977795 - 08/08/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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You're a fucking genius Alex. You've got what i'm trying to say exactly.
I don't know how to prove what I believe to everyone else. All I can say is that I believe that if psychedelic drugs were legalized, they would affect society and the people in it very differently than they affect people now.
I believe that widespread accepted use of psychedelics would cause spiritual upheaval. People would begin using the drugs within a spiritual context. Spirituality, freedom and love would begin to become more and more important and materialism would become less and less important. I know you guys are saying that capitalism is not materialism, but you must admit that they go hand in hand.
Oh, and it's ridiculous to think that the entire human race would kill itself on the bad drugs(heroin, coke and meth) and never learn from those who had fallen before them. People would learn.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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vampirism
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
#2977819 - 08/08/04 09:50 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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hrm
psychedelics foster unmaterialistic views materialism has always existed capitalism can not exist without materialism ( the overly optimistic would disagree )
my opinion is that capitalism will not last too much longer. Why? I don't know. Will psychedelics have a part in it? Maybe. Or maybe just enjoying life, and seeing others enjoying life. Would we really need psychedelics to show us that?
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
#2977842 - 08/08/04 10:02 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think we do need them.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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vampirism
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
#2977849 - 08/08/04 10:06 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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but why?
Aren't the horrors of modern war, the companionship offered by truly good people, and the comfort of living enough to persuade people into living well? Or do we need psychedelics as a power punch to dethrone and bloody the "wicked" ?
I'm just a bit reserved about any Revolution.
If thats not what you mean, nevermind, what DO we need them for then?
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
#2978097 - 08/08/04 11:36 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said: This question depends upon what one sees as the specific definition of 'capitalism'. some define it as an entire ideology that is dependent upon and encourages materialism or the accumulation of private property, others (like most in this thread) merely equate it with the complete lack of regulation upon goods and services.
neither of those definitions would specifically preclude drug use...but it was a while back..when one of the neocon twits here said that "the free market is not anarchic"...so in that sense..the drug war is not anti-capitalist.. but not necessarily pro-capitalist either...
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Disregarding that semantic question, let me pose this question a different way. Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?
my own pet theory about that is that such problems are the fault of the fiat currency system more than anything else..since the money spent on drugs and adjutant expenses would tend to be depreciational..and as such create inflation...with hard currency..this would not be a problem... and then there is the real possibility that cheaper drugs will compete against more expensive products..resulting in downward pressure on wages.. however..no analysis has ever been done to prove it...
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Annapurna1
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
#2978138 - 08/08/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: The psychedelic movement was spreading like wildfire in the sixties. If it hadn't been shut down by the feds, it would have turned the world upside down for the better.
Good point Leary. Psychedelics went hand in hand with left-wing views and rebellion against the capitalist right. Psychedelics were seen as a terrible threat by the capitalists. Nixon called Leary "The most dangerous man in America".
The capitalists need a submissive workforce who can be intimidated and exploited for profit. Psychedelics have a terrible potential to encourage people to reject that.
thats not necessarily true..when the effects of the initial setting and attitude of the user are taken into account...such drugs might have encouraged leftist thinking in the 1960s simply because the users were pissed off at the capitalists for starting the vietnam war when they took the drugs...and while i do think leftward when im on acid..thats also the case when im sober...if LSD were to become legal tomorrow..it could just as easily make amerikkka even more neocon than it is now...
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silversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
#2978163 - 08/08/04 12:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said: I don't know how to prove what I believe to everyone else. All I can say is that I believe that if psychedelic drugs were legalized, they would affect society and the people in it very differently than they affect people now.
I know many people who simply can't handle psychedelics. I believe this would still be true if they were legalized.
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I believe that widespread accepted use of psychedelics would cause spiritual upheaval. People would begin using the drugs within a spiritual context. Spirituality, freedom and love would begin to become more and more important and materialism would become less and less important. I know you guys are saying that capitalism is not materialism, but you must admit that they go hand in hand.
If you are going to make such allegations, you might want to first define materialism. If materialism simply means buying things, then you are right. Capitalism and materialism go hand in hand. However, if by materialism you mean the prioritizing of material goods over people then you are dead wrong.
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Oh, and it's ridiculous to think that the entire human race would kill itself on the bad drugs(heroin, coke and meth) and never learn from those who had fallen before them. People would learn.
It's also ridiculous to think that if psychedelics were legalized that everyone would start doing them.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
#2978180 - 08/08/04 12:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: I wonder if there is a psychedelic capitalist group anywhere? Where they get together and say "I tripped and saw a world where we only had to pay 12 year old girls in the sweatshops 10 cents a day and there were no government regulations to protect workers rights. Where we could ban unions and make them work in horrendous conditions and they were dropping like flies but like dude, it was still THIER CHOICE to work there dig? And we could award ourselves 500% payrises year on year and buy new houses and SUV's and go the mall every day. And we could chop down the rainforest cos the profits would be incredible. And anyone who, like, didn't want to work in the sweatshops would starve to death along with their families cos we don't want to pay tax's for welfare dude. What a trip"
Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group where they say "I tripped and saw a world where we forcibly take money from people and give it to others while claiming to be compassionate, and we had the government control the economy so that people couldn't be productive without government permission, and we taxed the fuck out of everyone and claimed it was for their own good. Man, what a trip."
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Psychedelics don't tend to push capitalist values do they. Tends to be more about sharing and caring for each other and the environment doesn't it.
This does not contradict capitalism.
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The absolute antithesis of capitalism which places profit above everything.
That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
#2978192 - 08/08/04 12:19 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: The psychedelic movement was spreading like wildfire in the sixties. If it hadn't been shut down by the feds, it would have turned the world upside down for the better. Good point Leary. Psychedelics went hand in hand with left-wing views and rebellion against the capitalist right. Psychedelics were seen as a terrible threat by the capitalists. Nixon called Leary "The most dangerous man in America".
Psychedelics were seen as a threat by war-mongers who supported our actions in Vietnam. The fact that they considered themselves capitalist(though they weren't true capitalists by any stretch of the imagination) was incidental. Also, remember that these same people were opposed to Johnson, who was far from capitalist.
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The capitalists need a submissive workforce who can be intimidated and exploited for profit. Psychedelics have a terrible potential to encourage people to reject that.
And I suppose that instead they have the potential to encourage massive government intrusion in people's lives, huh?
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
Edited by silversoul7 (08/08/04 12:34 PM)
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Learyfan
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
#2978194 - 08/08/04 12:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm surprised that you think that I think psychedelics should be used to "bloody the wicked". It would be quite the reverse, i'm sure. Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values. Behavior change is what we're talking about.
Quote:
Anna said:
if LSD were to become legal tomorrow..it could just as easily make amerikkka even more neocon than it is now...
What do you base that on? You really think that if thousands and thousands of people had access to top grade LSD that it would cause them to think like John Ashcroft?
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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silversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
#2978219 - 08/08/04 12:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Learyfan said: I'm surprised that you think that I think psychedelics should be used to "bloody the wicked". It would be quite the reverse, i'm sure. Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values. Behavior change is what we're talking about.
Most behavior changes that people experience from psychedelics only last a day or two, unless they consciously try to stay in that state of mind.
Quote:
Quote:
Anna said:
if LSD were to become legal tomorrow..it could just as easily make amerikkka even more neocon than it is now...
What do you base that on? You really think that if thousands and thousands of people had access to top grade LSD that it would cause them to think like John Ashcroft?
It's not about causing anything. People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren't likely to change those ideas while tripping.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Learyfan
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
#2978266 - 08/08/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know many people who simply can?t handle psychedelics. I believe this would still be true if they were legalized.
That?s fine. They wouldn?t have to.
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If you are going to make such allegations, you might want to first define materialism. If materialism simply means buying things, then you are right. Capitalism and materialism go hand in hand. However, if by materialism you mean the prioritizing of material goods over people then you are dead wrong.
Yeah, the second one. Most people would no longer value money and objects over human life.
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It?s also ridiculous to think that if psychedelics were legalized that everyone would start doing them.
Everyone wouldn?t need to start doing them. Enough people would do them to start a very positive spiritual movement which would spread all across the globe. Even people who didn?t do psychedelics would begin seeing the benifit in the things that the trippers believe in.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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Ancalagon
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
#2978270 - 08/08/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Even people who didn't do psychedelics would begin seeing the benifit in the things that the trippers believe in.
Again, 'trippers' are not a uniform group. This board is a glaring example of that.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Learyfan
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
#2978285 - 08/08/04 01:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Most behavior changes that people experience from psychedelics only last a day or two, unless they consciously try to stay in that state of mind.
That would change if a strong movement was going on and was accepted by many others. Other people would also be changing their minds and it would be easier to stay in "the thought". Group mentality is powerful.
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It?s not about causing anything. People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren?t likely to change those ideas while tripping.
I strongly disagree.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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Learyfan
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ancalagon]
#2978296 - 08/08/04 01:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said:
Quote:
Even people who didn?t do psychedelics would begin seeing the benifit in the things that the trippers believe in.
Again, ?trippers? are not a uniform group. This board is a glaring example of that.
If a strong spiritual movement brought on by psychedelics took place, people who didn?t trip would begin to see the benifit of thinking and living the way the members of this peace movement do. It would be infectious.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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Xlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
#2978418 - 08/08/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group
I think socialist values of caring for your fellow man are far closer to psychedelic values. Certainly the capitalist ideal that greed is good, that profit comes before everything including human life, the environment etc is the complete antithisis of psychedelics. The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.
This does not contradict capitalism.
The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.
That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.
No, it's inherent in the capitalist system. If you own an oil company and sit there wringing your hands saying "We must build safer ships so we don't have oil spills", your competitor simply works with the unsafe ships, undercuts you, pays any pathetic fines imposed for spills, makes more profit and puts you out of buisness. Profit is all that matters. The individual doesn't really matter at all.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
#2978431 - 08/08/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren't likely to change those ideas while tripping.
The important thing is that psychedelics are going to open up a whole new world of possibilities for the young. Instead of the billions spent pushing the capitalist, consumerist ideal, a whole new value system will be available.
Taking psychedelics essentially tells people that "You are not your job. You are not the money in your bank account. You are not the car you drive. You are not how much money is in your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis"
That's why capitalism and psychedelics are always going to be at opposite ends of the scale.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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vampirism
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
#2978439 - 08/08/04 02:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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just one problem I might see here
I took psychedelics at a fairly early age. Living every day consistently dollar-to-dollar and such is simply not a possibility any more.
i'm not sure where the problem is, and don't know where i stand actually.. do you think capitalistic values will fall within the next 100 years?
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