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OfflineLearyfanS
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Is the drug war anti-capitalist?
    #2975217 - 08/07/04 12:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I was reading a post by Mushmaster in support group where he said that the drug war is anti-capitalist. I assume that he means because the government is passing up billions in tax money and then wasting tax money on fighting the drug war.

Here?s my opinion on it. The drug war is very capitalist. Why? Because it?s protecting the system by keeping people concentrated on materialistic goals. If drugs such as marijuana and psychedelics were legal, it would cause the system to collapse. It would change the values and behavior of millions and cause people to become less concerned with materialism.

The drug war wastes BILLIONS of dollars trying to stamp out drugs and it rejects BILLIONS of dollars in tax money but this is a small price to pay for the system. It wouldn?t be able to survive if millions of people realized that we?re all one and then started to live accordingly.






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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975244 - 08/07/04 12:15 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Personally, I think your premise that if mind-altering substances were legal everyone would wake up and realize we're all one, etc, is way off. But that is a subject for another forum. To answer your actual question, there is no way the war on drugs has anything to do with legitimate Capitalism unless you're using some asinine, counter-culture definition. A rational person can realize that Capitalism is not simply 'a system that encourages materialism and greed,' but is actually 'a system that encourages maximum freedom...so that you can pursue whatever it is you desire in life.' The drug war is extremely anti-capitalist.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2975283 - 08/07/04 12:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Personally, I think your premise that if mind-altering substances were legal everyone would wake up and realize we're all one, etc, is way off. But that is a subject for another forum. To answer your actual question, there is no way the war on drugs has anything to do with legitimate Capitalism unless you're using some asinine, counter-culture definition. A rational person can realize that Capitalism is not simply 'a system that encourages materialism and greed,' but is actually 'a system that encourages maximum freedom...so that you can pursue whatever it is you desire in life.' The drug war is extremely anti-capitalist.




Buddy you have no idea.

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: psikooz]
    #2975302 - 08/07/04 12:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for informing me. I had no idea that I had no idea. Appreciate it.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2975317 - 08/07/04 12:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think you can call capitalism a system that encourages maximum freedom...maximum freedom of trade, yes.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2975351 - 08/07/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Well then I guess it all comes down to weither or not you believe that psychedelic drugs have the potential to cause massive behavior change or not.






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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975369 - 08/07/04 01:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

They have the potential, sure, but I'm not sure if they would do that to most people. People who have bad trips are probably not going to think highly of psychedelics. A lot of people will have fun and be done with it, just like any other drug.

There's a lot of factors involved.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975393 - 08/07/04 01:10 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Even if they have the potential I don't think most people want to change.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: psikooz]
    #2975418 - 08/07/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psikooz said:
Buddy you have no idea.




He does show quite a bit more intelligence than someone who posts that he doesn't know what he's talking about, while not showing his own opinions, or reasons why the said person is incorrect.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975428 - 08/07/04 01:21 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It wouldn't be able to survive if millions of people realized that we're all one and then started to live accordingly.



If we were all one, we'd all have the same wants, needs, goals and desires.

We as a species will never be all one. Other than as a species.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975429 - 08/07/04 01:21 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The drug war is anti-capitalist. It is interfering in the free market in drugs. If you disagree, please explain how prohibiting the sale and purchase of goods is capitalistic. Please explain how taking accumulated capital away from people (asset forfeiture) is capitalistic.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (08/07/04 01:23 PM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2975439 - 08/07/04 01:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Good point. :thumbup:

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: newuser1492]
    #2975448 - 08/07/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Most people don?t want to change, but also most people do what everyone else is doing.

The psychedelic movement was spreading like wildfire in the sixties. If it hadn?t been shut down by the feds, it would have turned the world upside down for the better.

Even the people who didn?t do the drugs would be affected because of group think. Positivity, love and understanding would touch everyone. Some more than others, but still it would cause a desperately needed massive shift in consciousness.






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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975467 - 08/07/04 01:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

so how would positivity, love and understanding touch mindless drugged out sheeple?

Face it man, hippies may have been one step towards a proper age of aquarius, but they were nothing but a step. Most of them were rich mindless people who later turned into yuppies, betraying everything they had "learned."

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2975482 - 08/07/04 01:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

It wouldn?t be able to survive if millions of people realized that we?re all one and then started to live accordingly.



If we were all one, we?d all have the same wants, needs, goals and desires.

We as a species will never be all one. Other than as a species.




I can?t prove it, but what I mean is that our true nature is spirit and that we are all equal parts of one spirit. We reliquished our memory of this so that we can play this illusionary game in this physical world.

Only in the physical world are there differences between us. In the spirit world there is no "you" and "me". There is no "me" and "George Bush". We are one spirit.






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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975491 - 08/07/04 01:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Positivity, love and understanding are not anti-capitalist concepts.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2975496 - 08/07/04 01:41 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
The drug war is anti-capitalist. It is interfering in the free market in drugs. If you disagree, please explain how prohibiting the sale and purchase of goods is capitalistic. Please explain how taking accumulated capital away from people (asset forfeiture) is capitalistic.




It's capitalistic to prohibit the sale of substances which would most certainly cause a massive shift in values because people would begin to value material things less and less. That's dangerous to a materialistic society.

In the long run it's in the best interest of a materialistic society to prohibit the use of drugs which would kill the thought that fuels it.






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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975505 - 08/07/04 01:43 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Capitalism does not equal materialism (although the two do tend to go hand in hand).

Capitalism is free trade. The drug war is not free trade.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975511 - 08/07/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I don't believe in the spirit world.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2975514 - 08/07/04 01:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
so how would positivity, love and understanding touch mindless drugged out sheeple?

Face it man, hippies may have been one step towards a proper age of aquarius, but they were nothing but a step. Most of them were rich mindless people who later turned into yuppies, betraying everything they had "learned."




Most of the people who betrayed everything that they learned did it because they became confused, frustrated and just plain lost. Grace Slick said "It's hard to keep having faith in the movement when they keep picking off the leaders."

The government caused the movement to not work, and systematically re-brainwashed most of those people.






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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975515 - 08/07/04 01:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

the drug war is one of the greatest republican hypocrisies, in that it is totally communist.

But then again, so is the FDA.

As much as I disagree with the extreme communism of the drug war, On the other side of the spectrum you have doctors selling people harmful, addictive medication that they dont need under the guise of the hyppocratic oath. If all drugs were completely unregulated, I fear the consequences would be dire.

hopefully, some compromise between these positions can be reached. Mind-altering drugs have the potential of dynamite; they must be handled carefully.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975530 - 08/07/04 01:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
It's capitalistic to prohibit the sale of substances which would most certainly cause a massive shift in values because people would begin to value material things less and less.



Sorry, but you are waaaaaaaay wrong. Sounds more like statism, socialism or communism which rely on appeals to the collective and the enforcement of conformity. You still have not explained how prohibiting the sale and purchase of goods is capitalistic. You still have not explained how taking accumulated capital away from people (asset forfeiture) is capitalistic.

FYI, drugs are material things, they affect the physical and chemical function of the brain. Drugs are sold for money, people accumulate drugs for sale (the drugs are capital). People accumulate money (capital) from the sale of drugs. People invest in equipment (capital) to produce drugs. Do not conflate the desire to enforce conformity with the actions of capitalism, they are not the same.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2975532 - 08/07/04 01:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Positivity, love and understanding are not anti-capitalist concepts.




No, but in the end they cause materialistic values to fade away. That's dangerous to a capitalistic society. As deafpanda said, materialism and capitalism go hand in hand.

Quote:

LDS said:

I don't believe in the spirit world.




That's fine. I have no way of proving if it's real or not. But since everything on earth becomes one with with earth again when it "dies" I can only assume that the same thing happens to our souls if souls in fact exist.






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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975558 - 08/07/04 01:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Most people would eventually learn which drugs are most dangerous and then stay away from them. Especially since, if drugs were legal, factual information would be tought to the public.


Evolving: You may be right. I just think it's in the best interest of "the machine" to keep drugs which would destroy it, illegal.

Ok, i'm gone for tonight. I'll be back tomorrow.







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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975569 - 08/07/04 02:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Any adult should have the right to destroy himself in any way he/she sees fit. I, however, have no obligation to bail him/her out. Supersize me, indeed. Capitalism has nothing to do with it. It's a non-sequitur. And since when is this a Republican thing?????

"mind altering drugs have the potential of dynamite; they must be handled carefully." Really? And who will be deciding who is sane or insane enough to be allowed to take them? You??


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975657 - 08/07/04 02:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Capitalism is not the same as materialism.

That is all.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975668 - 08/07/04 02:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Evolving: You may be right. I just think it's in the best interest of "the machine" to keep drugs which would destroy it, illegal.



Very true, but what does that have to do with capitalism?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTao
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975705 - 08/07/04 02:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This question depends upon what one sees as the specific definition of 'capitalism'. some define it as an entire ideology that is dependent upon and encourages materialism or the accumulation of private property, others (like most in this thread) merely equate it with the complete lack of regulation upon goods and services.

Disregarding that semantic question, let me pose this question a different way. Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2975726 - 08/07/04 02:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see how it would have hugely negative consequences. Drugs would be taxed to fuck, new businesses would grow making drugs, accommodating drug users (shroom bars, maybe) and providing equipment and so on for drug use.

The fact drugs are prohibited comes from a lot of factors. A big one is the way altered states of consciousness are seen as being inherently wrong. Society thinks everyone would, er...go to pot.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2975727 - 08/07/04 02:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Disregarding that semantic question, let me pose this question a different way. Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?



It would most likely have a positive effect on the economy overall if drugs were legalized. However, there are certain special interest groups such as pharmaceutical companies and the liquor and tobacco lobbies who would stand to lose ground in such an event. Note that these special interest groups are deep in the pockets of the government, and that they are essentially trying to minimize their competition, which is an inherently anti-capitalist idea.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2975730 - 08/07/04 02:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Any adult should have the right to destroy himself in any way he/she sees fit.




OK. But would you really want to live in a country without an organization like the FDA, making sure your meat wasnt packed in unsafe conditions, making sure spoilable products have expiration dates, and attempting to prevent harmful addictive substances from being sold as medicine?

I in no way shape or form support the prohibition of recreational drugs, but organizations like the FDA are an example of necessary communism.

Quote:

And since when is this a Republican thing?????




I didnt mean to imply that republicans are solely responsible for the WOD (unfortunately the WOD is supported by idiots in all areas of the political spectrum), but they are the only party which endorses it while simultaneously claiming to be hardcore capitalists. Hence my usage of the word 'hypocrisy'.

Quote:

Really? And who will be deciding who is sane or insane enough to be allowed to take them? You??




sigh. back to this again. its obvious that religious and political leaders have fucked you in the past, making you think that you cant trust anyone. I dont trust most people myself either. But I do trust science, for it has given me air conditioning, transportation, telecommunication, and a myriad of other things that have actually worked to solve many of life's problems. No religious or political ideology has done for me what science has done.

If there is scientific evidence that methamphetamines are bad for almost everyone, that they destroy the liver and cardiovascular system, that they are nuerotoxic, addictive, and irreversably change behavior in very antisocial ways in the majority of people who take them, then why should they be allowed to be sold as medicine in any but the most appropriate of circumstances?

Sure, some people like the high and are well aware of the damage it does and dont care. I dont have a problem with that. I dont have a problem with meth being sold as a recreational drug as long as it is acknowledged by both the seller and the buyer how bad the drug is. EDIT: And as long as I dont have to deal with the consequences of the meth-head's decisions.

But do you realize how many practitioners are abusing the patient/doctor trust by recommending methamphetamines when they arent necessary or beneficial? I'm telling you, its an epidemic. How many kids today are diagnosed with "ADHD" just for being rowdy kids? How many gullible parents are trusting their doctors and putting their kids on these meds, causing their children lifelong problems? I was born in 81, and over half the people I know have been prescribed adderol or ritalin at one point in their lives, whether they needed it or not. Many of these people would never have taken that shit if it werent for the direction (and in the case of anyone under 16- forced administration) of doctors. Shit, my mother has my little brother strung out on that shit right now, the doctors have her soooo convinced that there is something 'wrong' with him. He's 13 and couldnt legally refuse treatment if he wanted to. By the time he's old enough to say no, the damage will have already been done. Do you think that's right?

You're so worried about 1984, but all I see is a Brave New World, and its being supported by greedy doctors and pharmacuetical companies who abuse their authority and trust to hornswaggle patients into taking unnecessary harmful medication.

I dont have an issue with meth being sold, I have an issue with how it is being sold. And I believe that organizations like the FDA need to step in and regulate, as scientific evidence compels them to do.

Edited by DoctorJ (08/07/04 02:55 PM)

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2975737 - 08/07/04 02:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?




I'm sorry but I don't follow at all. How could it possibly have a negative effect upon the economy as a whole? Legitimate manufacturing and farming jobs would be created in a new, thriving industry. The direct sale of drugs would also be beneficial. Can you elaborate upon the perceived negative consequences?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975738 - 08/07/04 02:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Most people would eventually learn which drugs are most dangerous and then stay away from them.




I see no evidence to support that.  If you put a rat in a room with two buttons- one of which dispenses food when pressed, the other of which dispenses cocaine when pressed, the rat will eventually quit pressing the food button and keep self-administering cocaine until it starves to death. 

Quote:


Especially since, if drugs were legal, factual information would be tought to the public.




by who?  The companies that market the drugs? 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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OfflineLothar121
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975796 - 08/07/04 03:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The drug war is both anti conservative and anti liberal at the same time.

Every side should support the repeal of it, conservatives citing fiscal responsibility, liberals citing personal liberty.

Where are the true liberals and conservatives?

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975801 - 08/07/04 03:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lothar121 said:
Where are the true liberals and conservatives?



Certainly not in the Democratic or Republican party.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975805 - 08/07/04 03:22 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lothar121 said:
The drug war is both anti conservative and anti liberal at the same time.

Every side should support the repeal of it, conservatives citing fiscal responsibility, liberals citing personal liberty.

Where are the true liberals and conservatives?




"If there's a new way... I'll be the first in line. But it better work this time."

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975810 - 08/07/04 03:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

A lot of liberals (At least in the UK) do actually support drug decriminalization.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2975853 - 08/07/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?




I'm sorry but I don't follow at all. How could it possibly have a negative effect upon the economy as a whole? Legitimate manufacturing and farming jobs would be created in a new, thriving industry. The direct sale of drugs would also be beneficial. Can you elaborate upon the perceived negative consequences?




well, this is all theoretical speculation, but I think that what LF is getting at is this:

People who are allowed to take psychedelic drugs, which are a cheap source of meaningful entertainment, will probably be less likely to go out to movies, nice restaraunts, and indulge in other consumer services. They will probably be less likely to be so concerned about 'keeping up with the joneses', which is a powerful psychological force that encourages rampant consumerism. It makes sense because a person who takes psychedelics regularly is less likely to be so concerned about trivial things, many of which are a large part of our economy. Fashion, for instance.

People who drink or snort coke on the other hand are going to be more interested in the superficial, materialistic things that make up a large part of the economy: luxury cars, being waited on hand and foot, fashion, interior decoration, etc...

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975867 - 08/07/04 03:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Capitalism is not the same as materialism.

That is all.




but the sudden abscence of materialism in a capitalist society could take a lot of money out of certain pockets which have come to depend on said money.

Edited by DoctorJ (08/07/04 03:49 PM)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975877 - 08/07/04 03:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?




I'm sorry but I don't follow at all. How could it possibly have a negative effect upon the economy as a whole? Legitimate manufacturing and farming jobs would be created in a new, thriving industry. The direct sale of drugs would also be beneficial. Can you elaborate upon the perceived negative consequences?




well, this is all theoretical speculation, but I think that what LF is getting at is this:

People who are allowed to take psychedelic drugs, which are a cheap source of meaningful entertainment, will probably be less likely to go out to movies, nice restaraunts, and indulge in other consumer services. They will probably be less likely to be so concerned about 'keeping up with the joneses', which is a powerful psychological force that encourages rampant consumerism. It makes sense because a person who takes psychedelics regularly is less likely to be so concerned about trivial things, many of which are a large part of our economy. Fashion, for instance.

People who drink or snort coke on the other hand are going to be more interested in the superficial, materialistic things that make up a large part of the economy: luxury cars, being waited on hand and foot, fashion, interior decoration, etc...



I take psychedelics, but I still shop at the mall, go to the movies, and eat out. Granted, I don't care about the latest fashion trends and whatnot, but I still consume. Even people who don't buy Abercrombie & Fitch still buy clothes, and even people who don't listen to N'Sync still buy music, and even people who don't drive a Lexus still drive cars. Plus, the average psychedelic user would contribute to the economy simply by buying drugs.


--------------------


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975887 - 08/07/04 03:51 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Doc, I understand your arguments, but you really have no basis of science to back it.

On a pure speculative note, I would argue that not everyone is going to go out and use drugs if they are legalized, therefore legalizing drugs would really not change anything.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975891 - 08/07/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, I didnt say psychedelic users werent consumers, merely that they apply their consumption to different things than non-psychedelic users. If psychedelic use were to become widespread, I predict that a lot of rich people would become poor and a lot of poor people would become rich. Not to mention the effect it would have on politics. In other words, the status quo would be disrupted, as it was in the 60's.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975895 - 08/07/04 03:53 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lothar121 said:
Doc, I understand your arguments, but you really have no basis of science to back it.






correct, it was totally specualtive, although there is some anthropological evidence to my claim.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975917 - 08/07/04 04:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think a lot of people here are overestimating the effect that legalization of psychedelics would have on their consumption. Since when does making a drug legal increase interest in it?


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975920 - 08/07/04 04:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

sometimes people are less interested in doing something when there's a vast organization of scary men with guns threatening to imprison them if they are caught doing it.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975922 - 08/07/04 04:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975930 - 08/07/04 04:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

not if you are thinking in terms of decades (or even centuries) instead of years. These things take time.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976034 - 08/07/04 04:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? *DELETED* [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976078 - 08/07/04 05:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2976183 - 08/07/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.



And yet they remained illegal during that time.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976286 - 08/07/04 06:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Here's my opinion on it. The drug war is very capitalist. Why? Because it's protecting the system by keeping people concentrated on materialistic goals.




True Capitalism isn't what I would call a "system". It is more like having no system to inhibit our own individual choices. If you want to start up a commune with a voluntary socialist system within a true Capitalist society and forsake all material posessions it would not harm the society at large one bit.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976297 - 08/07/04 06:16 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
It's capitalistic to prohibit the sale of substances which would most certainly cause a massive shift in values because people would begin to value material things less and less. That's dangerous to a materialistic society.

In the long run it's in the best interest of a materialistic society to prohibit the use of drugs which would kill the thought that fuels it.




I fail to see how a few (or even many) people forsaking material things will harm anything in a Capitalist society.

As a side note I know and am around a lot of drug users and most are more greedy and materialistic than average. Drugs do not lead to people forsaking material things.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: pB0t]
    #2976305 - 08/07/04 06:21 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
The trip is in your head, not the drugs.



I've been trying to explain this to people here for quite some time. They don't seem to get it.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976329 - 08/07/04 06:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.



And yet they remained illegal during that time.




LSD was not scheduled until 67. Up until that point it was basically a research chemical. MDMA was not scheduled until 83, I believe.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2976345 - 08/07/04 06:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ok, so maybe it would have some effect, but to think that it would have a big enough effect to create a mass revolution in consciousness seems a bit naive to me.




look what happened in the 60s ...the re-birth of psychedelics caused a quasi-revolution in a few short years.



And yet they remained illegal during that time.




LSD was not scheduled until 67. Up until that point it was basically a research chemical. MDMA was not scheduled until 83, I believe.



And the "Summer of Love" which sparked the psychedelic revolution did not start until 1967. What a coincidence! And MDMA was not commonly used back then.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976366 - 08/07/04 06:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

well, everyone knows that hippies were a cheap ripoff of beatniks. dont even get me started on the phoniness of the hippie revolution. By that time, people were just going with the crowd. The real revolutionaries were in their 20's during the 40's and 50's, and those are the ones that founded groups like the Weathermen in the late 60's. Anyway, there is absolutely no way I would describe 67 as 'the spark of the psychedelic revolution'. It was more like the grand finale. LSD was invented in 1938. The bulk of scientific research on LSD was done in the 50's. It was during that time that the beatniks like Ken Kesey got ahold of LSD and worked out the basic principles which would be imitated and corrupted by the hippie generation. It was the commodification of LSD and similar drugs which destroyed the counter culture. Before prohibition, those chemicals were worthless. Can you imagine being able to buy a gram of LSD for nearly nothing from switzerland?

Also, arent you aware of how ugly shit got in 68? That year was the closest this country has come to revolution in modern times, IMO.

and no, MDMA wasnt around, but MDA was. MDA was developed by the Nazis, I believe.

Edited by DoctorJ (08/07/04 06:55 PM)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? *DELETED* [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2976415 - 08/07/04 07:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: pB0t]
    #2976425 - 08/07/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

hmmmm...  well you're right about Merk in 1912. 

I thought I remember reading somewhere that the Nazis used it as a "go pill" during WWII...  But I cant seem to find anything that confirms that now... :shrug:

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2976544 - 08/07/04 08:09 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:



But do you realize how many practitioners are abusing the patient/doctor trust by recommending methamphetamines when they arent necessary or beneficial? I'm telling you, its an epidemic. How many kids today are diagnosed with "ADHD" just for being rowdy kids? How many gullible parents are trusting their doctors and putting their kids on these meds, causing their children lifelong problems? I was born in 81, and over half the people I know have been prescribed adderol or ritalin at one point in their lives, whether they needed it or not. Many of these people would never have taken that shit if it werent for the direction (and in the case of anyone under 16- forced administration) of doctors. Shit, my mother has my little brother strung out on that shit right now, the doctors have her soooo convinced that there is something 'wrong' with him. He's 13 and couldnt legally refuse treatment if he wanted to. By the time he's old enough to say no, the damage will have already been done. Do you think that's right?



I do believe we may have found something to agree on. I find the whole "better children through chemistry" thing very fucked up. The fucking "disease" of ADD, PDD, HDD, whateverDD didn't exist when I was a kid. Sure there were kids who were having problems but I would say, strictly from experiential observations that it was less than a quarter the number of kids who are being made guinea pigs of today with their myriad drug regimens, often in the same kid. See Thomas Szasz "The Myth of Mental Illness."

I think the government should safeguard product quality and provide information that any reasonable person can understand. After that, you're on your own.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2976563 - 08/07/04 08:16 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You don't understand what Capitalism is, which is why you feel that the WOD is anti-Capitalist. I don't say this as a criticism -- few people these days understand what Capitalism is.

But mushmaster is right on with this one -- the WOD is about as anti-Capitalist as a government policy can be. This is why such staunch defenders of Capitalism as the Cato Institute, National Review, the Objectivist Society, Neal Boortz, and the Libertarian Party of the United States (as well as many more) all oppose the WOD. It is the very antithesis of Capitalism.

pinky


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2977517 - 08/08/04 04:50 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The psychedelic movement was spreading like wildfire in the sixties. If it hadn't been shut down by the feds, it would have turned the world upside down for the better.

Good point Leary. Psychedelics went hand in hand with left-wing views and rebellion against the capitalist right. Psychedelics were seen as a terrible threat by the capitalists. Nixon called Leary "The most dangerous man in America".

The capitalists need a submissive workforce who can be intimidated and exploited for profit. Psychedelics have a terrible potential to encourage people to reject that.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2977537 - 08/08/04 05:23 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I wonder if there is a psychedelic capitalist group anywhere? Where they get together and say "I tripped and saw a world where we only had to pay 12 year old girls in the sweatshops 10 cents a day and there were no government regulations to protect workers rights. Where we could ban unions and make them work in horrendous conditions and they were dropping like flies but like dude, it was still THIER CHOICE to work there dig? And we could award ourselves 500% payrises year on year and buy new houses and SUV's and go the mall every day. And we could chop down the rainforest cos the profits would be incredible. And anyone who, like, didn't want to work in the sweatshops would starve to death along with their families cos we don't want to pay tax's for welfare dude. What a trip"

Psychedelics don't tend to push capitalist values do they. Tends to be more about sharing and caring for each other and the environment doesn't it. The absolute antithesis of capitalism which places profit above everything.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2977795 - 08/08/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You're a fucking genius Alex. You've got what i'm trying to say exactly.

I don't know how to prove what I believe to everyone else. All I can say is that I believe that if psychedelic drugs were legalized, they would affect society and the people in it very differently than they affect people now.

I believe that widespread accepted use of psychedelics would cause spiritual upheaval. People would begin using the drugs within a spiritual context. Spirituality, freedom and love would begin to become more and more important and materialism would become less and less important. I know you guys are saying that capitalism is not materialism, but you must admit that they go hand in hand.

Oh, and it's ridiculous to think that the entire human race would kill itself on the bad drugs(heroin, coke and meth) and never learn from those who had fallen before them. People would learn.






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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2977819 - 08/08/04 09:50 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

hrm


psychedelics foster unmaterialistic views
materialism has always existed
capitalism can not exist without materialism ( the overly optimistic would disagree )

my opinion is that capitalism will not last too much longer. Why? I don't know. Will psychedelics have a part in it? Maybe. Or maybe just enjoying life, and seeing others enjoying life. Would we really need psychedelics to show us that?

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2977842 - 08/08/04 10:02 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think we do need them.





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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2977849 - 08/08/04 10:06 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

but why?

Aren't the horrors of modern war, the companionship offered by truly good people, and the comfort of living enough to persuade people into living well? Or do we need psychedelics as a power punch to dethrone and bloody the "wicked" ?

I'm just a bit reserved about any Revolution.

If thats not what you mean, nevermind, what DO we need them for then?

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2978097 - 08/08/04 11:36 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
This question depends upon what one sees as the specific definition of 'capitalism'. some define it as an entire ideology that is dependent upon and encourages materialism or the accumulation of private property, others (like most in this thread) merely equate it with the complete lack of regulation upon goods and services.




neither of those definitions would specifically preclude drug use...but it was a while back..when one of the neocon twits here said that "the free market is not anarchic"...so in that sense..the drug war is not anti-capitalist.. but not necessarily pro-capitalist either...

Quote:

Disregarding that semantic question, let me pose this question a different way. Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?




my own pet theory about that is that such problems are the fault of the fiat currency system more than anything else..since the money spent on drugs and adjutant expenses would tend to be depreciational..and as such create inflation...with hard currency..this would not be a problem...

and then there is the real possibility that cheaper drugs will compete against more expensive products..resulting in downward pressure on wages.. however..no analysis has ever been done to prove it...

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978138 - 08/08/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
The psychedelic movement was spreading like wildfire in the sixties. If it hadn't been shut down by the feds, it would have turned the world upside down for the better.

Good point Leary. Psychedelics went hand in hand with left-wing views and rebellion against the capitalist right. Psychedelics were seen as a terrible threat by the capitalists. Nixon called Leary "The most dangerous man in America".

The capitalists need a submissive workforce who can be intimidated and exploited for profit. Psychedelics have a terrible potential to encourage people to reject that.




thats not necessarily true..when the effects of the initial setting and attitude of the user are taken into account...such drugs might have encouraged leftist thinking in the 1960s simply because the users were pissed off at the capitalists for starting the vietnam war when they took the drugs...and while i do think leftward when im on acid..thats also the case when im sober...if LSD were to become legal tomorrow..it could just as easily make amerikkka even more neocon than it is now...

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978163 - 08/08/04 12:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I don't know how to prove what I believe to everyone else. All I can say is that I believe that if psychedelic drugs were legalized, they would affect society and the people in it very differently than they affect people now.



I know many people who simply can't handle psychedelics. I believe this would still be true if they were legalized.

Quote:

I believe that widespread accepted use of psychedelics would cause spiritual upheaval. People would begin using the drugs within a spiritual context. Spirituality, freedom and love would begin to become more and more important and materialism would become less and less important. I know you guys are saying that capitalism is not materialism, but you must admit that they go hand in hand.



If you are going to make such allegations, you might want to first define materialism. If materialism simply means buying things, then you are right. Capitalism and materialism go hand in hand. However, if by materialism you mean the prioritizing of material goods over people then you are dead wrong.

Quote:

Oh, and it's ridiculous to think that the entire human race would kill itself on the bad drugs(heroin, coke and meth) and never learn from those who had fallen before them. People would learn.



It's also ridiculous to think that if psychedelics were legalized that everyone would start doing them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978180 - 08/08/04 12:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I wonder if there is a psychedelic capitalist group anywhere? Where they get together and say "I tripped and saw a world where we only had to pay 12 year old girls in the sweatshops 10 cents a day and there were no government regulations to protect workers rights. Where we could ban unions and make them work in horrendous conditions and they were dropping like flies but like dude, it was still THIER CHOICE to work there dig? And we could award ourselves 500% payrises year on year and buy new houses and SUV's and go the mall every day. And we could chop down the rainforest cos the profits would be incredible. And anyone who, like, didn't want to work in the sweatshops would starve to death along with their families cos we don't want to pay tax's for welfare dude. What a trip"



Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group where they say "I tripped and saw a world where we forcibly take money from people and give it to others while claiming to be compassionate, and we had the government control the economy so that people couldn't be productive without government permission, and we taxed the fuck out of everyone and claimed it was for their own good. Man, what a trip."

Quote:

Psychedelics don't tend to push capitalist values do they. Tends to be more about sharing and caring for each other and the environment doesn't it.



This does not contradict capitalism.

Quote:

The absolute antithesis of capitalism which places profit above everything.



That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978192 - 08/08/04 12:19 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
The psychedelic movement was spreading like wildfire in the sixties. If it hadn't been shut down by the feds, it would have turned the world upside down for the better.

Good point Leary. Psychedelics went hand in hand with left-wing views and rebellion against the capitalist right. Psychedelics were seen as a terrible threat by the capitalists. Nixon called Leary "The most dangerous man in America".



Psychedelics were seen as a threat by war-mongers who supported our actions in Vietnam. The fact that they considered themselves capitalist(though they weren't true capitalists by any stretch of the imagination) was incidental. Also, remember that these same people were opposed to Johnson, who was far from capitalist.

Quote:

The capitalists need a submissive workforce who can be intimidated and exploited for profit. Psychedelics have a terrible potential to encourage people to reject that.



And I suppose that instead they have the potential to encourage massive government intrusion in people's lives, huh?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (08/08/04 12:34 PM)

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2978194 - 08/08/04 12:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'm surprised that you think that I think psychedelics should be used to "bloody the wicked". It would be quite the reverse, i'm sure. Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values. Behavior change is what we're talking about.


Quote:

Anna said:

if LSD were to become legal tomorrow..it could just as easily make amerikkka even more neocon than it is now...




What do you base that on? You really think that if thousands and thousands of people had access to top grade LSD that it would cause them to think like John Ashcroft?






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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978219 - 08/08/04 12:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I'm surprised that you think that I think psychedelics should be used to "bloody the wicked". It would be quite the reverse, i'm sure. Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values. Behavior change is what we're talking about.



Most behavior changes that people experience from psychedelics only last a day or two, unless they consciously try to stay in that state of mind.


Quote:

Quote:

Anna said:

if LSD were to become legal tomorrow..it could just as easily make amerikkka even more neocon than it is now...




What do you base that on? You really think that if thousands and thousands of people had access to top grade LSD that it would cause them to think like John Ashcroft?



It's not about causing anything. People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren't likely to change those ideas while tripping.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2978266 - 08/08/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I know many people who simply can?t handle psychedelics. I believe this would still be true if they were legalized.




That?s fine. They wouldn?t have to.


Quote:

If you are going to make such allegations, you might want to first define materialism. If materialism simply means buying things, then you are right. Capitalism and materialism go hand in hand. However, if by materialism you mean the prioritizing of material goods over people then you are dead wrong.




Yeah, the second one. Most people would no longer value money and objects over human life.


Quote:


It?s also ridiculous to think that if psychedelics were legalized that everyone would start doing them.




Everyone wouldn?t need to start doing them. Enough people would do them to start a very positive spiritual movement which would spread all across the globe. Even people who didn?t do psychedelics would begin seeing the benifit in the things that the trippers believe in.







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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978270 - 08/08/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Even people who didn't do psychedelics would begin seeing the benifit in the things that the trippers believe in.



Again, 'trippers' are not a uniform group. This board is a glaring example of that.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2978285 - 08/08/04 01:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Most behavior changes that people experience from psychedelics only last a day or two, unless they consciously try to stay in that state of mind.




That would change if a strong movement was going on and was accepted by many others. Other people would also be changing their minds and it would be easier to stay in "the thought". Group mentality is powerful.


Quote:

It?s not about causing anything. People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren?t likely to change those ideas while tripping.




I strongly disagree.






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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2978296 - 08/08/04 01:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Even people who didn?t do psychedelics would begin seeing the benifit in the things that the trippers believe in.



Again, ?trippers? are not a uniform group. This board is a glaring example of that.




If a strong spiritual movement brought on by psychedelics took place, people who didn?t trip would begin to see the benifit of thinking and living the way the members of this peace movement do. It would be infectious.






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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2978418 - 08/08/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group

I think socialist values of caring for your fellow man are far closer to psychedelic values. Certainly the capitalist ideal that greed is good, that profit comes before everything including human life, the environment etc is the complete antithisis of psychedelics. The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.

This does not contradict capitalism.

The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.

That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.

No, it's inherent in the capitalist system. If you own an oil company and sit there wringing your hands saying "We must build safer ships so we don't have oil spills", your competitor simply works with the unsafe ships, undercuts you, pays any pathetic fines imposed for spills, makes more profit and puts you out of buisness. Profit is all that matters. The individual doesn't really matter at all.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2978431 - 08/08/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren't likely to change those ideas while tripping.

The important thing is that psychedelics are going to open up a whole new world of possibilities for the young. Instead of the billions spent pushing the capitalist, consumerist ideal, a whole new value system will be available.

Taking psychedelics essentially tells people that "You are not your job. You are not the money in your bank account. You are not the car you drive. You are not how much money is in your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis"  :grin:

That's why capitalism and psychedelics are always going to be at  opposite ends of the scale.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978439 - 08/08/04 02:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

just one problem I might see here

I took psychedelics at a fairly early age.
Living every day consistently dollar-to-dollar and such is simply not a possibility any more.

i'm not sure where the problem is, and don't know where i stand actually.. do you think capitalistic values will fall within the next 100 years?

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2978483 - 08/08/04 02:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Lets face it, psychedelics have their work cut out. The entire culture is based on telling people they are their khakis. Whether psychdelics can reverse that it's hard to say.

All we know for sure is that for the brief few years they were widespread and legal in the culture the capitalists recognised they were such an enormous threat that they needed to be made class A drugs alongside heroin. To me, that indicates they were running scared.

Capitalist values will fall sooner or later - capitalism assumes infinite resources, the planet doesn't have infinite resources. The only question is whether the planet will be so fucked by the time capitalism dies that life on earth dies with it.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2978565 - 08/08/04 02:43 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I personally can't wait for the fall of capitalism! Down with freedom! *giggle*

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2978601 - 08/08/04 02:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

no one said psychedelics will completely exclude capitalists. I believe they are saying that anyone who wants to be capitalist will be, but no one will want to.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2978617 - 08/08/04 03:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
no one said psychedelics will completely exclude capitalists. I believe they are saying that anyone who wants to be capitalist will be, but no one will want to.




Not as much. Values will change. Human life will take precident over money. "Thing fetish" will die.






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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978625 - 08/08/04 03:09 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.




psychedelics only push the values the user had when (s)he took the drugs...if ashwipe dropped acid..he would not suddenly morph into dennis kucinich...my hunch is that it would just make him hear god preaching more neocon drivel to him in dick cheneys' voice...

BTW..has anyone actually witnessed a neocon on acid??...

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978627 - 08/08/04 03:10 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values.



Even if that happened to you why do you believe everyone would have the same results.

I've tripped hundreds of times and am still the same person.

My values are the same. My consciousness is unchanged.

To think that everyone, or even the majority would have the same shift as you appear to think they would is quite frankly a rather silly belief.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2978701 - 08/08/04 03:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values.



Even if that happened to you why do you believe everyone would have the same results.

I?ve tripped hundreds of times and am still the same person.

My values are the same. My consciousness is unchanged.

To think that everyone, or even the majority would have the same shift as you appear to think they would is quite frankly a rather silly belief.




So the people who were "hippies" in the sixties were like that before they took the drug? I don?t think so.

I saw this show on LSD on the History Channel where this anti-drug guy says "I took LSD and literally overnight I became a barefoot tree-hugging hippie." What do you think happened to thousands of people in the sixties? Psychedelics change people?s lives drastically.






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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978753 - 08/08/04 04:10 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

psychedelics certainly changed my life...

ps: a neocon on acid would be pretty funny

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978758 - 08/08/04 04:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychedelics change people's lives drastically.



SOME peoples lives. Some not so drastically. Some not at all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlined33p
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978821 - 08/08/04 04:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group

I think socialist values of caring for your fellow man are far closer to psychedelic values. Certainly the capitalist ideal that greed is good, that profit comes before everything including human life, the environment etc is the complete antithisis of psychedelics. The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.




You do realize you are the one applying the connotations of values to psychedelic drugs. It is a complete fallacy. The LSD trade below chemists is VERY capitolistic. People can make $96,000 dollars off 1 gram of crystal. You are blind and hindered by your ignorance on the subject of capitalism and psychedelics. Hey i would love for the world and drugs to be all about love, peace, and brotherhood; but it is not and you need to accept that.

Quote:

Alex123 said:
This does not contradict capitalism.

The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.




Says you................ which doesn't say much. Just because a bunch of restless, disenfranchised kids attached to a drug world and started a movement means nothing. Fads as well as movements come and go all the time. LSD is just a chemical, its not magic, its not love, its just a hallucinogen. Heck i wish it was more, but it just ain't.


Quote:

Alex123 said:
That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.

No, it's inherent in the capitalist system. If you own an oil company and sit there wringing your hands saying "We must build safer ships so we don't have oil spills", your competitor simply works with the unsafe ships, undercuts you, pays any pathetic fines imposed for spills, makes more profit and puts you out of buisness. Profit is all that matters. The individual doesn't really matter at all.




In this case it would be up to the consumers to make a difference. If they do, great; if not, thats the problem with freedom.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2979149 - 08/08/04 07:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group

I think socialist values of caring for your fellow man are far closer to psychedelic values.



You mean forcing people to care for their fellow man?

Quote:

Certainly the capitalist ideal that greed is good, that profit comes before everything including human life, the environment etc is the complete antithisis of psychedelics.



I am a capitalist, and hold none of those ideals. Which capitalists are you talking about?

Quote:

The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.



Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No.

Quote:

This does not contradict capitalism.

The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.



I think government intrusion in people's lives is more contradictory to the values I've gained both on and off psychedelics. But that's the thing--psychedelics don't have values. People do.

Quote:

That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.

No, it's inherent in the capitalist system. If you own an oil company and sit there wringing your hands saying "We must build safer ships so we don't have oil spills", your competitor simply works with the unsafe ships, undercuts you, pays any pathetic fines imposed for spills, makes more profit and puts you out of buisness. Profit is all that matters. The individual doesn't really matter at all.



See my example above.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2979151 - 08/08/04 07:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren't likely to change those ideas while tripping.

The important thing is that psychedelics are going to open up a whole new world of possibilities for the young. Instead of the billions spent pushing the capitalist, consumerist ideal, a whole new value system will be available.

Taking psychedelics essentially tells people that "You are not your job. You are not the money in your bank account. You are not the car you drive. You are not how much money is in your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis"  :grin:

That's why capitalism and psychedelics are always going to be at  opposite ends of the scale.



You have a very warped view of capitalism.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2979157 - 08/08/04 07:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
BTW..has anyone actually witnessed a neocon on acid??...



Not on acid, but I've shroomed with a neocon friend of mine a number of times. Never has he given any indication that his values changed while on shrooms.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2979231 - 08/08/04 07:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:
" The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No."

Actually, yes. It would cost more to spend money on the ships. Cost efficiency is the capitalist's motto.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2979241 - 08/08/04 08:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Quote:
" The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No."

Actually, yes. It would cost more to spend money on the ships. Cost efficiency is the capitalist's motto.



What's great about capitalism is that you, the consumer, have the power to affect cost. If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships, then their profits go down and they can no longer afford to keep doing business the way they are doing it.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2979259 - 08/08/04 08:10 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Morrowind said:
Quote:
" The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No."

Actually, yes. It would cost more to spend money on the ships. Cost efficiency is the capitalist's motto.



What's great about capitalism is that you, the consumer, have the power to affect cost. If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships, then their profits go down and they can no longer afford to keep doing business the way they are doing it.



Lets also not forget that having unsafe ships actually adds to cost. If a ship ruptures and spills oil the company loses both the oil and possibly the ship. Not to even mention the fines and lawsuits.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2979586 - 08/08/04 10:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Capitalism is not the same as materialism.

That is all.




I was going to say exactly this. I believe Learyfan is perceiving capitalism as materialism and mass consumption. However, according to the dictionary:

Quote:

An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.




So the drug war goes EXACTLY AGAINST the dictionary definition of capitalism, because it outlaws the economic system for drugs, makes the production and distribution illegal for everyone except the government and takes away the free market, driving it underground. If we lived in a purely capitalistic society, no goods would be illegal, but we don't live in a purely capitalistic society. The government controls many things nowadays


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ravus]
    #2979745 - 08/08/04 11:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2980030 - 08/09/04 12:38 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism?

Actually it would, because other oil companies would simply hire people who hadn't taken psychedelics and were happy to undercut the others. The people paying for safety features would be driven out of business by the ones who didn't give a damn. That's capitalism for you.

I think government intrusion in people's lives is more contradictory to the values I've gained both on and off psychedelics

What "government intrusion" are you talking about? Do you think the National Health Service in the UK is "government intrusion"? Providing free health care to poor people? My grandfather mentioned the other day he had a friend at school who became ill and couldn't afford to pay to see a doctor. He died. (your fabled notion that "charity" will save us all didn't work then either) The value of life isn't something psychedelics have impressed on you?

See my example above.

I did. Your example doesn't work.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ravus]
    #2980065 - 08/09/04 12:46 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

So the drug war goes EXACTLY AGAINST the dictionary definition of capitalism

The trouble is they encourage people to utterly reject the values of capitalism. If the capitalists attempt to devastate the environment for profit, they have a fight on their hands. If they need to exploit and abuse cheap labour to increase profits, people care for their fellow man and reject it. You simply can't operate capitalism among people where psychedelic values are widespread. The capitalists understand this. Nixon didn't call Leary "the most dangerous man in america" for nothing.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: z@z.com]
    #2980136 - 08/09/04 01:02 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

If a ship ruptures and spills oil the company loses both the oil and possibly the ship. Not to even mention the fines and lawsuits.

No, using old out of date "rustbuckets" is a lot cheaper than investing in newer and safer transportation ships. An obvious solution would be to transport smaller quantities of oil - but that means a lot less profit. Therefore the environment pays the cost. Capitalism in action.

The fines and lawsuits are certainly no deterrant whatsoever. Evading liability by using flags of convenience, subcontracting and other legal con tricks is simple.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2980171 - 08/09/04 01:13 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

What's great about capitalism is that you, the consumer, have the power to affect cost

Er..right..

If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships

Well leaving aside for a second the fact that they all use them so your argument is utterly pointless anyway..

..but don't you think the environment is a little too important to depend on everyone on earth spending hours researching through the myriad subcontractors and flags of convenience the oil companies could use to hide behind? You don't think the government simply passing a law saying "Spill oil and we will bankrupt you" would make the environment a helluva lot safer?

Or is that a little too socialist for you?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2980486 - 08/09/04 03:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

BTW..has anyone actually witnessed a neocon on acid??...

The mind boggles. I imagine you'd be walking through the forest and they'd say "Dude, imagine if we cut this all down and built a mall in it's place. The profits would be enormous! And more consumers go to malls than the forest so, like, that's capitalist freedom".


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2980567 - 08/09/04 05:24 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism?

Actually it would, because other oil companies would simply hire people who hadn't taken psychedelics and were happy to undercut the others. The people paying for safety features would be driven out of business by the ones who didn't give a damn. That's capitalism for you.



Actually, I think z@z made an even better point here. It is far more profitable not to spill oil.

Quote:

I think government intrusion in people's lives is more contradictory to the values I've gained both on and off psychedelics

What "government intrusion" are you talking about? Do you think the National Health Service in the UK is "government intrusion"? Providing free health care to poor people?



If by "free" you mean paid for by stolen money, then yes.

Quote:

My grandfather mentioned the other day he had a friend at school who became ill and couldn't afford to pay to see a doctor. He died. (your fabled notion that "charity" will save us all didn't work then either) The value of life isn't something psychedelics have impressed on you?



If anything psychedelics have taught me that life is an illusion, but I digress. The value of life does not justify theft.

Quote:

See my example above.

I did. Your example doesn't work.



Maybe not as well as z@z's point, but it still worked.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2980569 - 08/09/04 05:25 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

What's thing about the "values" of capitalism? Capitalism is a system of economics. It doesn't have values. People do.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2980576 - 08/09/04 05:30 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships

Well leaving aside for a second the fact that they all use them so your argument is utterly pointless anyway..



See my example about oil CEO's taking psychedelics. If one of them decided to use safer ships, you could reward them by buying their oil and boycotting others.

Quote:

..but don't you think the environment is a little too important to depend on everyone on earth spending hours researching through the myriad subcontractors and flags of convenience the oil companies could use to hide behind? You don't think the government simply passing a law saying "Spill oil and we will bankrupt you" would make the environment a helluva lot safer?



I have no problem with massive fines for oil spills.

Quote:

Or is that a little too socialist for you?



Actually, it goes fits quite well with geolibertarian values. Since the oceans are common property, it is therefore initiation of force to pollute them, and thus fines must be imposed for doing so.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2980663 - 08/09/04 06:30 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

And people also fuck the environment, our common "property", up - that's where taxes come in.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2980700 - 08/09/04 07:08 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I have said before that I advocate a land value tax(tax on the value of land), since land is common property. I have also said before that I am all for imposing fines on major pollutors, as the air and water is also common property. This is consistent with geolibertarian ideals. What is not just is taxation on productivity and voluntary transactions.


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2981024 - 08/09/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Once again, saying something a lot doesn't make it true. It is not 'stealing' so long as they are tacitly agreeing to the laws of the land by remaining in that land. They are tacitly agreeing to all laws, including tax laws.

And before you make the comparison, this is not the same as a dictatorship where people are not free to leave.


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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2981069 - 08/09/04 10:26 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I assume that he means because the government is passing up billions in tax money and then wasting tax money on fighting the drug war.

it's more about the nature of the legislation, not the means used to enforce it. people are prohibited from producing or exchanging a material good. we're talking about a situation where the rights of individuals to produce or engage in free exchange are limited for the benefit of some nebulous "common good". it's not capitalistic in the least. it's a collectivist agenda. it is anti-capitalist.

Why? Because it's protecting the system by keeping people concentrated on materialistic goals. If drugs such as marijuana and psychedelics were legal, it would cause the system to collapse.

capitalism is not incompatible with the values that you are suggesting are reinforced through the use of psychedelic drugs. the existence of freedom in the marketplace would not disappear on account of psychedelic drugs. if you disagree, why?

the idea that psychedelics will bring about the fall of society, or capitalism, or whatever, is not the reason that they are illegal. it is just another one of many erroneous excuses.

Edited by mushmaster (08/09/04 12:04 PM)

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2981262 - 08/09/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Once again, saying something a lot doesn't make it true. It is not 'stealing' so long as they are tacitly agreeing to the laws of the land by remaining in that land.



Say a group of thugs come to a shop owner and say to him, "give us $500 a week or we'll put you out of business and we will no longer 'protect' you from any of the neighborhood criminals" and the guy fearing for his safety and livelihood gives them $500 a week. This then is not extortion because the shop owner agrees to the arrangement by remaining in the city, doing business and giving them $500 a week?

Other than legality, what is the moral and practical difference?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2981345 - 08/09/04 11:33 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This is all so nostalgic for me. I remember coming to this forum and making the exact same arguments TaoTeChing is now making, and watching you and pinksharkmark rip them apart in the exact same manner. *sigh* memories...


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2981522 - 08/09/04 12:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)


The drug war is very capitalist. Why? Because it's protecting the
system by keeping people concentrated on materialistic goals. If
drugs such as marijuana and psychedelics were legal, it would cause
the system to collapse.


You are making the assertion that drugs lead to an expanding of
consciousness; which always leads a person to be anti-materialistic.
I don't buy that. I remember all of the kids in my high school
who I used to use drugs with. We would get stoned and trip and
we had a lot of fun. But when it all wore off, we all wanted
stuff. We wanted nice cars and nice houses. Getting fucked up
occassionally doesn't automatically turn you into some
anti-materialistic nature loving hippy.

People buy stuff because stuff makes our lives funner, more
interesting, and easier. Getting fucked up isn't going to
change that.

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2981560 - 08/09/04 12:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

12 year old girls in the sweatshops

not capitalism.

Where we could ban unions

not capitalism.

make them work in horrendous conditions

not capitalism.

you're really on a roll.

Psychedelics don't tend to push capitalist values do they.

i guess not.  :smirk:

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2981626 - 08/09/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

materialism and greed are not requisites for capitalism to exist, nor must one be greedy or materialistic to support capitalism. compassion is not contradictory to capitalism, nor must a compassionate person be opposed to capitalism.

capitalism is merely the absence of coercion in the marketplace. that is all it is. it permits both compassion and greed (so long as it isn't harming anyone), but it doesn't require either.

capitalism is not a system. it requires the absence of a system.

i consider myself to be a compassionate person. i also consider myself fairly non-materialistic. i'm not going to argue that the many psychedelic experiences i've had have not reinforced these traits. i believe they have.

however, i am firm supporter of capitalism. i believe in liberty in the marketplace. collectivist or paternalistic controls on the market are ethically unjustifiable, unwise from a practical economic perspective, and pave dangerous inroads for government regulation of the lives of private citizens. i am not a capitalist because i am greedy, or because i have a raging addiction to consumer products, or because my livelihood depends on "exploiting" those who do. i am a capitalist because capitalism is a good idea.

Edited by mushmaster (08/09/04 01:01 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2981656 - 08/09/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

and we're straying from the original question of the thread without answering it first.

the drug war is not capitalist. even if we assume that it is true that widespread use of psychedelic drugs would result in some kind of revolution and the end of capitalism, and the effort to prohibit their use is actually a defense of capitalism against this threat (a claim i would dispute), this does not make the drug war itself a capitalist venture.

suppose someone wanted to ban socialist literature. this wouldn't be very capitalist at all. people have a right to use their labor, intellect, and creative talents to write books if they wish. they also have a right to exchange these books to other individuals. simply because the ban is an effort to 'defend capitalism' against a percieved threat doesn't make the act of banning production and exchange a "capitalist" act in the least.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2981693 - 08/09/04 01:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

It seems to me that 'capitalism' is very much like anarchy, in that it is an unstable state. I would like for anyone to give me an example of a capitalist state that has not eventually collapsed into communism with time.

Capitalism itself may be against monopoly, but the goal of every individual capitalist is monopoly, or 'market dominance'. Much like anarchy, I believe that capitalism almost always collapses into communism or feudalism with time. There is simply nothing to prevent it, and savage fuedalism seems to be right in line with our animal nature.

So, even though i agree that the drug war is very 'anti-capitalist' (in theory), I can see where people are coming from when they say that prohibition is capitalist. Because basically you have a bunch of people trying to make an intrinsically worthless product valuable. I sincerely doubt that if drugs were legalized they would be any kind of commodity. Drug laws are set up by capitalists in order to make their product valuable. Without prohibition, narcotics would be very difficult to 'capitalize on'. So while prohibition might not be capitalist in the archetypical sense of the word, individual capitalists can certainly benefit from prohibition. And many have. Why would the corner drug dealer want prohibition to end? Thats his business! Not to mention private prisons, rehab clinics, courts, govt agencies, etc... Prohibition is big business!!! What motivation do these people have to end prohibition? Certainly not self-interest.

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2981732 - 08/09/04 01:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)


Actually it would, because other oil companies would simply hire people who hadn't taken psychedelics and were happy to undercut the others. The people paying for safety features would be driven out of business by the ones who didn't give a damn. That's capitalism for you.


with which of these statements do you find fault:

1. when you consider the net costs over all individuals affected ("society" if you will), using unsafe ships is costlier than using safe ones.

2. capitalism requires that victims of accidents (especially those caused by negligence such as we're talking about here) be fully compensated for costs incurred.

3. therefore capitalism actually requires that the full cost of using unsafe ships be shouldered entirely by the oil company using them. if there are uncompensated victims, it is non-capitalistic.

4. because of 1, 2, and 3, in a capitalist situation, it is therefore more costly for oil companies to use unsafe ships than safer ones.

5. therefore your statement about capitalism causing oil companies to use unsafe ships because it is cheaper is false.

Edited by mushmaster (08/09/04 01:27 PM)

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OfflineTao
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2981888 - 08/09/04 01:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Once again, saying something a lot doesn't make it true. It is not 'stealing' so long as they are tacitly agreeing to the laws of the land by remaining in that land.



Say a group of thugs come to a shop owner and say to him, "give us $500 a week or we'll put you out of business and we will no longer 'protect' you from any of the neighborhood criminals" and the guy fearing for his safety and livelihood gives them $500 a week. This then is not extortion because the shop owner agrees to the arrangement by remaining in the city, doing business and giving them $500 a week?

Other than legality, what is the moral and practical difference?




The practical difference is that in a government a) the shopkeeper has a say in the matter--as do all of the rest of the shopkeepers who can join together as a political group and b) the laws are subject to all citizens. Everyone's first 5,000 dollars they make a year are taxed the same amount, everyone's second 5,000 dollars they make a year are taxed the same amount, and so on.

The moral difference? Well since I have seen precisely no evidence of an objective morality (including so-called 'natural rights'), it makes no diffence. The citizens have different value systems that might or might not object to the above scenario.

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OfflineTao
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2981911 - 08/09/04 01:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said (paraphrased):
This is all so nostalgic for me.  I remember coming to this forum and parroting socialist arguments, and watching you and pinksharkmark argue against them. now I just parrot libertarian arguments and don't have to do things like come up with my own ideas or deal with much confrontation.  If you don't have the mental capacity to beat 'em, join 'em.  That's what I always say. Now that I'm part of the significant majority on this board, I can feel superior to those with different views. :smile: *sigh*  memories...




:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2982188 - 08/09/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

The practical difference is that in a government a) the shopkeeper has a say in the matter



Bullshit. That is an illusion you have fooled yourself into believing. If the man has consistently voted against all new taxes, if his candidates don't win he has absolutely no say in the matter. If the man was convicted of a victimless crime which is a felony, he may not vote - he does not have a say in the matter. Even if his candidate has won, the man he supported may be behind legislation that he is against - the victim's opinion doesn't matter. Even if he has voted directly, as in the case in California, the will of the people is consistently challenged and overturned by the state. I guess if you are accosted by a group of people (outnumbering you) who demand your earnings, and you tell them, "I would prefer that you not take that money" that you have had a say in the matter and everything would be okay? This is after all the same principle, just without the facade of state legitimacy.

Quote:

the laws are subject to all citizens.



Bullshit again. Governments consistently exclude themselves from legislation. Where taxes are concerned, the legislatures consistently vote their members and their minions raises AT THE TAXPAYERS' EXPENSE, without having to increase profit or productivity.

Quote:

Everyone's first 5,000 dollars they make a year are taxed the same amount, everyone's second 5,000 dollars they make a year are taxed the same amount, and so on.



So, equality means being equal slaves to one master? Regardless, this is irrelevant to whether or not one is subject to force or threat of force in order to extract his wealth or earnings.

Quote:

Well since I have seen precisely no evidence of an objective morality



Since this is your non-answer, I can assume the following conclusions can be drawn from your statements: there is no right or wrong, anything can be excused if you take the proper relative position, all humans are chattel to the state, no human life liberty or property is safe from the whims of the day, what is wrong today may be right tomorrow, wrongs of individuals cease to be wrongs when carried out by the state...

Tell me would you approve of the taking of all property from black people if the it was voted on and carried out by the state? Would it be okay, because morals are relative and there is no objective standards by which to judge these actions? Would it be just peachy, if the government issued a decree that said, "All persons of African descent are free to leave, you have 72 hours to freely pack your bags before we take everything in the name of democracy and rule of law"? According to your line of reasoning, I can see that this would be okay... Am I wrong?

In conclusion, you still have not demonstrated that the act of aquiring wealth from an individual by force or threat of force is not theft, only that when done by the government you approve of it and choose to label it differently.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2982369 - 08/09/04 03:40 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ok guys, i?ll change my opinion.

It?s not capitalism?s fault that things are fucked up. It?s the system?s fault that things are fucked up and the system just happens to be capitalist.

Therefore, the drug war is anti-capitalist but the machine or system that runs this capitalist society thrives on the citizens of this country staying ignorant and mindless. Do I have it right now?





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OfflineTao
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2982408 - 08/09/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

The practical difference is that in a government a) the shopkeeper has a say in the matter



Bullshit. That is an illusion you have fooled yourself into believing.






I would say the same about your presumption that 'tax is theft'
Quote:

If the man has consistently voted against all new taxes, if his candidates don't win he has absolutely no say in the matter. If the man was convicted of a victimless crime which is a felony, he may not vote - he does not have a say in the matter.



This is unfortunately inevitable in any system of collective action/decision-making. There will always be those that disagree with the decision the society makes.
Quote:


Even if his candidate has won, the man he supported may be behind legislation that he is against - the victim's opinion doesn't matter.



and this is a problem with a representative democracy, but I think the alternative--a pure democracy in the style of the ancient Greeks--would be worse.
Quote:


I guess if you are accosted by a group of people (outnumbering you) who demand your earnings, and you tell them, "I would prefer that you not take that money" that you have had a say in the matter and everything would be okay? This is after all the same principle, just without the facade of state legitimacy.



if the people tell you in advance that "if you want to live and work here, next year around april you'll have to give a portion of your earnings back into the society", then you are given the clear choice, you can live and work on the society's land or you may freely leave. if those are the rules that society has chosen to enact, then so be it.
Quote:


Quote:

the laws are subject to all citizens.



Bullshit again. Governments consistently exclude themselves from legislation. Where taxes are concerned, the legislatures consistently vote their members and their minions raises AT THE TAXPAYERS' EXPENSE, without having to increase profit or productivity.



at which point the taxpayers are perfectly free to vote out those who gave themselves raises and other exclusions--if they think its that big a deal.



Quote:


Quote:

Well since I have seen precisely no evidence of an objective morality



Since this is your non-answer, I can assume the following conclusions can be drawn from your statements: there is no right or wrong, anything can be excused if you take the proper relative position, all humans are chattel to the state, no human life liberty or property is safe from the whims of the day, what is wrong today may be right tomorrow, wrongs of individuals cease to be wrongs when carried out by the state...

Tell me would you approve of the taking of all property from black people if the it was voted on and carried out by the state? Would it be okay, because morals are relative and there is no objective standards by which to judge these actions? Would it be just peachy, if the government issued a decree that said, "All persons of African descent are free to leave, you have 72 hours to freely pack your bags before we take everything in the name of democracy and rule of law"? According to your line of reasoning, I can see that this would be okay... Am I wrong?

In conclusion, you still have not demonstrated that the act of aquiring wealth from an individual by force or threat of force is not theft, only that when done by the government you approve of it and choose to label it differently.




Okay, clearly there has been some confusion of my position on morality. I was not saying that I believe there is nothing morally right and wrong, only that I cannot prove the verity of my values of what is right and wrong. and nor for that matter, can anyone else. All we can do is put forth our personal value system of what we believe is right and wrong and try to come to some sort of compromise. I would activley disapprove of such a law as you suggested, but if it were passed and there was nothing more I could do, then I would have to leave with the blacks or else stay and fight. Sure I would say that the law was wrong, but I could not prove that my morality was inherently correct which is the key difference.




Now, before this gets into a huge argument with examples, counterexamples, spin, counterspin, and rationalizations from each side, I think it would be more productive to pinpoint exactly where it is we disagree. I think they are:

#1) Whether the state is representative of the society (I believe it is and as Churchill said "the least worst form of government" and you have clearly stated time and again that you think it is absolutely not --at the risk of putting words in your mouth)

#2) I believe that while I have a moral value system, it is still subjective and do not believe that I can logically argue why it is objectively true. Again, at the risk of putting words in your mouth, you believe that natural rights are objectively true.

What do you think?

Oh, and out of curiousity, what is your viewpoint on how the state should gather money for defense and police?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2982822 - 08/09/04 05:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
I don't like silversoul7 because he changed sides on me, so I use ad hominem attacks about him "parroting arguments" because I can't attack the arguments themselves.  Then I cover it up with a facade of arrogant bravado so I can feel superior without having to question my beliefs or give any consideration to the other side.



:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


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OfflineTao
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2983325 - 08/09/04 07:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
I don't like silversoul7 because he changed sides on me,






the fact that you were an extreme liberal and then an extreme conservative just troubled me as to how easily you are led and buy into an extreme philosophy that allows you to feel smarter/superior others (which reminds me of a certain moderator).  you would  make a good cult member :smirk:
Quote:

so I use ad hominem attacks about him "parroting arguments" because I can't attack the arguments themselves.



I don't see where you brought up a point to argue with, it was you who made a pointless, smug and extremely condescending post.
Quote:

  Then I cover it up with a facade of arrogant bravado so I can feel superior without having to question my beliefs or give any consideration to the other side.



um.....actually I believe I am currently having a discussion w/ evolving.  and actually i have changed my thoughts and beliefs significantly since joining this board as well as strengthening some of my beliefs and arguments.  What I didn't do is simply reverse my whole political philosophy to the majority opinion because it was too difficult to come up with my own thoughts and arguments.  you used to take time with posts and careful thought working it out, now most of what you do is one and two line quips about 'taxes stealing money' which, yes, I refer to as 'parroting'.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2983828 - 08/09/04 10:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
um.....actually I believe I am currently having a discussion w/ evolving.  and actually i have changed my thoughts and beliefs significantly since joining this board as well as strengthening some of my beliefs and arguments.  What I didn't do is simply reverse my whole political philosophy to the  majority opinion because it was too difficult to come up with my own thoughts and arguments.  you used to take time with posts and careful thought working it out, now most of what you do is one and two line quips about 'taxes stealing money' which, yes, I refer to as 'parroting'.




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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OfflineTao
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: d33p]
    #2984084 - 08/09/04 11:44 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

:wtf: If you're going to smugly laugh, please at least be correct.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...;o=&fpart=1

^^^^^^and that doesn't even factor in the fact that the libertarians like evolving, mushmaster, pinky, lds, ancalagon, ss7 and now i guess jesuschrist post more frequently too.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2984188 - 08/10/04 12:02 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Believe it or not, my transition was a very slow and gradual one(if you actually paid attention, you might have noticed). I'm also concerned that you would consider me an "extreme right-winger" when I have come out against the Iraq War, for the environment, against Bush(I hope you'll excuse me if I'm not exactly in love with Kerry either), against the actions of Israel, against the way the war on terror is being fought, etc. When I talk to my friends about politics, they see me as left-wing. So I hardly think I qualify as an "extreme right-winger" simply because I am against the initiation of force against peaceful citizens by their own government. And the fact that you think I consider myself superior to others shows you know absolutely nothing about me. Anyway, enough with the ad-hominem attacks. Let's get back on topic, shall we?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2984579 - 08/10/04 01:53 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

when you consider the net costs over all individuals affected ("society" if you will), using unsafe ships is costlier than using safe ones.

Come again? This premise is false. If the oil spill is on sparsly inhabited coastline then how many "individuals" are affected? If the oil companies had to use safe transportation they would argue this "increases costs" and to "maintain profit" they would have to increase the cost of oil. I presume you accept increasing the price of oil would cost more to "society"?

capitalism requires that victims of accidents (especially those caused by negligence such as we're talking about here) be fully compensated for costs incurred

This premise is false. Capitalism has a history of "fully compensating" victims of accidents? Are you serious? Nothing to do with reality. Read up a few cases of oil spills and how easy it was for people to be "fully compensated".

therefore capitalism actually requires that the full cost of using unsafe ships be shouldered entirely by the oil company using them. if there are uncompensated victims, it is non-capitalistic.

As you are basing this premise on two false premises, it is once again false.

because of 1, 2, and 3, in a capitalist situation, it is therefore more costly for oil companies to use unsafe ships than safer ones.

But remember that 1,2 and 3 were false.

And of course it depends how good your lawyers are. A multi-billion dollar oil company generally has better lawyers and more money to fight legal cases than most.

therefore your statement about capitalism causing oil companies to use unsafe ships because it is cheaper is false.

This must be the best example of a non sequitur I've seen on the board in a long time.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2984601 - 08/10/04 02:00 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Therefore, the drug war is anti-capitalist but the machine or system that runs this capitalist society thrives on the citizens of this country staying ignorant and mindless. Do I have it right now?

I think you were right all along to be honest Leary  :laugh:

Huxley's "Island" is a good read on this subject:

Island is a book filled with reflections and thoughts of Huxley's lifetime. Huxley's experimenting with drugs, especially mescalin, had convinced him of the transcendent meaning of the universe. Death and suffering, he had seen during his lifetime, loses their sting in Island "by believing that life is to be lived out in awareness of itself and of the light beyond it." (Woodcock 282) The Palanese had built a society on humanism and rationality. Population is under control, overconsumption and mass production is not the key of industry; science is used to better mankind rather than destroy it.  Nobody is richer than anyone else.  The people are compassionate concerned for the betterment of mankind; however it is the evilness of militarism and capitalism that wins out.

In Pala there is no military,  wealth is distributed evenly and there is no Big Business to swallow the Little Business, no problem of over-population, the government is decentralized into local self-governing alliances, and no power rests in the hands of one person (169). The ?Palanese?, as the citizens of Pala are referred to in the novel, do not over-consume, do not have organized religion, and live in rural and live in village communities where mutual aid and living in harmony with nature is the social and political philosophies (170). In the fable of Island, Huxley is for the last time criticizing the society in which he lives by creating a utopian social order antithetical to his contemporary Western Society of technological progress, Industrialism, and Judeo-Christian religion.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2984681 - 08/10/04 02:28 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

the fact that you were an extreme liberal

I never got the feeling silver was a liberal even in his "liberal" days. My impression was he just floating in the wind, maybe he'd heard a rage against the machine song and thought the left was "cool" for a while. Never thought it was born from any deep thought, personal experience of poverty or genuine empathy for his fellow man.

I don't see where you brought up a point to argue with, it was you who made a pointless, smug and extremely condescending post.

That's just silvers way.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2984701 - 08/10/04 02:35 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

:lol:

I love it when you pretend to know what you're talking about.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2984796 - 08/10/04 03:39 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

It's what he does best.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2985018 - 08/10/04 07:33 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not "pretending to know" silver. Just stating the impression you gave me in your so-called "left-wing" days. If you did form your left-wing beliefs from personal experiences then ok. Let's get back on topic.


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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2985297 - 08/10/04 09:30 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Come again? This premise is false. If the oil spill is on sparsly inhabited coastline then how many "individuals" are affected?

and what if it isn't? even if it is, the harm to the ecosystem still hurts many human beings indirectly.

the total harm caused to all human beings by the oil spill is very great. that is why we care about oil spills.

oil spills hurt people. in a capitalist system, people must be compensated for damages caused by others. depending on how much negligence factored in as a cause, there can even be charges pressed against the individuals in the company who made the decision allowing the spill to occur (not the legal "person" that is the corporation). what's more, the use of shitty old ships prone to oil spills is terrible for public relations and marketting purposes, so there are costs there as well for the company.

This premise is false. Capitalism has a history of "fully compensating" victims of accidents? Are you serious? Nothing to do with reality. Read up a few cases of oil spills and how easy it was for people to be "fully compensated".

if victims weren't fully compensated, it wasn't capitalism. under capitalism, victims must be compensated.

in capitalism, you cannot just ship petroleum around the world in rusty old ships that are prone to break open and spill their cargo. the practice of doing so would be made more expensive, through the costs of fines and victim's compensation, than replacing the ships with safer ones. that is the bottom line here.

if you want to attack capitalism, attack a situation that is actually allowed to occur under a true capitalist system. no more "12 year old girls", no more banning unions, no more forced labor. let's talk about capitalism. can you do that?

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2985442 - 08/10/04 10:12 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I must say (and this will come as no suprise to those of you that think I'm insane :headbang:) that I agree with Learyfan.

It seems to me the drug wars quite cleverly take the focus off drugs which potentially offer the most benefit to mankind (and equally would melt the social machinery of 'the system') and these wars put the focus onto drugs which are pro-agenda.

When the CIA realised MKULTRA was turning and biting them they had to think fast. As well as taking out the leaders of the Love movement, they made sure the channels to (in particular) cocaine, (but also) heroin were opened wide. And this has become the status quo.

The drug wars tactically enforce this status quo and keep the focus squarely off the psychedellics and the Love movement.

Governments are traditionally the biggest purveyors of drugs, and in fact have fought many drug wars in opposition to the current drug war stance. For example the widely known Opium Wars conducted by the British against mainland China. The British government knew that opium took the enemy's spirit from them and this fact has been capitalised on by the CIA in recent times. This fact was brought to light by the Air America scandal of the 60's, and the attempted narcotisation of the Black urban population in those times in response to the Black Panther movement.

Then it was again seen in the efforts of the 70's to change Afganistan's major product from marijouana to opium poppy. And as is the capitalist way (by capitalist I do not mean free trade, I mean the man intent on accumilating capital for the sake of capital and the power it brings)they are now extending their control further, they are gaining capital. For the secret services a handy by-product of the invasion of Afganistan was the aquisition of this source of one of the world's ultimate capitalist products. And as we are seeing, with this capitalist motivation, contrary to the drug war rhetoric, opium production is booming in US territory (Afganistan).

Right from the times of the first exploratory journeys abroad by Westerners, governments took the lead in drug aquisition, distribution and profiteering. It was only at the inflamation of mass consciousness, when application techniques such as hyperdermic syringes were introduced, that the governments began paying lipservice to a kind of moral war on drugs.

This then gave government a good reason to claim the people need them (to fight this war - and all the others they create....) and has become a staple of the election campaign.

The potential that psychedellics offer is evidenced by the period of free-trade in psychedellics. From their arrival in mainstream Western society in the 1950's up until the government induced mass hysteria and the subsquent banning of anything vaguely mind expanding during the second half of the 60's. In between those times we can see what can happen if psychedellics are legal, and particularly if they become fashionable. (As Learyfan says the fact that 'everyone is doing it' pulls the mass of sheeplike consciousness behind the yoke of those with hubris)

The governments did a pretty good job of re-materialising everyone, they stopped believing in the spirit (and the spirit world) and again went back to sleep: dreaming of the latest automobile, entranced by their tv's (and snorting cocaine). Slaves to the system - a few notches or so back down the freedom register. They were once more 'rational' people.

However under the surface the movement never died, it became concentrated, strong, and it grew up. Now it is slowly reinfecting society with insight and vision.

People involved in this Love movement realised they couldn't just blatantly get up and be free, they would be knocked down, they realised they must hide their freedom, but they must treasure this illicit freedom. This freedom of ideas, of vision, of culture, of Love.

Meanwhile the government keeps pointing at the cocaine fields of Colombia and saying - 'Hey look over here!' drawing attention always in this direction, scared shitless of the alternate direction. Best not mention that other direction, best preent Love and sharing in as laughable a way as possible, best make it seem that it's not in human nature. Oh, and best make a phat load of money on the side out of hard drugs. The secret services (and even front end government) is getting big payouts from the cartels to look the other way - and often to be more directly involved.

Hard drugs certainly can't be legalised, for what then of psychedellics? Their legalisation will doubtlessly follow. And what then? The end of the system as we moderns know it. The end of capitalist/communist dichotomy and so forth. A movement forward into a whole new way of being that draws from all the strands of the past and empowers the multitude. This does not bode well for the megolamaniacs, the politicians, the empire builders, the capitalists, the communists, the dictators, etc, etc - in short it doesn't bode well for the status quo.

Best stick at the war :crazy2:

Edited by CJay (08/10/04 10:28 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: CJay]
    #2985558 - 08/10/04 10:45 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

again we have someone confusing capitalism with state corporatism. capitalism is free exchange. it is the absence of force in the market. it is not the marriage of the state with big businesses.

the original question of this thread was "is the drug war anti-capitalist". the answer is yes. some people here seem to have misread the question. the question is not "are psychedelic drugs anti-capitalist?" or "is the psychedelic experience anti-capitalist?". that would be a good discussion for another thread, though there's really no point in trying to save this one.

is a policy which forbids citizens from engaging in productive labor and free exchange anti-capitalist? absolutely.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2986231 - 08/10/04 01:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I think I was right when I corrected myself guys. Alex and Cjay make great points. Psychedelic drugs could and would destroy "the system", but that?s not the same as saying the drug war is pro-capitalism. The current system just happens to be capitalist.

Mushmaster, am I right now? I think i?ve got it now.







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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2986511 - 08/10/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Mushmaster, am I right now?

except this part:

The current system just happens to be capitalist.

the system we live under now is far from capitalist.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2986666 - 08/10/04 03:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, well it?s supposed to be capitalist then.






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OfflineLothar121
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2987110 - 08/10/04 04:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The current system we have now is considered to be a duel market system. This system inches slightly closer to a free market, but is still heavily regulated by the government. Since the government is so heavily involved, the U.S. economy is no longer a capitalistic society.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2987623 - 08/10/04 06:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
:wtf: If you're going to smugly laugh, please at least be correct.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...;o=&fpart=1

^^^^^^and that doesn't even factor in the fact that the libertarians like evolving, mushmaster, pinky, lds, ancalagon, ss7 and now i guess jesuschrist post more frequently too.




This is a matter of left or right not party affiliation.

political compass says otherwise


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2989877 - 08/11/04 05:43 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

By the definition you offer it seems then that the entire 'system' is anti-capitalist - and therefore many of us who desire change actually crave a true capitalism, meaning real free trade and a government uncorrupted by corporatism.

The governments that hold themselves up to be capitalist (doublespeak?) are therefore not truly capitalist, and neither is the drug war policy. The drug war supports their non-capitalist (anti-capitalist) stance and must therefore be anti-capitalist in the true sense.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2989929 - 08/11/04 05:58 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

the total harm caused to all human beings by the oil spill is very great. that is why we care about oil spills.

Is this the royal "we" mush? The oil companies clearly don't give a shit.

Are you saying that you would introduce rules to prevent the oil companies using enormous unsafe ships to protect a colony of puffins? You don't think they would say "This will force the cost of oil through the roof". What if a competitor said "We'll keep using the big ships and undercut the companies using the safe ships". Would you insist the government step in?

oil spills hurt people.

As much as the cost of oil skyrocketing?

what's more, the use of shitty old ships prone to oil spills is terrible for public relations and marketting purposes, so there are costs there as well for the company.

Nah mush. The odd colony of puffins drenched in oil off some remote costline isn't going to worry the oil companies. Certainly not enough to utterly destroy their ability to "compete" with other oil companies by investing in safe oil transportation. Nature has to suffer. That's capitalism.

if victims weren't fully compensated, it wasn't capitalism.

So is this some kind of fantasy capitalism that's never existed? You seem real keen on saying "Communism failed" even when we assure you totalitarian dictatorships arn't communism.

So in capitalism, everyone would be compensated fairly. Why? What if your competitor can make bigger profits by not compensating people fairly? He drives you out of business. After a few years, no-one is compensated fairly. That's capitalism.

in capitalism, you cannot just ship petroleum around the world in rusty old ships that are prone to break open and spill their cargo

So who stops you? You seem to think that with LESS government control than we have now the corporations will behave more responsibly? Did the corporations behave responsibly in the 19th century when they had a free hand to behave as they wished? The days of child labour, crushing unions, horrendous working conditions etc?

if you want to attack capitalism, attack a situation that is actually allowed to occur under a true capitalist system

Can you give us an example of a country with a true capitalist system? Or is this just a capitalism that exists in your mind?

let's talk about capitalism. can you do that?

Depends what you are referring to by "capitalism". You seem to mean something that has never existed on earth and has no similarity to any capitalist enterprise that has existed in human history. Can I talk about your capitalist fantasy? I'm not sure, you'd have to explain more about it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: CJay]
    #2990109 - 08/11/04 07:22 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Was the Soviet Union truly communist? Just because a government claims to be something does not make it so.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: CJay]
    #2990202 - 08/11/04 07:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

consider the spanish inquisition. it wasn't christian in the same way that the drug war is not capitalist.

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2990309 - 08/11/04 08:36 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Are you saying that you would introduce rules to prevent the oil companies using enormous unsafe ships to protect a colony of puffins?

no, the rules exist to protect people.

As much as the cost of oil skyrocketing?

there is a balance.

there is a cost (one that affects everyone, not just the oil company) to either upgrading to safer ships or choosing not to.

there will be a cost associated with choosing between one of two alternatives:

1. upgrading to safer means of petroleum transporation means a hike in prices for the consumer and reduced profits for the oil company.

2. not upgrading means that people risk the havoc caused by an oil spill.

either way, there is a cost. remember that the decision needn't be all of one of the other. it will be a balance between both. scarcely any amount of investment in safe transporation, no matter how expensive, will totally eliminate the risk (i don't suppose that you would like to see poor families freezing in the winter to make every puffin colony in the world 100% safe from an oil spill). choosing to use the cheapest, most dangerous method of transporation, in order to keep the apparent price of petroleum down, isn't that wise either.

there is a balance which will minimize the cost inflicted (upon everyone) by choosing between #1 and #2.

in the current situation, the oil companies must shoulder their entire share of the burden of action #1 alone, yet they are allowed to (unjustly) shift part of their share of the costs of #2 on other people. because the oil company is not required to pay their full costs of action #2, the balance is shifted in favor of action #2. hold the companies accountable for the accidents they may cause, and you will find the balance which minimizes the total costs inflicted by the choice between #1 and #2.

that is capitalism.

So is this some kind of fantasy capitalism that's never existed?

yes, the sort of capitalism i'm talking about has never fully existed. is that going to be your method of attack now?

You seem real keen on saying "Communism failed" even when we assure you totalitarian dictatorships arn't communism.

involuntary collectivism, of any sort, is totalitarian in theory. communism, even the "good" kind that exists only in theory, will still fail, because it throws economic sense into the wind, eliminating the incentive to produce and creating enormous amounts of waste by forcefully circumventing the price system.

So in capitalism, everyone would be compensated fairly. Why? What if your competitor can make bigger profits by not compensating people fairly? He drives you out of business. After a few years, no-one is compensated fairly. That's capitalism.

let's think about this one. because your competitor is also required to compensate people for losses, how does he use the fact that he doesn't as an advantage to drive you out of the market and then not compensate victims for losses?

Can you give us an example of a country with a true capitalist system?

nope. that doesn't mean we can't move toward it.

Depends what you are referring to by "capitalism".

the absence of force in the marketplace. free production and exchange of goods and services.

Edited by mushmaster (08/11/04 08:42 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2991377 - 08/11/04 01:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

no, the rules exist to protect people

The environment isn't worth protecting by itself? How are you going to implement this? What if the area isn't populated? Does it still count? Who do you "compensate"? Everyone within 50 miles? 500 miles? Everyone on the planet?

there is a balance.

There always has been. Why do you think the oil companies always choose the one that maximises profit? That's capitalism.

because the oil company is not required to pay their full costs of action #2, the balance is shifted in favor of action #2. hold the companies accountable for the accidents they may cause, and you will find the balance which minimizes the total costs inflicted by the choice between #1 and #2.

But who IMPLEMENTS it? Government? What if a multi-billion dollar oil company fucks up an island somewhere. Does the island take on the oil corporations lawyers? Do you think they have much chance of success?

even the "good" kind that exists only in theory, will still fail, because it throws economic sense into the wind,

Hang on mush, even the WORST kind of "communism" under Stalin brought the Soviet Union from a third world country to an economic powerhouse capable of defeating the most powerful army the world had ever seen.

because your competitor is also required to compensate people for losses

How do you implement this mush? Some kind of "world government" who casts judgement on any oil company in any country on earth? What if the government in the US is hard on oil companies but the one in China isn't?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2992311 - 08/11/04 05:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The environment isn't worth protecting by itself?

it is, but only to the extent that it helps human beings. if a particular environmental policy has an overall net effect that is negative across the entire human population, it is a bad policy.

if human beings are being hurt more than helped by an environmental policy, it is a poor one.

limiting pollution is not free. if we desired to completely eliminate environmental damage, we would all have to kill ourselves, lest we have to piss, shit, kill animals, and build fire. there is a certain amount of pollution that is tolerable. this amount is reached when we strike a balance between the cost of limiting the pollution and the damage that the pollution causes to the welfare of human beings.

when we reach this point, where costs to human beings is minimized, any more environmental controls would hurt us more than the pollution it aims to control, and any more allowed environmental damage would hurt us more than would taking the measures to prevent it.

we should not attempt to completely eliminate pollution at this point, nor should we get rid of any and all environmental controls. there is a reasonable balance which results in the least amount of overall harm to human beings. do you understand?

There always has been. Why do you think the oil companies always choose the one that maximises profit?

i've already explained this to you. the pollution caused is what is known, in economic terms, as an externality. because the oil companies do not absorb the cost of this externality, the equilibrium they arrive at is different from the one that is the most socially preferrable. if they were forced to internalize the externality, as they should and would be under a fully capitalist system, the amount of environmental control they would arrive at would be the one that would be the most socially preferable. it would be the reasonable course of action resulting in the least harm to human beings, as i explained in my response to your previous statement.

But who IMPLEMENTS it?

seeing that the costs of using dangerous ships outwiegh the costs of investing in safer modes of transportation, the oil companies themselves do. it's that damn profit motive in action.  :smirk:

How do you implement this mush? Some kind of "world government" who casts judgement on any oil company in any country on earth? What if the government in the US is hard on oil companies but the one in China isn't?

that's a problem that no domestic policy can fully address.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2994425 - 08/12/04 02:12 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

seeing that the costs of using dangerous ships outwiegh the costs of investing in safer modes of transportation

How do you figure? And who works out this "compensation" you keep talking about? What if the people on the coastline where the oil tanker breaks open only make 10 bucks a day? Does the oil company only have to recompense at their annual wage rate? That's the "free market" after all. You do understand that isn't going to affect the profits of a multi-billion dollar oil enterprise?

that's a problem that no domestic policy can fully address.

So in other words your theory is a busted flush. If the US government cracks down on oil spills, the oil corporation simply move to China. And if you introduce compensation related to the wealth of the people around the spill the oil companies re-route all their ships to use even more dangerous and unsafe routes around poor countries where the fines from spills are cheaper. Pointless.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2994946 - 08/12/04 09:21 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

How do you figure? And who works out this "compensation" you keep talking about?

the courts. it's called civil liability. it has nothing to do with the wages the victims earn either.

So in other words your theory is a busted flush.

it's as best as a domestic policy can do. tell me what domestic policy you think would effectively prevent other countries from doing the very same thing?

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InvisibleCJay
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Registered: 02/02/04
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? - also RE: mushmaster [Re: silversoul7]
    #2995187 - 08/12/04 10:49 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I realise what you are saying - I also realise that under virtually every political model humanity has attempted to exist, we reach exactly the same impasse.

Therefore surely all governments are in the same dispicable league and politicians themselves (no matter the doctrine) are cut from the same shit stained cloth.

As is also the case with all major hierarchical institutions such as the churches of the world.

This is why I think the drug war is not only anti-capitalist it actually serves to protect this system of governmental and institutional one-upmanship over citizens/worshippers. This system of dominance by power addicts.

For no matter what the party, the ideology, or the church (and no matter how noble their precepts)- their actions bely their true character. And it is the same character.

Legalised psychedellics offer the opportunity of quelling the personality traits which currently grow to obscene proportions in this type of person (ie. simply put - power addiction). And as well as this they offer space for freedom of ideas, culture etc - this is basically an opportunity for Love to eclipse politics per ce. Which is the great fear of this dispicable league, and hence the greatest taboo. They want your consciousness, and they want it a certain way; they want dominion over others. (And their character type thrives on division - a kind divide and rule tactic)

Therefore the dark chaos that is the war they 'must' fight against unregulated cocaine + crack, is perfect for their needs. It is a fortification of their position; and fighting this war is perfect reasoning for them to explain one more 'good' reason we need them there in that andocratic position they cherish. As well as this it throws attention off their real drug fear, the psychedellics.

Generally speaking, the masses of the world simply want to trade fairly, to get along with each other and to get along with life - they want peace. The masses from any nation, no matter what political system they live in. People everywhere want the same thing.

So it would seem that the drug war is anti-partnership, and pro-dominance. And all the world's governments are pretty much too.

So as well as being anti-capitalist the drug war is a much deeper issue, it is actually anti-equality, anti-partnership, anti-freedom and basically anti-evolution.

What do you think?

Edited by CJay (08/13/04 11:32 PM)

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