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OfflineDoctorJ
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Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975515 - 08/07/04 01:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

the drug war is one of the greatest republican hypocrisies, in that it is totally communist.

But then again, so is the FDA.

As much as I disagree with the extreme communism of the drug war, On the other side of the spectrum you have doctors selling people harmful, addictive medication that they dont need under the guise of the hyppocratic oath. If all drugs were completely unregulated, I fear the consequences would be dire.

hopefully, some compromise between these positions can be reached. Mind-altering drugs have the potential of dynamite; they must be handled carefully.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975530 - 08/07/04 01:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
It's capitalistic to prohibit the sale of substances which would most certainly cause a massive shift in values because people would begin to value material things less and less.



Sorry, but you are waaaaaaaay wrong. Sounds more like statism, socialism or communism which rely on appeals to the collective and the enforcement of conformity. You still have not explained how prohibiting the sale and purchase of goods is capitalistic. You still have not explained how taking accumulated capital away from people (asset forfeiture) is capitalistic.

FYI, drugs are material things, they affect the physical and chemical function of the brain. Drugs are sold for money, people accumulate drugs for sale (the drugs are capital). People accumulate money (capital) from the sale of drugs. People invest in equipment (capital) to produce drugs. Do not conflate the desire to enforce conformity with the actions of capitalism, they are not the same.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2975532 - 08/07/04 01:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Positivity, love and understanding are not anti-capitalist concepts.




No, but in the end they cause materialistic values to fade away. That's dangerous to a capitalistic society. As deafpanda said, materialism and capitalism go hand in hand.

Quote:

LDS said:

I don't believe in the spirit world.




That's fine. I have no way of proving if it's real or not. But since everything on earth becomes one with with earth again when it "dies" I can only assume that the same thing happens to our souls if souls in fact exist.






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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975558 - 08/07/04 01:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Most people would eventually learn which drugs are most dangerous and then stay away from them. Especially since, if drugs were legal, factual information would be tought to the public.


Evolving: You may be right. I just think it's in the best interest of "the machine" to keep drugs which would destroy it, illegal.

Ok, i'm gone for tonight. I'll be back tomorrow.







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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975569 - 08/07/04 02:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Any adult should have the right to destroy himself in any way he/she sees fit. I, however, have no obligation to bail him/her out. Supersize me, indeed. Capitalism has nothing to do with it. It's a non-sequitur. And since when is this a Republican thing?????

"mind altering drugs have the potential of dynamite; they must be handled carefully." Really? And who will be deciding who is sane or insane enough to be allowed to take them? You??


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975657 - 08/07/04 02:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Capitalism is not the same as materialism.

That is all.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975668 - 08/07/04 02:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Evolving: You may be right. I just think it's in the best interest of "the machine" to keep drugs which would destroy it, illegal.



Very true, but what does that have to do with capitalism?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975705 - 08/07/04 02:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This question depends upon what one sees as the specific definition of 'capitalism'. some define it as an entire ideology that is dependent upon and encourages materialism or the accumulation of private property, others (like most in this thread) merely equate it with the complete lack of regulation upon goods and services.

Disregarding that semantic question, let me pose this question a different way. Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2975726 - 08/07/04 02:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see how it would have hugely negative consequences. Drugs would be taxed to fuck, new businesses would grow making drugs, accommodating drug users (shroom bars, maybe) and providing equipment and so on for drug use.

The fact drugs are prohibited comes from a lot of factors. A big one is the way altered states of consciousness are seen as being inherently wrong. Society thinks everyone would, er...go to pot.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2975727 - 08/07/04 02:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Disregarding that semantic question, let me pose this question a different way. Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?



It would most likely have a positive effect on the economy overall if drugs were legalized. However, there are certain special interest groups such as pharmaceutical companies and the liquor and tobacco lobbies who would stand to lose ground in such an event. Note that these special interest groups are deep in the pockets of the government, and that they are essentially trying to minimize their competition, which is an inherently anti-capitalist idea.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2975730 - 08/07/04 02:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Any adult should have the right to destroy himself in any way he/she sees fit.




OK. But would you really want to live in a country without an organization like the FDA, making sure your meat wasnt packed in unsafe conditions, making sure spoilable products have expiration dates, and attempting to prevent harmful addictive substances from being sold as medicine?

I in no way shape or form support the prohibition of recreational drugs, but organizations like the FDA are an example of necessary communism.

Quote:

And since when is this a Republican thing?????




I didnt mean to imply that republicans are solely responsible for the WOD (unfortunately the WOD is supported by idiots in all areas of the political spectrum), but they are the only party which endorses it while simultaneously claiming to be hardcore capitalists. Hence my usage of the word 'hypocrisy'.

Quote:

Really? And who will be deciding who is sane or insane enough to be allowed to take them? You??




sigh. back to this again. its obvious that religious and political leaders have fucked you in the past, making you think that you cant trust anyone. I dont trust most people myself either. But I do trust science, for it has given me air conditioning, transportation, telecommunication, and a myriad of other things that have actually worked to solve many of life's problems. No religious or political ideology has done for me what science has done.

If there is scientific evidence that methamphetamines are bad for almost everyone, that they destroy the liver and cardiovascular system, that they are nuerotoxic, addictive, and irreversably change behavior in very antisocial ways in the majority of people who take them, then why should they be allowed to be sold as medicine in any but the most appropriate of circumstances?

Sure, some people like the high and are well aware of the damage it does and dont care. I dont have a problem with that. I dont have a problem with meth being sold as a recreational drug as long as it is acknowledged by both the seller and the buyer how bad the drug is. EDIT: And as long as I dont have to deal with the consequences of the meth-head's decisions.

But do you realize how many practitioners are abusing the patient/doctor trust by recommending methamphetamines when they arent necessary or beneficial? I'm telling you, its an epidemic. How many kids today are diagnosed with "ADHD" just for being rowdy kids? How many gullible parents are trusting their doctors and putting their kids on these meds, causing their children lifelong problems? I was born in 81, and over half the people I know have been prescribed adderol or ritalin at one point in their lives, whether they needed it or not. Many of these people would never have taken that shit if it werent for the direction (and in the case of anyone under 16- forced administration) of doctors. Shit, my mother has my little brother strung out on that shit right now, the doctors have her soooo convinced that there is something 'wrong' with him. He's 13 and couldnt legally refuse treatment if he wanted to. By the time he's old enough to say no, the damage will have already been done. Do you think that's right?

You're so worried about 1984, but all I see is a Brave New World, and its being supported by greedy doctors and pharmacuetical companies who abuse their authority and trust to hornswaggle patients into taking unnecessary harmful medication.

I dont have an issue with meth being sold, I have an issue with how it is being sold. And I believe that organizations like the FDA need to step in and regulate, as scientific evidence compels them to do.

Edited by DoctorJ (08/07/04 02:55 PM)

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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2975737 - 08/07/04 02:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?




I'm sorry but I don't follow at all. How could it possibly have a negative effect upon the economy as a whole? Legitimate manufacturing and farming jobs would be created in a new, thriving industry. The direct sale of drugs would also be beneficial. Can you elaborate upon the perceived negative consequences?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2975738 - 08/07/04 02:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Most people would eventually learn which drugs are most dangerous and then stay away from them.




I see no evidence to support that.  If you put a rat in a room with two buttons- one of which dispenses food when pressed, the other of which dispenses cocaine when pressed, the rat will eventually quit pressing the food button and keep self-administering cocaine until it starves to death. 

Quote:


Especially since, if drugs were legal, factual information would be tought to the public.




by who?  The companies that market the drugs? 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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OfflineLothar121
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Registered: 04/15/03
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975796 - 08/07/04 03:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The drug war is both anti conservative and anti liberal at the same time.

Every side should support the repeal of it, conservatives citing fiscal responsibility, liberals citing personal liberty.

Where are the true liberals and conservatives?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975801 - 08/07/04 03:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lothar121 said:
Where are the true liberals and conservatives?



Certainly not in the Democratic or Republican party.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975805 - 08/07/04 03:22 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lothar121 said:
The drug war is both anti conservative and anti liberal at the same time.

Every side should support the repeal of it, conservatives citing fiscal responsibility, liberals citing personal liberty.

Where are the true liberals and conservatives?




"If there's a new way... I'll be the first in line. But it better work this time."

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975810 - 08/07/04 03:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

A lot of liberals (At least in the UK) do actually support drug decriminalization.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2975853 - 08/07/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?




I'm sorry but I don't follow at all. How could it possibly have a negative effect upon the economy as a whole? Legitimate manufacturing and farming jobs would be created in a new, thriving industry. The direct sale of drugs would also be beneficial. Can you elaborate upon the perceived negative consequences?




well, this is all theoretical speculation, but I think that what LF is getting at is this:

People who are allowed to take psychedelic drugs, which are a cheap source of meaningful entertainment, will probably be less likely to go out to movies, nice restaraunts, and indulge in other consumer services. They will probably be less likely to be so concerned about 'keeping up with the joneses', which is a powerful psychological force that encourages rampant consumerism. It makes sense because a person who takes psychedelics regularly is less likely to be so concerned about trivial things, many of which are a large part of our economy. Fashion, for instance.

People who drink or snort coke on the other hand are going to be more interested in the superficial, materialistic things that make up a large part of the economy: luxury cars, being waited on hand and foot, fashion, interior decoration, etc...

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975867 - 08/07/04 03:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Capitalism is not the same as materialism.

That is all.




but the sudden abscence of materialism in a capitalist society could take a lot of money out of certain pockets which have come to depend on said money.

Edited by DoctorJ (08/07/04 03:49 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2975877 - 08/07/04 03:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Do you think that a large reason drugs remain illegal is because of the presumable negative consequences it would have upon the economy?




I'm sorry but I don't follow at all. How could it possibly have a negative effect upon the economy as a whole? Legitimate manufacturing and farming jobs would be created in a new, thriving industry. The direct sale of drugs would also be beneficial. Can you elaborate upon the perceived negative consequences?




well, this is all theoretical speculation, but I think that what LF is getting at is this:

People who are allowed to take psychedelic drugs, which are a cheap source of meaningful entertainment, will probably be less likely to go out to movies, nice restaraunts, and indulge in other consumer services. They will probably be less likely to be so concerned about 'keeping up with the joneses', which is a powerful psychological force that encourages rampant consumerism. It makes sense because a person who takes psychedelics regularly is less likely to be so concerned about trivial things, many of which are a large part of our economy. Fashion, for instance.

People who drink or snort coke on the other hand are going to be more interested in the superficial, materialistic things that make up a large part of the economy: luxury cars, being waited on hand and foot, fashion, interior decoration, etc...



I take psychedelics, but I still shop at the mall, go to the movies, and eat out. Granted, I don't care about the latest fashion trends and whatnot, but I still consume. Even people who don't buy Abercrombie & Fitch still buy clothes, and even people who don't listen to N'Sync still buy music, and even people who don't drive a Lexus still drive cars. Plus, the average psychedelic user would contribute to the economy simply by buying drugs.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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