Home | Community | Message Board

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: capitalism [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3820178 - 02/22/05 11:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm wondering--are there other ways of building a railroad that don't involve a government-sanctioned monopoly? Seems to me that a railroad requires a monopoly of sorts.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: capitalism [Re: Silversoul]
    #3820311 - 02/22/05 11:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sure many American Indians would say, "So the fuck what? Genocide requires a monopoly (on legal violence) as well."

Perhaps we should contemplate the different course things might have taken if some were not given special privileges and favors by governments. Would we have less pollution, a lower use of fossil fuels, less military involvement in the mid-east and a more agrarian and self-sufficient society if government had kept their hands out of building highways?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: capitalism [Re: Silversoul]
    #3820979 - 02/23/05 04:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That's what I'm saying - railways are a natural monopoly. It makes most sense and is fairly likely that one firm will operate them. Monopolies tend to make super-normal profits. There is a lot of inneficiency due to lack of competition.

I think that there should be safeguards to ensure competition in the free-market as there are constitutions to ensure rights in a democracy.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: capitalism [Re: deafpanda]
    #3821021 - 02/23/05 05:24 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The point being made here is that every example of monopoly you have presented involves businesses operating in areas requiring infrastructure spanning an entire country -- cable, water, rail, phone lines, electrical lines etc. In every case, the rights to build that infrastructure are preferentially granted to those businesses who successfully suck up to the government. That is why in every case it is government who sets the pricing.

You cannot use the very antithesis of Capitalism -- government intervention in the free market -- to discredit Capitalism.

Give us a single example of a monopoly not involving government-granted infrastructure arising in even a quasi-capitalist economy which has lasted longer than the length of a patent and you might have an argument.


Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #3821240 - 02/23/05 08:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I assumed that in a libertarian society anyone who had the ability and willingness to could set up such things as a railway. Was this correct?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying - are you saying that the only reason monopolies exist in such industries is that the government grants exclusive rights to the infrastructure to a firm?

I was saying that without any government intervention, monopolies in such industries (characterised by high barriers to entry) are likely enough to happen sometimes.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #3821280 - 02/23/05 08:22 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Give us a single example of a monopoly not involving government-granted infrastructure arising in even a quasi-capitalist economy which has lasted longer than the length of a patent and you might have an argument.




Microsoft!

But that one is based on government issued copyright which is now valid for 170 years

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: capitalism [Re: Cyber]
    #3821347 - 02/23/05 08:52 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Microsoft is not a monopoly. Most people are too lazy to try other operating systems, I have used both Linux and Unix on PC's, there is also the Be operating system and a few others. I remember a few years ago my dad was complaining about Microsoft and I told him that I had Linux on my computer and it crashed a lot less. His response was that he didn't want to try and learn something new! This is typical of those who complain about windows - no one is stopping them from using something different but themselves.

I do however agree that a copyright of 170 years is excessive, but it would be pretty sad if people were using the same crappy operating system in 170 years.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: capitalism [Re: deafpanda]
    #3821863 - 02/23/05 11:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

deafpanda writes:

I assumed that in a libertarian society anyone who had the ability and willingness to could set up such things as a railway.

Correct.

are you saying that the only reason monopolies exist in such industries is that the government grants exclusive rights to the infrastructure to a firm?

Correct.

I was saying that without any government intervention, monopolies in such industries (characterised by high barriers to entry) are likely enough to happen sometimes.

Based on what supposition?


Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #3826947 - 02/24/05 10:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I was saying that without any government intervention, monopolies in such industries (characterised by high barriers to entry) are likely enough to happen sometimes.



I think there's a chance you're not looking at the big picture here. You're thinking of this specific industry, the railroad industry, functioning as it has with the favor of government. In a capitalist United States, it would certainly not have occurred like such. I am as far as one can be from an expert on the technicalities of this topic, so I'll stick to generalities -- with regard to a transcontinental railway system, if it was possible (and moreover, plausible) to be built by a single firm, than it was possible to be built by many firms. Granting that, if the profit motive was there, competition would certainly have existed. A transcontinental railroad, however, seems an absurd thing for private enterprise to have invested in -- more like than not there would have been innumerable companies securing property rights and building local or pseudo-local railroads. It is not difficult to see that local railroads (say from Boston to NYC, or New Orleans to Atlanta) would leave many more investors with the capital needed to enter the business if they deemed it worthy.

Another thing you have to realize: railroads are only a microcosm of what has to be looked here -- TRANSPORTATION (either freight or passenger) is the big picture. Even if (big if) there was somehow a monopoly, oligopoly, cartel, what have you, in the railway industry, the other means of transportation would act as a huge check and balance on it. How many ways are there to transport things today?

ps. Please excuse the awful prose -- need to get back into the groove, heh.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: capitalism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3827202 - 02/24/05 11:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I understand what you're saying and agree when it comes to transportation.

My question earlier in this thread and in other threads has been about water supply. It simply does not make sense that water wouldn't be a monopoly. Sure there could be multiple companies in a state or even within a city but they would be providing to a specific region. I find it very hard to believe that multiple water companies would exist in the same region. Not only because of the cost but because people wouldn't allow multiple companies to go around digging up their backyard to lay new water pipes. It seems that at least in that particular industry a monopoly is not only inevitable but beneficial as it is the most efficient system. So if a water company has a monopoly with no government intervention their prices could soar. On the other hand if the government and thus, at least in theory, the citizens are able to control the water price a more beneficial arrangement could be procured.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Chirac proposes international socialism RandalFlagg 432 1 01/27/05 08:33 AM
by lonestar2004
* Sweatshops and Globalization
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
ekomstop 8,310 133 09/28/04 06:29 AM
by Tao
* The nightmarish reality of global capitalism carbonhoots 982 7 08/19/07 05:27 PM
by lonestar2004
* Corporations are not capitalism Evolving 858 4 10/11/04 11:56 PM
by Worf
* Capitalism or Communism? Which is better?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
HagbardCeline 6,454 95 06/27/03 12:28 AM
by downforpot
* Why Does Capitalism Get Such A Bum Rap?
( 1 2 all )
JesusChrist 2,001 29 12/08/21 10:25 PM
by CreonAntigone
* Iceland protestors call for international protest ekomstop 879 2 02/20/05 07:24 PM
by ekomstop
* Is worldwide Capitalism impossible?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Phred 5,674 80 07/15/03 04:18 AM
by hongomon

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
16,029 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 24 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.