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InvisibletrendalM
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The United States is NOT Capitalist...
    #570143 - 03/05/02 02:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This started in another thread, here:

*** oops -- I tried to shorten the link so it wouldn't widen the window and make us all scroll indefinitely, but goofed it up entirely. Mea Culpa. (pinky)


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Edited by pinksharkmark (07/12/03 07:27 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570144 - 03/05/02 02:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The United States of America is not Capitalist.

In a Capitalist society:
-there is total separation between economy and State
-there is no taxation
-the government's only purpose is to protect it's citizens from force or fruad

In the United States:
-the economy is interfered with by the government
-lots of taxes
-the government infringes upon individual rights and freedoms in the name of "good"


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570199 - 03/05/02 04:26 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, no shit.

Similarly, the Soviet Union was not Socialist, rather state-capitalist.

The United States is, however, certainly capitalist (lower case) or rather pro-capitalist despite state intervention in the market, etc. Likewise, the Soviet Union was pro-socialism.

What's your point?


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570353 - 03/05/02 10:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

z


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (05/04/10 03:06 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Lallafa]
    #570431 - 03/05/02 12:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I do think that pure capitalism would be a good thing. For starters, drugs would be completely legal in a true capitalist society.

Imagine having the freedom to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of another.

And you're entirely right, Agent Cooper. The US was founded on capitalist principles, and some of those principles exist to this day.

My point is that it is extremely unfair when people blame our society's faults on capitalism, when it is the capitalist spirit that is responsible for advancing our society as far as it has.

It was capitalist ideals that allowed a handful of pioneers, refugees, outcasts, and slaves to create one of the largest and most successful coutries in the world in the space of only a couple hundred years. It is capitalism that has consistantly pushed our standard of living ever higher. It is capitalism that continually advances the medical sciences that we take for granted.

Our society's current "problems" are not the result of capitalism, they are the result of the government's interference in both the market and society. If the US government had stuck to pure capitalism from the start...I can not imagine how far our society would have come.

An excellent example of what happens in the near opposite of capitalism is the former Soviet Union. When the State interferes with the Economy to this extent, poverty results. Progress, both scientific and social, slows to a crawl.

Competition is a vital part of humanity. Any attempt to subdue man's inate competitive nature will inevitably fail, and it always has. Capitalism is the only form of government which allows total freedom of competition, which in turn drives standard of living and social/technological advancement ever higher.

So yes, pure capitalism would be a wonderful thing.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570488 - 03/05/02 01:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

z


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (05/04/10 03:06 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Lallafa]
    #570573 - 03/05/02 03:34 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"the US has never been purely capitalist"
What I meant was that the US was founded on Republic and Capitalist ideals, but somewhere along the way Democracy took over (at least in part).

And no, in a true capitalism (which, I know, is something of a pipe-dream) the vast majority would own what they worked for. One of the basic ideas behind capitalism is that everyone gets what they work for. No more, and no less. The only people who would own "nothing" are the ones who don't try. If you want something, you work for it. If you work for something, you will get it (at least in capitalism). If you don't work for anything, you don't deserve anything and you won't get anything. Plain and simple. Capitalism "distributes" wealth justly: the harder you work, the more you get.

And so what if it's not a "level playing field"? Life isn't a level playing field. Having an advantage over others isn't a bad thing, and it's not bad for a person to use his or her advantage. Advantage is a natural part of life, and is the driving force behind evolution (both in a biological and social sense). Are you trying to imply that because some have a greater advantage than others, they should be brought down to the level of "the norm"? Read "Harrison Bergeron", by Kurt Vonnegut.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570590 - 03/05/02 03:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah but you end up with the situation we had in the 1900's - a handful of big buisnessmen paying workers nothing and forcing children to work down the mines at 10 years old. Just like what's happening now in the third world now where corporations are free to run riot.

It took a hundred years of struggle by ordinary men against big business, in the face of murder, extreme violence and intimidation to get basic human rights. The corporations, with government help, are now destroying them again. It's time to get organised and take these ruthless bastards on again for our childrens sake.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... *DELETED* [Re: trendal]
    #570607 - 03/05/02 04:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Lallafa

Reason for deletion: i dont really know what im talking about



--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570610 - 03/05/02 04:34 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

i am repeating what someone else said, none of this is my own viewpoint


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (05/04/10 03:07 PM)


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Lallafa]
    #570620 - 03/05/02 04:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

One of the basic ideas behind capitalism is that everyone gets what they work for.




Wrong. Remuneration according to effort and sacrifice does not generate upperward-flowing capital. Such remuneration is a concept of participatory economic theory and certain forms of libertarian socialism, not capitalism where the owners of private property absorb capital from the work of others who are lower in the workplace hierarchy. Essentially, one's labor does not necessarily determine the amount or the type of renumeration, rather one's proximity and relation to ownership does.

In reply to:

Advantage is a natural part of life, and is the driving force behind evolution.




So is mutual aid.


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570631 - 03/05/02 04:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Any attempt to subdue man's inate competitive nature will inevitably fail, and it always has.




So mankind is inherently competitive? Prove it - please demonstrate how in every culture and every society past and present mankind has competed. Show me one society that was based upon competition and I'll show you 20 that were based upon and functioned via cooperation.

Human nature is incredibly complex, my friend. Simplisitic explanation of human nature such as yours usually do not fly. Very few things can be certain.

You know what else does not fly? The airline industry without state intervention.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #570636 - 03/05/02 05:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

z


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (05/04/10 03:07 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Lallafa]
    #570678 - 03/05/02 06:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well our opinions are devided, I suppose.

I am not a fan of Democracy. "Mob rule" does not defend the rights of the individual at all, because whatever "the mob" wants, the mob gets. What the mob wants isn't always right.

I find the ideals behind Capitalism, specifically it's roots in Natural Law, to be fair and just. And that's my opinion.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570764 - 03/05/02 08:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: trendal]
    #570817 - 03/05/02 09:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

z


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (05/04/10 03:07 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Lallafa]
    #570843 - 03/05/02 09:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Lallafa writes:

"the US has never been purely capitalist"

Technically true. But they were ALMOST purely capitalist for roughly a century, and certainly by far the closest thing the world has seen yet to pure capitalism. The two major flaws in place from day one that led to the destruction of capitalism in the US were:

1) the federal government was given the power to regulate interstate commerce

2) the federal government was given the power to mint the official currency.

"pure capitalism would create a situation where a very few own everything, and the vast majority own nothing."

And you base this groundless assertion on...? This comment is one of the most commonly parroted "truisms" that opponents of capitalism reflexively spout. When I ask, "Please explain how this would occur", I am met with silence, or something like "If you are too stupid to figure it out on your own, I am not going to explain it to you. It is obvious!" Well, I guess I AM too stupid to figure it out on my own, because to me it is far from obvious. Can you help me out?

"you need to remember that its not possible to begin with."

Not so. It IS possible to begin with. Imagine the first century of the existence of the US, but with gold or silver as a medium of exchange, and the federal government keeping its hands off interstate commerce (which it pretty much did anyway until the invention of railways).

"also, it would be a "wonderful thing" if it was a level playing field, which it is not.
some are born with certain advantages that are not a product of their genetics"

This is true in ANY society. No one can pick their parents. Some individuals are also born into single-parent homes, or abusive homes, or are orphaned at an early age. By the laws of nature, some individuals will ALWAYS be more capable than other individuals. No system of government will ever change that metaphysical fact. Besides, there are intelligent, beautiful, physically-fit individuals born into wealthy families who are simply not ambitious. These are the ones who get puking sick of hearing parents and teachers constantly wail "You could do so much MORE!" Despite all their advantages, these trust-funders will simply fritter away their inheritance. They are just drones.

There are also individuals who are butt-ugly weaklings of mediocre intelligence born into poor families but have the ambition and determination to be able to amass substantial sums of wealth by the time they are forty.

What does that say about level playing fields?

"pure capitalism would fucking suck."

Why? Exactly what is wrong with a system that leaves you free to do whatever you please as long as you don't violate the rights of others? I honestly don't get what "sucks" about it.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #570872 - 03/05/02 10:15 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Trendal writes:

"One of the basic ideas behind capitalism is that everyone gets what they work for."

Not exactly true. It is more accurate to say that under capitalism, individuals can KEEP the products of their efforts.

Agent Cooper writes:

"Wrong. Remuneration according to effort and sacrifice does not generate upperward-flowing capital."

Who cares whether the capital flows up or down? The point is that under capitalism, the capital earned by the individual --ANY individual-- remains the property of that individual. Whether he chooses to let it flow "upward" by reinvesting it in some productive enterprise or let it flow "downward" by buying consumer goods or donating to charities is his choice, and his alone.

"Such remuneration is a concept of participatory economic theory and certain forms of libertarian socialism, not capitalism where the owners of private property absorb capital from the work of others who are lower in the workplace hierarchy."

A fancy way of saying that under capitalism those who choose not to run a one-man business (and therefore need workers) agree to enter into a mutually voluntary contract wherein they will exchange capital (usually currency) for labor.

"Essentially, one's labor does not necessarily determine the amount or the type of renumeration..."

True. Someone who cleans toilets 8 hours a day will not earn as much as someone who fixes automobiles 6 hours a day.

"...rather one's proximity and relation to ownership does."

Not true at all. There are countless cases where some employees of a given business make more than the owners of those businesses do. This is more often seen in small businesses than in large publicly-held corporations.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Lallafa]
    #570890 - 03/05/02 10:37 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Lallafa writes:

"im trying to imply that fools such as george w. inherit all of their wealth and stay filthy rich without working for shit. thats why its not level"

So what? How does some fool in Beverly Hills who has been a trust-funder from the day he was born --guzzling champagne, snorting cocaine, being overcharged by interior decorators for some enormous mausoleum of a mansion with a garage full of Ferraris and Bentleys-- prevent me from living my life as I see fit? His good fortune does not prevent me from achieving my goals. He is irrelevant to me.

"when monied interests..."

Please define what or who you mean by "monied interests".

"... begin to take precedence over the wellbeing of the people..."

Who decides what is "wellbeing"? Who decides who comprises "the people"?

"... you cease to have any form of a democracy"

Good. Democracy (by definition majority rule) is demonstrably unjust.

"without liability..."

Corporations are liable under a capitalist system. If they do harm they can be brought to court just as can individuals.

"... and without laws to keep jobs here rather than overseas..."

So it is the right of a government to limit their citizens to forming businesses with no employees outside the country? How is this not a violation of individual rights?

"... in the name of profits..."

No one sets up a business to be unprofitable, just as no one takes a job in order to LOSE money.

"... a corporation can easily become reckless"

Define "reckless". If they violate the rights of others, they can be prosecuted. If they recklessly lose money, they will go bankrupt.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The United States is NOT Capitalist... [Re: Phred]
    #570908 - 03/05/02 10:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

z


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (05/04/10 03:08 PM)


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