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Anonymous

A question for the scientific minds
    #1246166 - 01/24/03 03:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I admit, I'm a "believer". I have faith in things that can't be calculated, measured, categorized, or directly observed with our five senses. Now, this is an honest question for those who don't believe in things beyond the physical world: What causes you to reject faith in something beyond the bounds of scientific inquiry? Are you afraid you'll end up believing in something that may be wrong (please be honest)? Or is it that you're truly certain there is nothing that exists that cannot be observed with the human scientific method? Would you be willing to speculate that there are things that exist in the universe that cannot be calculated, measured, or observed with our senses?

To be fair, I'll give my personal reason for faith, and that is I believe there are things that exist that we can't measure, and this is possible because of atoms vibrating faster than we can perceive (picture a string vibrating: you barely see the middle, only the top and bottom of the motion; any faster vibration may cause it to disappear from our sight due to our limited visual "frame rate"). Also, our level of technology is like Neanderthal man compared to what is possible to achieve.  :shocked: 


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1246190 - 01/24/03 03:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Would you be willing to speculate that there are things that exist in the universe that cannot be calculated, measured, or observed with our senses?



This is a question I have asked many times... Humans havn't been around nearly as long as many other species of life and the Earth and stars themselves. Just try and imagine humanity as a 50 million year-old species.............................................
kinda hard, isn't it?

Maybe we are just aware of a fraction of reality. I know it hurts man's ego sometimes to think that, but it is definately possible, especially when speculating about 50-million year-old sentient life. :wink: 


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineMurex
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1246482 - 01/24/03 05:06 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

...........................................::cricket churp:::

It looks like those vulcans don't want to respond to this. I wonder why.  :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1246533 - 01/24/03 05:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well, for the primitive tribes, electricity would have been considered a mirical from the gods, and now it is just a regular occurence. I think everything will be measurable someday.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1246644 - 01/24/03 05:53 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Now, this is an honest question ...
Perhaps you got so few replies because it hardly sounds like an honest question, but a set-up for an argument.

Are you afraid you'll end up believing in something that may be wrong (please be honest)?
There is no fear involved.

Or is it that you're truly certain there is nothing that exists that cannot be observed with the human scientific method?
There is no certainty involved.

Would you be willing to speculate that there are things that exist in the universe that cannot be calculated, measured, or observed with our senses?
Scientists CONSTANTLY speculate on things unseen, that is how progress has been made. Please do some basic research on famous inventors / discoverers / scientific visionaries.

To be fair, I'll give my personal reason for faith...
Reasons are part of a rational, logical mind. Valid reasons would lead to a valid conclusion, which is not faith as you propose in your opening remarks. One cannot have it both ways.






--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: Swami]
    #1246677 - 01/24/03 06:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Could you please answer the original question instead of analyzing everything all the time?  :confused:

Also, if there aren't any valid "reasons" for faith, then what is the cause of it? 


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: Swami]
    #1246681 - 01/24/03 06:08 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

One cannot have it both ways.



You have said that before, and I disagree with it. I think that we are constantly "having it both ways" because that is the nature of life. If I mis-interpreted your meaning please clarify, oh Swam. :wink: 


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1246812 - 01/24/03 11:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think Swami did answer your question, and he answered it well... As well as a question like that could be answered, at least.  I found this part of it particularly silly:

"Would you be willing to speculate that there are things that exist in the universe that cannot be calculated, measured, or observed with our senses?"

Haha! :wink:

-RebelSteve





--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1247186 - 01/25/03 05:50 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think I'm with Swami on this one.

I would argue that if something can't be seen or detected in any way then either it doesn't really exist or, at least, it doesn't matter. The world is vast and amazing enough that I do not need to populate it with additional objects or beings that cannot be seen, heard, or detected.

Part 2 of why I reject faith in things beyond the physical world is that there is no way to choose which version of a non-physical world. Why should I choose a Buddhist version over a Christian version (those are arbitrary - fill in any you want)? There are dozens of relatively accepted versions and undoubtedly thousands of obscure ones, not to mention countless others which nobody has yet thought of. Many of these versions contradict each other or are opposed to others. How can I choose which is "right"?


Perhaps you didn't mean to phrase it that way, but your question sounds very much like a typical opening salvo by someone who wants me to buy into their religion. Whenever I hear a question like that, my first thought is, "what is this person trying to sell me?" I only bring this up because of your response to Swami's response. You asked several questions above, and he broke them out and gave what sound like sincere answers to me.

What sort of response did you expect?


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1247250 - 01/25/03 06:39 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

that if something can't be seen or detected in any way then either it doesn't really exist or, at least, it doesn't matter.



There have been many, many things that could not be measured until our technology was sufficient enough to do so. These things do exist, and do matter. Just because we can't measure them does not mean otherwise.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1247285 - 01/25/03 06:54 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not trying to sell faith to anyone. Some people on this forum seem to mistake my sincerity for something else. I'm just trying to understand why some people think the way they do.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1247326 - 01/25/03 07:22 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What causes you to reject faith in something beyond the bounds of scientific inquiry?

It's not so much that I reject faith, just that I have no way of proving it to be true. In general I need proof beyond reasonable doubt before I believe in something. It's hard to say why, I just do  :smirk:

Are you afraid you'll end up believing in something that may be wrong (please be honest)?

No, because I'm sure I have believed things in the past that turned out wrong, and I'm sure this will happen in the future.

Would you be willing to speculate that there are things that exist in the universe that cannot be calculated, measured, or observed with our senses?

I never rule out a possibility...but personally no I don't think there is anything in this universe which we can not measure and study scientifically.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineFatNug
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: trendal]
    #1247415 - 01/25/03 08:15 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I never rule out a possibility...but personally no I don't think there is anything in this universe which we can not measure and study scientifically.




Come on man you CANNOT be serious with this statement. ! We're sitting on a planet that we know very little about. We're just discovering the deep deep sea. We don't know shit about the universe or the rest of this galaxy. We have no idea what dark matter is or if it does indeed exiss. other edensitys...or dimentions, nope, we know absolutly nothing. The odds are that there ismore than this, MUCH MORE! just so happens we can't see it yet. Does that mean the world is flat? because for all i know it really is. I've never been in space to see for myself.


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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Anonymous

Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1247458 - 01/25/03 08:39 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I would argue that if something can't be seen or detected in any way then either it doesn't really exist or, at least, it doesn't matter. The world is vast and amazing enough that I do not need to populate it with additional objects or beings that cannot be seen, heard, or detected.

Defintions, definitions, defintions.

Part 2 of why I reject faith in things beyond the physical world is that there is no way to choose which version of a non-physical world. Why should I choose a Buddhist version over a Christian version (those are arbitrary - fill in any you want)? There are dozens of relatively accepted versions and undoubtedly thousands of obscure ones, not to mention countless others which nobody has yet thought of. Many of these versions contradict each other or are opposed to others. How can I choose which is "right"?

There are ways to determine prescriptive truth and descriptive truth.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: FatNug]
    #1247611 - 01/25/03 09:59 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Come on man you CANNOT be serious with this statement. ! We're sitting on a planet that we know very little about. We're just discovering the deep deep sea. We don't know shit about the universe or the rest of this galaxy. We have no idea what dark matter is or if it does indeed exiss. other edensitys...or dimentions, nope, we know absolutly nothing. The odds are that there ismore than this, MUCH MORE! just so happens we can't see it yet. Does that mean the world is flat? because for all i know it really is. I've never been in space to see for myself.

Silly guy, I didn't say we knew everything  :smirk:

I said I don't think there is anything out there that we can't know. What we know pales in comparison to what we don't know, but that doesn't mean we can't keep learning...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineFatNug
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: trendal]
    #1248606 - 01/25/03 05:56 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

okay that makes sense, I had misunderstood you...you had me worried there for a second!!  :laugh: 


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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OfflineNomad
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1248809 - 01/25/03 07:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Are you afraid you'll end up believing in something that may be wrong (please be honest)?

Well, yes. The realms of faith are littered with nasty reality holes that suck you in and never let you go again. Everyone who has ever been fully into a belief system knows what I mean. Trying to change or abandon such beliefs is incredibly hard. It feels like betraying yourself.

Yet the universe consists of both the One, and the Ten Thousand Things. And if someone should, accidently, discover the One, no doubt it would be so overwhelming and absolute that there is no more need for faith.

Of course, you can invest faith in one of the Ten Thousand Things, and hope it gives you a ride towards the One. But if it doesn't, be prepared to change your faith from thing #4567 to thing #8763. It's not like you are losing something. Faith can give you the motivation to seek your true self, but it can never reveal it to you. That is because your true self is the one thing you need not have faith in. It will get along just fine, whether you believe or not.

According to the Buddha, you need to have three things in order to gain enlightenment. Great faith. Great doubt. And something else, which has eluded me for the moment. Probably one of those silly precepts again. "Do not eat hot dog buns on fridays", or something like that. No, wait, that was discordian...



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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1249556 - 01/26/03 07:45 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not trying to sell faith to anyone....
...I'm just trying to understand why some people think the way they do.


Faith is a very ever-present thing, but only in certain quatities is it acceptable
imo. There are amounts of it in the moment by moment lives of all of us.

I am positive that there are things beyond what we as humans sense. But as for faith in god and stuff like that.... I, myself, am more interested in why people believe in that type of stuff. I mean, If I believe in one religion then there must be some type of rebuttal against all other religions, right? If i believe that there is a god there must be some type of rebuttal against there being several gods or a magical purple elf, right? I do not see how they are justifying to themselves their beliefs.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: ]
    #1250465 - 01/26/03 03:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"What causes you to reject faith in something beyond the bounds of scientific inquiry?"
Most people without faith would ask the very opposite, why have you chosen faith? And not only that but why did you choose the one you did?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Edited by sir tripsalot (01/26/03 03:49 PM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: A question for the scientific minds [Re: David_Scape]
    #1250525 - 01/26/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Way too many folks link belief in god with religion :wink: WR


--------------------
To old for this place


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