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hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies
    #11536125 -

There was a national geographic artical on 21st century hunter-gatherers that got me thinking. It is about the hadza, a tribal group living in the great rift valley area of tanzania. They are essentially unchanged from how humans lived 10000years ago- but they still do live in a modern world so not 100%. Here is a quote in particular:
Quote:
The Hadza do not engage in warfare. They've never lived densely enough to be seriously threathened by an infectious outbreak. They have no known history of famine; rather, there is evidence of people from a farming group coming to live with them during a time of crop failure. The Hadza diet remains even today more stable and varied than that of most of the world's citizens. They enjoy an extraordinary amount of leisure time. Anthropologists have estimated that they 'work'- actively pursue food- four to six hours a day. And over all these thousands of years, they've left hardly more than a footprint on the land.


Do you think humans made a mistake when we starting to farm, or has it been for the greater good?

I mean, we have modern medicine, communication, cities and all the other goods science has brought us- but we also have constant war, constant disease, constant starvation, and pollute the earth around us.

So what, agriculuture- ruin of humans or one of our greatest developments?


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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11536206 -

they don't have a lot of things, even if they live in harmony with the world. What do they do with those hours of leisure time?

I encourage you to go live with a tribe and see how you like the way of living


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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies *DELETED* [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11536227 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11536235 -

that wasn't exactly how I saw it but you ask a good question


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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11536239 -

Noteworthy said:
I encourage you to go live with a tribe and see how you like the way of living


This is unrealistic. If you were born into it you would find plenty of fulfilling ways to use the leisure time IMO.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11536242 -

http://www.awok.org/worst-mistake/


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11545591 -

Quote:
Do you think humans made a mistake when we starting to farm, or has it been for the greater good?


Absolutely. If this subject interests you then please read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. Its a mid 90's book but should be easy enough to get hold of.

Another worthwhile read (but more technical) is Collapse (why societies choose to fail or survive)by Jared Diamond.


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"In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity."

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Haemaglobin]
    #11545676 -

Quote:
Absolutely.


Really? Did you know that the Ice Age wiped out all but about 600 humans?

Even the article admits most farming started out of necessity. Anyone here know what 'necessity' means? No farming; no backwards-looking people thousands of years hence on the internet to bitch about farming.


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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11545680 -

Quote:
Do you think humans made a mistake when we starting to farm, or has it been for the greater good?


Agriculture can be performed sustainably.  No mistakes.  Consciously.

Consolidation, overproduction, profits oriented stances, competition, genetic engineering...
These things cause um...  Issues.  Big ISSUES.  Big fuckin GLOBAL ISSUES!

Patenting nature and natural processes is the dumbest fucking thing I can think of for our planet.
For example: One cannot use Mycelium for bio-remediation commercially due to patent infringement issues and fear of lawsuit.  WTF??:confused:

*Cha-fuckin-Ching*
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
:boo:

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11545698 -

Did you know that the Ice Age wiped out all but about 600 humans?


Icelander was there. This is how he came by his name.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Icelander]
    #11547234 -

I think agriculture allows people the feeling of control and this is what humans have always seeked. they can make their food on their land and if someone comes to eat it they can kill those people. then they can get the wives and children of those people and get them to work on the farms so that they don't have to do jack shit for a living.


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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Icelander]
    #11547422 -

Many are cold, but few are frozen. ~ Mathew 22


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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11547476 -

True. Plus the added advantage there was a safe place to built temples to "our" god. :hellfire:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11567956 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Absolutely.


Really? Did you know that the Ice Age wiped out all but about 600 humans?

Even the article admits most farming started out of necessity. Anyone here know what 'necessity' means? No farming; no backwards-looking people thousands of years hence on the internet to bitch about farming.


Australian Aborigines had survived until the mid 70's with no farming, no outside help and no major wipeouts. We dont NEED farming.


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"In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity."

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Haemaglobin]
    #11568315 -

Now we do, getting back to hunting and gathering is not a possibility. Too many humans.

However, the question wether agriculture was a good thing or not is interesting... but we might want to consider, as it has been said before that agriculture allowed our civilization to exist. And I find that humans did some fascinating things since they decided to settle down.

I don't think there's an easy answer to this question, it depends of our ideals. One thing though: now we need agriculture, it doesn't matter if it was a good choice or not.

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Haemaglobin]
    #11568410 -

Haemaglobin said:
Another worthwhile read (but more technical) is Collapse (why societies choose to fail or survive)by Jared Diamond.


That's a good read, indeed. A bit more tailored towards this discussion is 'Guns, Germs and Steel', also by Diamond. It specifically outlines the differences between hunter/gatherer and farming societies and the pros and cons associated with both.

Quote:
And I find that humans did some fascinating things since they decided to settle down.


Fact of the matter is that we practically don't know anything about hunter/gatherer societies in the past. Archaeological evidence is extremely scarce, as 99,9% of the archaeological records are from farming societies.

Edited by koraks (12/02/09 09:45 AM)

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11568543 -

However, the question wether agriculture was a good thing or not is interesting..

I think it might be interesting to ask oneself what you would think of a species of primates like us were you to view us from an alien civilization.

For myself I think that the farming revolution was only a mistake in the sense of the human race being so destructive and violent and emotionally dysfunctional (neurotic) and then spreading that around the globe.

As far as spreading humanity as a species without any judgment as to whether it is "good or not"  it was a great success. In the short run anyways.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Icelander]
    #11568870 -

Agreed. Actually, that's where I was going when I mentioned how interesting the human race is today. Just look at your computer, you're browsing the net! How odd is that!
I'm not saying hunters-gatherers weren't interesting civilizations, but ours is much more complex, many things to see and many things to wonder about, many things to do too. Maybe it's a bit too overwhelming sometimes though, living with the conscience of being a dot in a swarm of tiny complex hairless apes...

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Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11568975 -

Maybe it's a bit too overwhelming sometimes though,

Well here it is. Our capacity to handle our intellectual capacity has far outstripped our abilities to change ourselves emotionally from our earliest human ancestors, who imo were mostly fear driven. So we have better and more efficient ways for emotional immaturity to play itself out in the world. The big bomb being a prime example but only one of many.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: hunter-gatherer and agrarian societies [Re: Haemaglobin]
    #11569290 -

Quote:
Australian Aborigines had survived until the mid 70's with no farming, no outside help and no major wipeouts. We dont NEED farming.


Posts are easier to reply to when they make sense. Here you seemingly use the word "we" to refer to two separate groups: both Aborigines and ALL humans.

Dual references and extrapolating a subset to the whole is illogical.


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