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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Evolution and Society
    #2423782 - 03/12/04 01:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that society has influenced the course of evolution. But the question is, has its influence been positive or negative? I am undecided on this, but leaning towards the latter.

Examples of social constructs influencing evolution:

Marriage (monogamy): It screws with the natural reproductive process

The printing press: It gave us a way to store information other than genetics. So instead of new people having to figure everything out on their own, they can now learn from the experiences of others

agriculture: changed the evolutionary survival influence from hunting and gatering to farming and cooperation

the concept of money and trading: displaced the burden of survival from the individual to the group

fashion: influences the sexual selection process

Those are just a few examples. My concern is that these influences have become negative for one reason: Evolution has fallen behind society. It cant move as fast as society. During the time that one evolutionary change takes place, 100 civilizations could come and go.

Society takes the burden off of the individual. Not only is this bad in a social sense, it is bad in an evolutionary or genetic sense as well, because the person who cant take care of himself is now allowed to live and breed whereas before he would have perished and his genes would be deselected.

Our society has come so far in the acknowledgements of certain truths, but our genetics lag far behind. Though our society forbids it, we still have obsolete biological urges like excessive reproduction and violence. Could it be that society happened too early in man's evolutionary process? Isn't it just an artificial way to mold people's behavior while neglecting the very essence of their being? Has society allowed bad genetics to stagnate?

So, is society bad for evolution? Is this important?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2423834 - 03/12/04 02:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Evolution is not necessary a move forward, or an improvment, it's just a series of genetic mutations.

Genetic evolution certainly moves a lot slower than societal change.

Genetically, we may be adapting to become physically weaker. I'm not sure if this is happening to a very strong degree, but it is possible that this is the case. This is because we have found another way to adapt: technology. Our average lifespan is now longer than ever.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phluck]
    #2423850 - 03/12/04 02:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

sure, evolution is just a series of random genetic mutations.

but it is environmental conditions that determine which mutations are selected and which ones arent. Society seeks to dominate environmental conditions, and in doing so, it influences evolution.

But is that influence more positive or more negative?


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2423923 - 03/12/04 02:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Isn't its influence both? A balance of positive and negative? Isn't the pattern still the same, only the numbers different? :lol:

When you talk of evolution, by what do you mean? Our physical characteristics? The evolution of our mind? Both? :wink:

I've lost focus, give me a little while.  :blush:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2423963 - 03/12/04 02:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

everything is a mix of good and bad. but some things are more bad than they are good, or vice versa.

when I talk of evolution I mean our geneticially determined physical characteristics

An individual's mind may develop, but it does not evolve.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2424063 - 03/12/04 03:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, I see what you mean now. :wink:

In physical terms, not so much is required of us anymore. Keeping ourselves fit, even though we should, it isn't a necessity for immediate survival anymore....

Let us talk more of evolution. What of the evolution of society itself? Or say the evolution of ideas and understanding?

Perhaps the focus is really on the evolution of ideas and understanding? Like you said, a mind may develop, but the mind itself doesn't evolve... but our common knowledge base evolves, doesn't it?

Maybe we are evolving right out of the physical realm. :lol:

The thing about evolution, I think, is that it is a lot easier to study it when it has already happened. :laugh:

Hehe, sorry if my thoughts are wide and far between, my mind is in Exploration Mode right now. Enertaining myself with thoughts.  :grin:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2424132 - 03/12/04 03:21 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

any environmental factor that influences survival or sexual reproduction could be considered an evolutionary influence.

The advent of society has changed the rules of the game, both survival and sexual reproduction. But will these changes benefit our genetics over time, or are they detrimental?

before the advent of society and the printing press, each individual human had to figure shit out on their own. Now we have these social institutions that store that information and tell people what to do and how to think. This is good in the terms of the individual lifespan, but is it detrimental to our genetic evolution? One could argue that society has slowed the process of genetic evolution by de-emphasizing individual survivability.

And what about fashion and the sexual selection process? Being an "attractive mate" is now a matter of how well one conforms to the current standards of fashion. How is this affecting the way our species breeds? Is fashion merely a eugenic device for breeding conformity?


--------------------
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InvisibleKthxBye
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2425490 - 03/12/04 11:29 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
agriculture: changed the evolutionary survival influence from hunting and gatering to farming and cooperation





Aside from our own evolution, we've messed with the plant's as well. Domesticated plants evolve towards one thing: usefulness to humans, and so long as we control the enviorment, their survival is assured.

Corn, tobacco, marijuana
all these are now propagated because of properties we want.
This is not a bad thing, however.
We are simply the latest property needed for survival.
With time we'll develop a truly symbiotic relationship with these plants (at a biological level I mean)


--------------------
I know what he wants: a drag of smooth tobbacco blended with the finest Turkish Turkweed. Here, have a toke on me you dumb beast.


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Anonymous

Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2425559 - 03/12/04 11:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2425591 - 03/13/04 12:10 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"is fashion merely a eugenic device for breeding conformity"
are you saying that "conformity" is genetic?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: ]
    #2425602 - 03/13/04 12:19 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm theorizing that conformity might be an attribute which is selected by the social constructs that govern many people's ideas of what is sexually "attractive".

face compositing studies seem to support this. Composite faces are always rated higher in terms of beauty than raw unaltered photographs of faces. This seems to suggest that the attractiveness of faces is a function of averages where deviance from said averages cause "unattractiveness".

As far as fashion goes... well thats just obvious. If conformity to a style of dress influences the probability of sexual reproduction, then it may be that those who are more likely to conform are also more likely to breed.

these are all just ideas I'm tossing out. not too committed to them really, just bouncing em off a wall.


--------------------
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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: ]
    #2425619 - 03/13/04 12:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
I think Phluck might have been referring to the fact that evolution doesn't necessarily seek to improve anything. If that is the case, and mankind is a product of evolution, then whatever effects, societal or otherwise, are a product of evolution as well. If we view it this way it cannot be construed as negative because there is no negative. It is all one process, neither up nor down.

This is similar to the dichotomy between natural and artificial, which is only another dissection along similar lines.




yeah, its a hard thing to separate. But its undeniable that "artificial" social constructs influence breeding and survival. I say they are artificial because they are ethereal ideas that are imposed on people and dont necessarily come naturally to everyone.

For instance, I was told that in parts of Europe, it is the law that you must take care of your children until they are 26, or they have completed a full education, whichever comes first. I would imagine this could have a population control effect on the people. Because having children is a bigger responsibility, people breed less.

As far as survivability goes, well socialist healthcare is a good example. People with bad genetics that cause chronic conditions are taken care of by society instead of left to die on their own. As a result, they live to spread their bad genetics to the next generation. Now, I'm not trying to come off like a right-wing nut or anything here, but isnt it possible that society's unwillingness to allow nature's mistakes to fail is polluting the gene pool?


--------------------
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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: KthxBye]
    #2425639 - 03/13/04 12:36 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Aside from our own evolution, we've messed with the plant's as well. Domesticated plants evolve towards one thing: usefulness to humans, and so long as we control the enviorment, their survival is assured.

Corn, tobacco, marijuana
all these are now propagated because of properties we want.
This is not a bad thing, however.
We are simply the latest property needed for survival.





That, I believe is an entirely different topic altogether, although it is equally interesting.

Quote:

With time we'll develop a truly symbiotic relationship with these plants (at a biological level I mean)





If we make it that far :lol:


My working theory is that before society, evolution more or less moved in a straight line, with very little branching. 

Society supports a kind of "outward branching" evolution that goes in all directions. 

But did we evolve enough in a straight line before we started branching outwards?  Or did we blow our wad too soon?  I suspect the latter. 

unhealthy individuals cannot form a healthy society.  Mankind needed a little more work on the individual before it started building societies.  I feel that our sense of self is not good enough, on the whole, to form beneficial collectives.

the makeshift society we have now is just a crutch, and its making us weaker. 

or maybe not


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2425707 - 03/13/04 12:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2426401 - 03/13/04 07:30 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think we are evolution and evolution is us, simply due to the fact that we have free will and a conscious that has far exceeded our natural instincts. We can comunicate ideas and work together to create machines that make life more comfortabke for us, create a society that is more safe for us. but what does this do? It makes us weaker as people, weaker in every way except with knowledge. I guess you could say we are in the threshold of where we could survive on our own without machine to a time where that would be unthinkable. What are we if we cant even survive in our own home, mother earth with our bare hands? I think the social evolution is going the wrong way...
I think the technological evolution is going the right way for technology, because we are damn good at it, but its not doing any good for our well being, our physical and mental strength and it forces stress upon us.
The day the world goes into spiritual evolution I think the world will be going in the right way.

Do you know that our feet have points where when stimulated it gives us a feeling of well-being and relieves our stress, shoes stand in the way for this stimulation.

When we evolve, socially, as we do, we must keep in mind our physical and mental status will adapt to it, meaning we will only get weaker and weaker, and what will we do the day technology fails?


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2426437 - 03/13/04 07:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
As far as survivability goes, well socialist healthcare is a good example.  People with bad genetics that cause chronic conditions are taken care of by society instead of left to die on their own.  As a result, they live to spread their bad genetics to the next generation.  Now, I'm not trying to come off like a right-wing nut or anything here, but isnt it possible that society's unwillingness to allow nature's mistakes to fail is polluting the gene pool?




Maybe having socialistic healthcare is a good thing for the genetic pool. :wink:

Maybe having the diversity is a good thing for evolution? Having so much diversity within the gene pool would allow for us as humans to survive various things that could come to harm us, you know?

Having that wide gene pool could definitely be useful. It would allow us to adapt more to various things like diseases or something....

Maybe we could look at some circumstances where a shallow gene pool was isolated? Well, we know what happens when you have royal families inbreeding their "strong genes".... they end up not being "quite right", do they?

I remember something about how cheetahs are totally fucked. Apparently there gene pool isn't that diverse and they are hitting some sort of wall that is going to kill them off.... I think that some scientists are even wanting to try bringing in genes from other animals, or something?

And then the selective breeding of like corn... they edit out the "weak" parts and then some disease comes along and then FUCK! No more corn! I believe they grow like the oldest strain of corn they can as well somewhere, keeping it around in case we lose our new strains that we've been fucking with for so long...

Hehe, sorry for not being able to speak so specifically on this, I haven't studied much on this... but isn't diversity a good thing? Adaptability?
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2427388 - 03/13/04 02:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

sure, diversity in the genetic pool is a good thing!

I was really afraid I might come off as some kind of nazi in this thread.  Please dont think that was my intent.  I am well aware of the downfalls of inbreeding and redundant genetics (I see a lot of it here in Texas :lol: )

My main concern is that our society encourages the wrong people to breed. 

I was told that the Rothchilds were very interested in eugenics going as far back as World War I.  I also think that the republicans employ eugenics in their quest for control over the American democracy. 

Republicans are all about "family values".  There are people here that sit outside of abortion clinics and verbally assault those trying to get an abortion.  Then there is the Republican "child tax credit" bs (which goes against classic republican principles). 

My theory is this:  Families are more easily manipulated than individuals.  A man with a family has a burden on his shoulders which the republicans can use to politcally manipulate him. 

"Won't someone think of the children?"

Republicans want people to have kids.  That way, more people will vote republican since they cater to families.  These values are then instilled in the next generation which goes on to start the whole cycle over again. 

How do you control a republic?  cater to the people that breed.  Thats why democrats lose elections.  Their constituency is a bunch of gays and isolated intellectuals that dont tend to have children. 

I think these vandals lyrics sum it up perfectly:

Marry Me Lyrics

Young girl says to her mom,
"How did you know that father was the one?"
Then mom just rolls her eyes
She says, "You'll find that special guy"
but to herself she cannot lie
She says, "I'm praying for the day I die
and they bury me"

Then boy become a man
He finds that special one who understands
He knows 'twas meant to be
her faults he cannot see &
now he's down on bended knee
I pledge my love eternally,
will you marry me?

Do you take this woman?
I don't!
Do you take this man?
I don't!
For the rest of your awful life
she is your lawful wedded wife

Do you take this woman?
I don't!
Do you take this man?
I don't!
Eternal agony in holy matrimony

The two now joined as one
and from this holy union comes a son
and the cycle begins again,
another fool is on his knee
Where is my alimony?
Hang yourself from the family tree,
Say marry me

Menopause, mid-life crisis,
moments for the rest of your life
'Til death do you part,
'til the kids leave home she is your wife
(June?)

Just look at your parents strife
Imagine that for the rest of your life
Do you take this women?
Indubitably I don't


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2427447 - 03/13/04 02:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

put the words 'Eugenics' and 'Rothschild' into a search engine and you get some interesting shit. Like this:

Eugenics and the Rothschild-Rockefeller Apparatus
Thinking Themselves to Hell
Entirely aside from matters of race is the concern that, on average, less intelligent people are more fertile than more intelligent people in modern industrialized society. Compatibility with techno-industrial civilization is predicated to a large degree on intelligence. Considering the importance of intelligence in the processes of innovation, high intelligence is desirable by almost any standard.

Income Inequality and IQ, by Charles Murray (1998), published by The AEI Press (the American Enterprise Institute), rigorously documents a robust and dramatic correlation between inherited cognitive capacity and individual economic achievement.

from ABC News, 2000-Mar-22, by Valerie Parker:

Breeding Better Citizens
In 1934, Adolf Hitler's chilling quest for superior humans was becoming a reality.

He had secured passage of a new law in Germany that authorized the sterilization of ``feebleminded'' men and women, and within months the Nazis had operated on thousands of people.

Although Hitler's philosophy and practices would eventually be repudiated globally, it may be a surprise to many that at the same time, people were being sterilized for similar reasons in the United States.


The Eugenics Movement
It was all part of a movement called eugenics that took a scientific approach to creating a genetically superior race. The idea was that by sterilizing people considered ``mental defectives,'' societal problems, such as poverty and crime, would be reduced.

Eugenics became a popular concept, and at its height, it infused many areas of American culture. There were magazines such as Eugenics Quarterly, and many state fairs featured contests searching for ``Fitter Families'' and ``Better Babies.'' The topic even became the central theme of some movies.

With the support of many prominent Americans, the movement gained such momentum that 35 states had laws on forced sterilization. The idea was even endorsed by the Supreme Court in the 1927 Buck vs. Bell decision, in which Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes declared that ``three generations of imbeciles are enough.''

As eugenics swept across the country, an estimated 60,000 to 100,000 people were sterilized. Many of these people did not have any mental illness.

One Man's Tragic Secret
One man who has carried this dark secret with him was Fred Aslin. When Aslin was a boy in 1936, his father died, leaving his mother to bring up nine children. For unknown reasons, Michigan state representatives deemed her unable to care for her children, and they were taken to a state mental institution and left there.

When Aslin was first admitted, doctors' reports labeled him ``a feebleminded moron,'' but during his years at the institution, he received glowing reports from his teachers. Nevertheless, the ``feebleminded'' label stuck, and when Aslin turned 18 he was told that he would be sterilized.

``I [didn't] want anybody cutting on me - and they knew I wasn't crazy - they knew I wasn't retarded,'' says Aslin. Although he protested, a court order supported the surgery, and he was sterilized.

Checking courthouse records, 20/20 producers were not able to find Aslin's original documents, but they did come across hundreds of files on sterilizations that were authorized for a wide range of reasons.

Families Confront Past
Producers also researched records in Indiana and discovered that state even had a Committee on Mental Defectives, which was partially funded by the state Legislature. This committee culled information from data submitted by doctors, teachers and government officials. College-educated surveyors would also go to individual homes throughout the state and write reports on possible mentally defective families of Indiana.

In the committee's 1918 report to the governor, it defined ``mental defective'' as including the insane, epileptics and the ``feebleminded.'' It claimed that mental defects were ``transmitted from parent to offspring.'' It also classified three grades of ``feeblemindedness'': idiot, imbecile and moron.

While these reports were thought to be thorough, modern experts have said they were heavily tainted by the prejudices of the researchers who wrote them.

Many of the people described in these reports were spared sterilization as the Committee of Mental Defectives ran out of funding. The organization's research, however, was kept intact. 20/20 found many descendants of some people mentioned in the Indiana reports, and many families were shocked to discover what was written about their relatives.

The eugenics movement now seems very un-American, but it is indeed part of the nation's past. And even though its proponents believed they were ``fostering a public good,'' scientists and historians affiliated with the DNA Learning Center of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory feel differently.

Concerned by the impact of eugenics on people like Fred Aslin, they believe ``the coercive tactics of eugenics - race separation, marriage restriction, immigration restriction, and sterilization - fly in the face of current ideals for a compassionate, pluralistic society.''

source: http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/racism.html#eugenics


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2427455 - 03/13/04 03:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I dont think that the Rothschilds gave up on eugenics. they're just using a different approach now. more subtle, less intrusive.

Instead of trying to improve people, now they are trying to breed conformity and controlability.

BTW Eugenics was originally concieved by Galton who, interestingly enough, was Charles Darwin's cousin.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2427539 - 03/13/04 03:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yes but how do you breed conformity? it is one thing to get height x, hair y etc, avoid certain diseases, but it is quite another to breed thought patterns... it seems to me like the degree to which you conform to societys standards is based upon personal experience.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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