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InvisibleEgo Death
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The BreakDown of Society
    #1808391 - 08/13/03 06:26 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I would firstly like to state I am not trying to scare anyone with prophecies of the end of the world.

Our society is a finely tuned system.  We rely on money to trade and oil keeps the economy alive.  So what happens if we run out of fossil fuels.  Energy is no longer being made, fuel does not exist, food cannot be transported, money no longer exists and society enters a state of anarchy. :oogle:

The fossil fuels are the nearest problem I can see that will cause the breakdown, all though, there are many other possibilities:

A super virus or genetically modified disease, for instance.
A transport gridlock (like the petrol strike).
The revelation of the existance of extra-terrestrials.
A Scientific discovery of free energy.

In our life times we are facing the serious possibility of the breakdown of society.  I am not saying it will happen.  I am not saying if it does then we will not find a way out.

The Stand - Is a great film, which uses the super virus theory (like 28 days later but much better) and shows the complete breakdown from society to anarchy, it is an amazing concept.  One that may be worryingly close. 


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OfflinePDU
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Ego Death]
    #1808395 - 08/13/03 06:34 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

If we run out of fossil fuel's, i see no reason (aside from the united state's of america) that hemp cant take over :P

but seriously, I see humanity ending completely (at least on earth) within 350 years, 275 is more realistic actually, If we run out of fossil fuel's it's no big deal, society will easily find many way's to adapt and capitalize. I mean, its not like *poof* there's going to be no more oil left, we have knowledge of what there is for reserve's and more is found fairly often....We will know when they are depleated years in advance in order to prepare for the switch, this might cause a depression, but i dont think anarchy.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: PDU]
    #1808407 - 08/13/03 06:52 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

When you say the switch I assume you mean to wave, solar or other free energy sources. The major problem for me is the wealth created by the oil for the USA. If energy became free why would we need money? Then if we didn't need money people would not be able to buy food, they wouldn't work and society would be anarchy.

The USA relies heavily on the oil industry the question is, how much do they rely on it? What would the effects of free energy have on our society?

Why do you see humanty ending completely? Is this because we will destroy ouselves (nukes etc) or due to some environmental disaster (pole shift, asteroid collision e.t.c

Also, don't forget we are on the brink of some serious sea level rising this could also have some crazy effects in the years to come!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Ego Death]
    #1808429 - 08/13/03 07:16 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Energy won't become free; the oil barons will become the Sun Barons... When I first arrived in Norway, we were driving from one side in Bergen, through the city and out to the island we live on, and they were road constructing... a lot of big pipes were on the side of the road.

It turns out they are going to be carrying hot water.. the government here is starting to experiment with geothermal heating, they'll have a main that people can connect to and warm their house, just like people connect to gas now... They also have been collecting energy off of some of the waterfalls in the mountains, that pour into the fjords. Not all countries are ran by energy tycoons...
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
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Like being here
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OfflinePDU
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1808434 - 08/13/03 07:32 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think fireworks said it great - Not all countries are ran by energy tycoons.

Energy wont be free, under any circumstance's....Solar, or wind, or water or whatever....Its going to have to be processed and sold just like oil...no?

By the way, i see the end of humanity simply because...If you look at the past one hundred and fifty year's humans have corrupted an entire planet and are on the brink of corruping the rest of the galaxy with our waste. The problem's that are caused are already being touted as irreversible, and we are only doing worse and worse all the time...

So, double the time that its taken already, and add in the fact that we have a seeming infinate amount of destructive processes happening more and more....as greed gets stronger and stronger, the worse it get's. I dont see how this planet stands a chance.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: PDU]
    #1808438 - 08/13/03 07:36 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think that we will learn to deal with our wastes more effectively, etc. Rought times ahead, no one knows for sure how we'll come out of them (hello 4th density!).
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePDU
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1808448 - 08/13/03 07:46 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

overpopulation and lack or resource's are also serious concern's, but i suppose that beside the point.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: PDU]
    #1808486 - 08/13/03 08:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The pollution created by humans comes mostly from ignorance, not greed. It wasn't until recently we realized that human activities can actually harm the environment. This was ignored before, even in obvious cases like when forests were cut down and animal species were hunted to extinction.

40 years ago there were no catalytic converters on cars. There were no laws prohibiting fluorocarbon emissions. There were no laws against dumping heavy metals in the environment. There was no moratorium on whale hunting. There was no nuclear test ban treaty. And the list can be made much longer. The point is that our culture is no longer as ignorant about environmental damage as all humans before us have been, and for the past 40 years we have started doing something about it.

We still haven't solved the problem, but that's not because greed is getting stronger faster than our techniques to manage pollution. It's rather because the problem is very large and very complicated, and we haven't fully understood everything we need to know in order to solve it completely.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1808509 - 08/13/03 08:51 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

But greed pushes people to ignore these thing's. Yes, we are more aware than we were in the past, but were doing exponentially more damage than in the past too. More awareness, yet still more destruction doesnt exactly cross one another off.

Anyways...i wasnt intending on jacking this thread, and moving it onto my opinion of the end of humanity...


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: PDU]
    #1808618 - 08/13/03 10:25 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

OK, to return to the topic then, I have one more suggestion to add to danoEoboy's list:

- The creation of superior machine intelligence that decides to take control of the world.

Maybe we won't even notice when it happens, because we'll be so dependent on intelligent machines long before they take over. But afterwards, human society will have a very different role in the scheme of things.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1808732 - 08/13/03 11:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds like an Episode of Dilbert where computer's are running the world..

All in all, i would have to say lost oil reserve's, free energy, and anarchy seem's like it could make a great movie plot, but i dont see the reality of it, Not in North America....

I think there are many other possibilities which could break down the social system as we know it, but depleted oil isnt one of them, and I dont think the government would allow any of the other's to actually happen, unless some giant revolution conspiracy were to take place, and well...homeland security just wont allow that!


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OfflineMurex
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: PDU]
    #1809728 - 08/13/03 04:17 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)


I agree with PDU- it won't happen that way. Technology advances just as much as the world population it seems. There will be a breaking point, yes- but by then we will either be all dead, or inhabating other planets.


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Murex]
    #1810710 - 08/13/03 07:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Good stuff guys!

You've changed my view. I spose I am not quite so pesimistic about it happening in my lifetime now.

Ok, PDU we have corrupted the planet but we will have to change our policies pretty soon and like Rhizoid said we are only just realising!


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Offlinelateralus
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Ego Death]
    #1815339 - 08/14/03 11:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

This is a good read: www.dieoff.org

This man believes that with the exponential use of energy we will be out of oil before 2025(in our lifetime). Hes studied 'peak oil' for 10 years and if he and others are correct, we will be in a situation like 'the stand' (its a stephen king book btw) in our lifetimes, not with a virus, but with a breakdown of societies from energy depletion... mainly oil.

His idea is that after whats been dubbed 'peak oil' (since like 1940 I believe) will be between the years 2010 and 2025 and once it hits, itll be a straight shot downhill from there. The end of civilisation as we know it in our own lifetime. Maybe not the end of the world, but governments and societies as we know them for sure.


Edited by lateralus (08/14/03 11:47 PM)


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: lateralus]
    #1815893 - 08/15/03 03:58 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

His idea is that after whats been dubbed 'peak oil' (since like 1940 I believe) will be between the years 2010 and 2025 and once it hits, itll be a straight shot downhill from there.



The only thing that will happen is that nuclear energy will suddenly be considered attractive again. And some new type of airplane fuel will have to be invented. Preferrably an unleaded fuel, that would be an improvement.


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Offlinepsylicon
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: lateralus]
    #1816495 - 08/15/03 11:26 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Free energy's not nearly as far away as you might think.
http://www.focusfusion.org/
Although I don't know plasma physics in detail, I do know that Eric Lerner is a very competent, albeit radical, scientist. His organization plans to release on the website the entirety of their research and plans should/when they create a working prototype reactor.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1816783 - 08/15/03 01:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

If there were grounds for using the Tesla Coil and managing it... if it worked in its ideal state... I dont see why, without the advancement of technology, that we wouldnt be able to find some way to have "free energy". If it got to that point, it would become so easy that after time, the production of "free" energy whether it was controlled or not would become Free. Think about the return rates on that? They could not make a monopoly. But if and by the time that were to be possible... people like us will be able to run for president. If you are going to say by 2025. We could reverse policies, have a world war, have a civil war, blow up half the planet by then. I think thats why its important for people to realize how much power they themselves have, so that they may make the right decisions. (if John Doe thinks he would have a great impact on goverment law making, he might be able to start a small bud of "revolution"). That may sound "idealistic", but how else has anyone change anything since we new ourselves to have "Civilization"? Maybe our own want for a better world will cause its destruction... or the shere fact that our world is so diverse... it will in one way or another... jam, gridlock... fry. I think a good thread to look at here is the "higher goals" thread. I seriously dont know... its been that way always with life... you never know whats around the corner. I think the best thing we can do... is do the best for ourselves... And do what we can to spread our knowledge.

Everyone has grrreeaaatt ideas, its good to know that there are other people out there that care about the world, and express it. It helps people like me know that others care! I hope thats mutual for everyone who feels the same way.


The problem is diverse, i think Rhizoid. Its a combination of so many factors no one has even been able to get a grip on it. YOu know why we have flouride in our drinking water? Cause its waste from some type of production that produce flouride in its synthesis. Flouride is not good for you, yet its still in all our drinking water.

The tragedy of our innovation is the inability for us to grasp the outcome of such creations. Take the atom bomb...The industrial revolution... We have all these "problems" piling on top of us. Yet our production is still full speed ahead. I wonder if this makes people lazy... because of their inability to grasp the problems we face, they only find solice in their shelter. BUt i must say, there is no shelter.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1816818 - 08/15/03 02:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

> This man believes that with the exponential use of energy we will be out of oil before 2025 ... a breakdown of societies from energy depletion...

Necessity is the mother of invention. When the need is great enough a new method will be discovered.


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Offlinefungulus
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: Seuss]
    #1834251 - 08/20/03 05:57 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Pretty intersesting. I'm reminded of my High School poetry teacher who pointed out that as Literature gets more cynical as a society progresses, you're at the end. It starts out Romantic (optomistic) and gets progressively more cynical (nihilistic and redundant). It's like a guage in history.


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OfflineJazzMatazz
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Re: The BreakDown of Society [Re: fungulus]
    #1834548 - 08/20/03 07:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think the Titel "The BreakDown of Society" is wrong. It should be "mankind" if at all. Society is allready at the verge of extinction. Most people only live in a society , cause they draw profit from it. This alone would not be the big problem, if they would think of themselves as part of the society they live in. However more and more people think of themselves as an individual in a society. Thus they dont think about benefitting the society , but themselves.
This leads to things like a lac of social-aid or a way to litargic democracy (as seen in the EU).
This, I think is a greater problem of today. Moral and values are falling apart and everyone is self-centered.
"Wenn jeder an sich denkt, ist an alle gedacht." This translated into english means something like "If everyone thinks of himself, everyone is thought of." Of course this is very generalised , and therefore to be seen as more of a tendancy, than a rule.

Mankind is very sophisticated and highly adaptable to its surroundings. (Or it adapts its surroundings to mankind...) Therefore a loss of natural resources should , generally speaking not be a big problem. However paired with my theses of the Breakdown of society it could well be doomed: I dont think that a lac of water or essential resources is inevitable if all of mankind counter-acts. The problem is, that people in our money-dominated society will definately try to draw profit from shortages or new-monopols.(Example:Western-world is capable of making drinking water, but doesnt share it evenly, or at a high price) These could well lead to wars, and finally to extinction.

Quote:

FROM ZERO7A1:
The tragedy of our innovation is the inability for us to grasp the outcome of such creations. Take the atom bomb...The industrial revolution... We have all these "problems" piling on top of us. Yet our production is still full speed ahead. I wonder if this makes people lazy... because of their inability to grasp the problems we face, they only find solice in their shelter. BUt i must say, there is no shelter.



I contradict that. these are not problems , but just steps of evolution. Think of all the lovely things they have given you. The fusion of atoms was not invented for maing atom bombs. Its just came up with science , and was seen as a great way to free a lot of energy. The Industrial Revolution was not done, cause society longed for Child-labour or Pollution. Think of TV, Phones, Internet, Information Technology, Cars, Oven-pizza, flavoured condoms, Dolby sourround sound, the shoes you?re wearing, your partner?s parfume etc... all things which you don?t want to miss, and which have been made possible by evolution! [Dramatic pause]
The problem is, that man is ying AND yang and so Gunpowder can make Fireworks and Weapons. See what I mean?
Most of our inventions had good intentions,but gotta mention:
some people use them against human-rights conventions.



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Perception is limited to consciousness.Expand it and unfold other realities.


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