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Eugenics
    #4681320 -

What are your thoughts on eugenics? Good? Bad? Keep it limited? Enact policy upon entire world? What traits to breed for? What to eliminate?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo] * 1
    #4681358 -

Eugenics occurs naturally. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Eugenics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4681369 -

fireworks_god said:
Eugenics occurs naturally. :grin:


My thoughts exactly.  Natural selection will occur on its own without us meddling with it.


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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4681374 -

It is easy to observe many sharply delineated racial distinctions in groups around the world: gorgeous somalis, divine thais, husky whites, long legged watussis; and imagine racial cleansing back 1000 years or so to impose the standard in the groups.

Imagine that what deviated from a local idea of beauty was demoralized deported or destroyed, and what corresponded to acceptible was intensely inbred - mostly in the local king's bed if he could get it up enough.

this surely happened. back then, the scope of it was narrow, and the eventual impact is now lessened due to healthy crossbreeding between groups. We should not start eugenics again - the scope of such actions now would be global, and much more horrible, and much more final.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eugenics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4681450 -

redgreenvines said:
We should not start eugenics again - the scope of such actions now would be global, and much more horrible, and much more final.


We never stopped eugenics. Are you selective of who you breed with, and do you control that? :smirk:

You might not be thinking "Oh yeah, this section of her DNA will really mesh well with this section of mine", but the effect is the same. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Eugenics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4681461 -

any cute thing that will spend the right kind of time in bed with you is not eugenics.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4681463 -

Eugenic is worse shit.
You say, nature takes care of eugenics itself, but what is, if we take the rules of nature out (modern medicine) ?
We have moved into a dilemma.
Man is not ready for taking over natures role over death and live. SO for me, the singlest decision over someones live or death should be made by the individuum itself. But even him, does not know everything to be sure about his decision.

Even the question "What is in relation, to keep someones life ?" brings us deeper into that dilemma.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Eugenics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4682692 -

Hopefully, Eugenics will be replaced by gene therapy.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4682819 -

it should be practiced on an individual level.

if you do not like the genes that you have and feel that you would rather not give a new life those genes when instead you could adopt a life and give it a better chance.... then do that.

but genetic engineering? Nazi-experiments? No... just fuck and see what comes out 9 months later... but don't do it if you have diseases that you don't want to pass on.

For example I'm not sure if I'd want to reproduce because i have allergies and bad vision, and I say why the hell not fill society up with healthier people? I don't believe in the whole "potential" life thing... I think "souls" if you will just kind of latch onto newly forming children at random, so it's not like you're murdering someone by not having a child....

but then again.... what if someone's karma would only allow them to be your child, assuming they would be born defunct and lets say mentally handicapped... and if you decided not to have a child they would have to be an animal? Hmm... who knows, they could just wait longer for a suitable human vessle perhaps.

anyway................. my philosophies on eugenics stem from a kind of Buddhist approach to life, meaning it doesn't matter if you reproduce or not, it won't affect things in the long run [since everyone else will reproduce any way], so it's your choice as to whether you think your genes should carry or on dwindle down.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4683422 -

Eugenics is the future of humanity. It can seen as good or bad by anyone, but as a tool it is invaluable.

Of course, I wouldn't espouse the old, failed methods of improving hereditary traits through selective breeding. Rather, we should heavily invest in genetic engineering to improve tomorrow's breed of humans.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Ravus]
    #4683434 -

Quote:
we should heavily invest in genetic engineering to improve tomorrow's breed of humans


I've got a dollar. :smile:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Ravus]
    #4683446 -

What traits would you like to see in more people? Which would you like to see less of?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4683468 -

I don't think it's so much about what you'd like to see in more people as how much smarter or creative or blonder will a little DNA tweaking make your newborn baby.

This is going to start happening soon. It already does in the sense that tests for serious genetic defects already exist and are being used to justify abortions.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4683484 -

We should genetically engineer out any genetically-induced diseases or flaws, such as Huntington's disease or baldness, as well as making sure no Down syndrome or other damaged sperm ever infect an egg. We should increase the potential for high intelligences and physical capacities among humans, along with genetically engineering it so that we can effectively eliminate the need for glasses, contacts or laser-surgery by giving people as perfect eyesight as we can offer. If possible, we should heighten all the senses.

Of course, we may currently lack the technology to efficiently do some of these, but humanity is advancing fast, and we can afford the next generation much better bodies, minds and senses than we currently could hope for without genetic engineering. After we take these simple measures, we can work on creating superhuman immune system, brain and body capacities.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Ravus]
    #4683493 -

Don't forget perfect tits. No more nasty silicone.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Icelander]
    #4683522 -

I guess you could say that's part of physical capacities? :wink:

They do have a purpose after all.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Ravus]
    #4683546 -

I have a whole list of requests that will perfect the hairless ape. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4683753 -

My genetics professor was talking about eugenics today in class. I don't have a strong opinion about it because it's one of those issues with strong arguments on both sides. Too many years on the debate club severely affected my side taking ability.  :grin: But some good has come from it I think. He mentioned in particular the decreased occurrence of Tay Sachs disease in the Eastern European Jewish population.

Edited by Jaimie (09/19/05 08:19 PM)

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4683920 -

personally, without much deep thought or knowledge, i think we should use eugenics to engineer healthier, higher functioning humans who live longer etc... as long as it was safe and properly researched. seriously.
transhumanism. concious evolution...  :thumbup:


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4684656 -

Ravus said:
We should genetically engineer out any genetically-induced diseases or flaws, such as Huntington's disease or baldness, as well as making sure no Down syndrome or other damaged sperm ever infect an egg. We should increase the potential for high intelligences and physical capacities among humans, along with genetically engineering it so that we can effectively eliminate the need for glasses, contacts or laser-surgery by giving people as perfect eyesight as we can offer. If possible, we should heighten all the senses.


Moonshoe said:
personally, without much deep thought or knowledge, i think we should use eugenics to engineer healthier, higher functioning humans who live longer etc... as long as it was safe and properly researched. seriously.
transhumanism. concious evolution...  :thumbup:


:thumbup:

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Ravus]
    #4686275 -

Who will be the first, to kill the 'errors' coming out, and who is the judge about that ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Eugenics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4686966 -

The judge is whoever has the power to judge, whether it be priests, leaders or scientists. What do the lives of the weak matter compared to the decisions of the powerful?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4686989 -

At first I would consider the errors coming out to be nothing more than an experiment gone wrong. No reason not to abort the experiment. Unless of course gene therapy was used to correct the errors.

I wonder if the rate of suicide will go up among the genetically inferior/unmodified.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Eugenics [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4713878 -

Quote:
What are your thoughts on eugenics? Good? Bad? Keep it limited? Enact policy upon entire world? What traits to breed for? What to eliminate?



psuedo science at best. From the start it was created by Europeans, and it has a pre-determined conclusion, where most researchers deemed such things as the size of the skull, to the size of the brain, to the amount of intelligence that person could have.

after years of doctored tests, and fucking bumbling techniques, I hope that we can all forget this waste of time, and mostly racist / sexist type of "science."

I suggest you read some more about the actual facts of Eugenics, AFTER WWI.

fucking hogwash


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: kotik]
    #4714163 -

hmm. i didnt even take the time to find out what "eugenics" meant. if it means some kind of racial cleansing program, count me the fuck out. I just assumed it means like genetic research and gene surgery...


meh.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714189 -

No, you're right. Eugenics is not genocide, it's not racial cleansing, nor is it any of the other bullshit people throw at it. These things have co-existed at the same time, but it was because of the lunacy of the leaders and population at the time; eugenics is just a tool, and one that is potentially very beneficial to humanity.

Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through social intervention. The goals have variously been to create more intelligent people, save society resources, lessen human suffering and reduce health problems. Proposed means of achieving these goals most commonly include birth control, selective breeding, and genetic engineering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

In the modern age, genetic engineering is obviously the only viable way; selective breeding and birth control are failures, as genetics are so unpredictable from natural ways, not to mention the intrusion upon people's rights. Eugenics should be a voluntary way to improve the human race, not a forced one, and those who want to reproduce naturally without trying to improve the genetics on their children should be allowed to in my opinion.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Ravus]
    #4714264 -

the very foundation of which eugenics was created and based upon was flawed with pre-determined conclusions instead of scientific theories.

there is no such thing as a smart gene, just as there is no such thing as a beauty gene.

just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, intelligence is determined by the tester.. and if the subject is of a different culture, of course they will seem uneducated when responding to questions.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: kotik]
    #4714279 -

kotik said:
there is no such thing as a smart gene, just as there is no such thing as a beauty gene.


Those are some hefty claims there. Got any sources to back them up?

Too bad Robert Graham died and we probably won't ever get to really study the children of his work.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4714311 -

Quote:
Those are some hefty claims there. Got any sources to back them up?


i must restate, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just as the potential for intelligence is only hindered by environmental and biological defects, but there is not a single gene that can be attributed to either.

Edit: What source could be credible on the definition of beauty or the prime example of intelligence?


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

Edited by kotik (09/26/05 01:16 PM)

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Ravus]
    #4714377 -

In my eyes, as long as man does not know enough about the relation from genes with live, it is an extreme risky game to play, especially, because it is hard to transfer scientific experimental results from other beings to humans...
So we can't forsee yet, what results on our entire population these experiments will have in the long-shot...

(we can't forsee it for plants yet either)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Eugenics [Re: kotik]
    #4714611 -

I didn't ask for a credible source on the definition of beauty. I asked for your source(like this) on which you make the claim that there is no beauty or intelligence gene.
Or is it that you don't wish to believe there are such genes?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4714936 -

i can do little else but again suggest reading Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. Short of retyping his entire book in this forum, there would be no other way to convey the information and misinformation put forth since the early 1800s (and probably earlier).

"I asked for your source on which you make the claim that there is no beauty or intelligence gene."

well then i will retract the statement if it keeps you up at night without a source. it's rather a conclusion that i have come across shared by many other people, some of which are much more qualified to explain it than myself...

but if that link you posted is really the type of source you would like, I cannot help you, for I don't have a very good ability to read bare facts such as those and come to any kind of conclusion. It was merely a fact sheet, and fact sheets alone neither prove nor disprove anything.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: kotik]
    #4715007 -

I see in your other post, you have already read the book. (did you read the revised 1996 edition? I have not.. I have the original 1981 hardcover edition).

regarding Neo-Lysenkoism, IQ, and the Press, I believe I have read that, but in different context.. perhaps a different author, but it rings to the same tune.

They both point out innacuracies in Gould's statements, but none of which change anything that he came up with. He basically debunked the greater part of 100 years of research into the matter, only to discover it was founded upon great prejudice and irregular, inconsistent methods.

Another fine book that is somewhat related to the subject that you may find interesting is Guns, Germs, and Steel.. which has more of the historical aspect to it..

or The Bell Curve Wars: Race, Intelligence, and the Future of America which goes on more about the cultural aspect of intelligence.. i believe it was written by Steve Frasier.

Measured Lies : The Bell Curve Examined by Joe Kincole (last name is probably misspelled)

I just recently finished Mismeasure for the 2nd time, so it is very fresh in memory, and I plan to buy another book called "Intelligence, Genes, and Success: Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve" that is supposed to be really good (although amazon reviews claim it is biased).


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: kotik]
    #4715076 -

Thanks for the suggestions. I will check into them.

The problem I have with Mismeasure(aside from the methods used to draw the conclusions) was that it dealt with debunking the first wave of eugenics study more than it dealt with eugenics itself. I agree that eugenics could have been(probably was) started out of racism, but I do not care about that aspect of it.

100 years ago we did not have anywher near the information we have now on DNA and different genes. I believe that if we apply todays knowledge to yesterdays science we can come up with some amazing results.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Eugenics [Re: daimyo]
    #4715133 -

I must admit I share your same curiosity, however I am still interested in how and why it started, rather than its application in current times.

Keep me up to date on anything you find interesting!


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: kotik]
    #20024243 -

kotik said:
I must admit I share your same curiosity, however I am still interested in how and why it started, rather than its application in current times.

Keep me up to date on anything you find interesting!


Cracked article

Albeit a humour site I found this interesting nontheless. Certainly interested in LRP5 mutation now.

Evolution is so interesting. Yay Eugenics.

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Re: Eugenics [Re: Beanhead]
    #20024306 -

All people named 'Eugene' should be put down. :sadyes:


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Re: Eugenics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20028440 -

gene therapy to promote
more cuteness
less lameness
more artness
less dumbness


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eugenics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20028446 -

Cuter than this?



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Re: Eugenics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20028554 -

below is cute
above is vewwy bunny


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eugenics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20028769 -

redgreenvines said:
below is cute
above is vewwy bunny


rabbits and parrots
only two animals that can see directly behind
without turning
their heads
supposedly


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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