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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: ]
    #2428612 -

nikolai_ said:
yes but how do you breed conformity? it is one thing to get height x, hair y etc, avoid certain diseases, but it is quite another to breed thought patterns... it seems to me like the degree to which you conform to societys standards is based upon personal experience.


Good point. Nature vs Nurture debate...


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: ]
    #2428631 -

Quote:
yes but how do you breed conformity?


Reward those who conform by making it easier for them to survive and reproduce.

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2428754 -

Marriage (monogamy): It screws with the natural reproductive process

Monogamy (if adhered to) also greatly limits the spread of fatal sexually-transmitted sexual diseases. One tends to live longer if one hasn't contracted such a disease. Living longer is generally considered to be an advantage.

The printing press: It gave us a way to store information other than genetics. So instead of new people having to figure everything out on their own, they can now learn from the experiences of others.

People learned from others before the printing press was invented -- even before writing was invented.

griculture: changed the evolutionary survival influence from hunting and gatering to farming and cooperation

Which then allowed many more individuals of the species to flourish in the same amount of space.

he concept of money and trading: displaced the burden of survival from the individual to the group

Incorrect. Humans from the beginning were social animals. They grouped together long before currency and trading existed.

fashion: influences the sexual selection process

Really? To a miniscule degree in affluent societies, perhaps.

pinky


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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2428812 -

Quote:
griculture: changed the evolutionary survival influence from hunting and gatering to farming and cooperation

Which then allowed many more individuals of the species to flourish in the same amount of space.



Thus setting in motion what would eventually lead to the overpopulation problem we have today.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: silversoul7]
    #2428823 -

What population problem?

The Earth's population of humans is higher than it has ever been. From an evolutionary standpoint, that is a success story.

pinky


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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2428842 -

pinksharkmark said:
What population problem?

The Earth's population of humans is higher than it has ever been. From an evolutionary standpoint, that is a success story.


No, not really. Evolutionary success does not rely on numbers, but rather on our ability to survive sustainably in our environment, and adapt to any changes that might come about. In nature there is such a thing as overpopulation. We are heading closer and closer to the point where our environment cannot sustain us, and then we can expect to see a sharp drop in our population due to hunger, disease, etc.

However, I will concede that I was being a bit rash in blaming agriculture for our overpopulation problem. Industrialization probably deserves more blame for that.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: silversoul7]
    #2428930 -

silversoul7 writes:

In nature there is such a thing as overpopulation. We are heading closer and closer to the point where our environment cannot sustain us, and then we can expect to see a sharp drop in our population due to hunger, disease, etc.

Sez you. That is pure (and almost certainly erroneous) conjecture.

However, assuming for the sake of argument your assertion is true, that doesn't alter the fact that there are more human genes in existence at this moment than at any time in the past. The saturation point has not yet been reached. It may be reached one day with none of the calamities you mention coming to pass.

pinky


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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2429121 -

I'm not really talking about the effect society has on the quality of each individual's life, I'm talking about the effect society has on human genetics. Would you say it is an overall positive influence o r an overall negative influence?

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2429371 -

Positive, of course.

This is self-evident -- humans on their own are not as good at survival as humans in a group. This is readily observable in the fact that the earth today holds over six billion of us. There is no possible way six billion humans could exist without co-operating with one another -- i.e. forming societies.

pinky


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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2429511 -

True or False?:

1. Certain resources are finite.

2. Resources which are not necessarily finite need a certain amount of time to grow back.

3. The faster our population grows, the faster resources are consumed.

4. If we consume resources faster than they can grow back, we are likely to encounter a shortage of that resource.

5. If we have a shortage of resources necessary for our survival, many will perish.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: silversoul7]
    #2429583 -

This is getting further and further off topic, but I'll play if you will.

1. Certain resources are finite.

True

2. Resources which are not necessarily finite need a certain amount of time to grow back.

True

3. The faster our population grows, the faster resources are consumed.

Some resources? True. Others? Untrue. Consumption of whale oil is at pretty much an all time low, as just one example.

4. If we consume resources faster than they can grow back, we are likely to encounter a shortage of that resource.

True

5. If we have a shortage of resources necessary for our survival, many will perish.

A sudden shortage? Possibly true. Yet note that the sudden and unanticipated-by-virtually-everyone shortage of cod off the Grand Banks resulted in no mass deaths.

A shortage we can see coming in time to switch to something else? False.

Was that chain of questions supposed to support your contention that the calamities you mention are a certainty?

More to the point, do those questions have anything to do with humanity's tendency to form societies? I thought the question under discussion was whether or not human society qua society affects human evolution.

pinky


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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2429679 -

Quote:
A shortage we can see coming in time to switch to something else? False.


Good point, which is why we must become more aware of the environmental problems facing us and do something to slow them down if we are to prevent such mass deaths.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2430627 -

pinksharkmark said:
A sudden shortage? Possibly true. Yet note that the sudden and unanticipated-by-virtually-everyone shortage of cod off the Grand Banks resulted in no mass deaths. 


I believe the difference here is that oil basically built the entire structure that we have today and is soley responsible for the creation and the survival of the majority of this Earth's population at this moment.

No mass deaths were experienced when there was a shortage of cod off of the Grand Banks because cod was apparently not absolutely necessary for the survival of those people.

Oil goes far, far beyond fuel. Everything that is manufactured today directly or indirectly depends on oil. If it wasn't actually made in some part from oil, more than likely the machines responsible relied on it.

You have to understand that oil is the blood of the structure on this Earth at the moment. Remember agriculture, which was being discussed up there? Well, oil-based agriculture seriously increased the population of Earth by 5 billion.

Health care is dependant on it... all forms of transportation... anything manufactured these days, pretty much...

Humans can't survive for very long if they have very little to no blood. Of course, blood in us is in a closed system and we don't have to worry about it except for not getting massive wounds that will drain it....

Well, this massive structure that billions of people are alive soley because of that structure survives on oil and oil has to come from somewhere.

And the issue isn't even running out of oil, it is of running out of inexpensive oil.

Which apparently is right around the culture and there is no way to avoid it. All sorts of problems will result because of it.

Well, no problem for the human species really, except a major setback... but lots of people will be lost because there is no solution that can keep this entire structure running, it is dependant on oil. There is nothing that can do as much as oil.

But ja, our entire society and structure is going to hit a wall and the only way to get it is to change the structure......

I don't have time at the moment, Doctor J, but I will be back later and address the main topic... For the oil thing, check out this  link.
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2430680 -

DoctorJ said:
My main concern is that our society encourages the wrong people to breed. 

I was told that the Rothchilds were very interested in eugenics going as far back as World War I.  I also think that the republicans employ eugenics in their quest for control over the American democracy. 

Republicans are all about "family values".  There are people here that sit outside of abortion clinics and verbally assault those trying to get an abortion.  Then there is the Republican "child tax credit" bs (which goes against classic republican principles). 

My theory is this:  Families are more easily manipulated than individuals.  A man with a family has a burden on his shoulders which the republicans can use to politcally manipulate him. 


Ja, I definitely see what you mean here.  :thumbup:

It could definitely be happening. People seeking control of others for their own power are definitely going to be doing it subtly. It makes me think of the cattle drives... slowly moving a large group of cattle as they graze towards the stockyards, hundreds of miles away...  being subtle and patient definitely got 'dem there cowboys a huge payoff, after all.  :grin:

(Side note: The Texas connotation running through this thread is suggesting something... the redundant genetics there, the Republicans and their leader, the cowboys leading the longhorns from Texas to Kansas..... intriguing. :lol:) Oh, by the way, Doctor J, maybe you should start herding cattle and SpecialEd can sell them for you. :grin:

People need to be careful and aware. We tend to let a lot of things fall into the background with routine.... we need to be aware at all times of everything that is around us. Let us not be like the rabbit who sees a carrot and walks right into a trap to get it. :wink:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2430840 -

Inner logic obviously reveals that we are going down a path of laziness and reliance on an artificial lifestyle. This did not take any statistics or scientific expirementation to conclude. I merely watch TV for 5 minutes and receive all the information about the LIES and BULLSHIT that I need. Fuck that. It is inevitable to come crashing down. When that day comes will you be ok?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: psyka]
    #2430996 -

Hehe, I will be okay. :wink:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: psyka]
    #2431269 -

How do you know who's lying?  :confused:


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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2434857 -

Quote:
Positive, of course.

This is self-evident -- humans on their own are not as good at survival as humans in a group. This is readily observable in the fact that the earth today holds over six billion of us. There is no possible way six billion humans could exist without co-operating with one another -- i.e. forming societies.




Possibly you misunderstood the question I was asking.

Human existence is not human genetics. Society may benefit human existence but it may not benefit human genetics.

lets say theres a gene that causes social behavior. At some point this gene was selected by the circumstances of our environment because it benefits our survival and reproductive capabilities.

but was the selection of this gene at the detriment of other genes? Because social genes are selected, antisocial genes might be deselected. But antisocial genes may be inherently related to genes that are conducive to independant thought. Also, since society takes the pressure off the individual, other genes for skills arent as pressed to the grindstone and therefore become weak and dull over many generations.

I'm not talking about the life of the individual, or even of the collective population at any one particular moment in time. I'm talking about the evolution of the human genetic strain over say 100,000 years.

could it be, from this perspective, that society is a crutch which ultimately weakens our genetics?

Is the software fucking up the hardware?

Edited by DoctorJ (03/15/04 12:22 PM)

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2434957 -

DoctorJ - I don't have an answer for you on that one, but I do like to view it as a possibility. Even though our genetics have advanced towards societies routines doesn't neccessarily mean they are weaker then any other genetics of inhabitants of this planet.

All living things work together in a bigger society that eventually leads down to few traits that base our survival. One in our human lives would have to be aggressiveness. If we weren't aggressive to pick up those females we would never mate. Maybe in turn lack of that, the females may become aggressive. Even though all of this already exists. I'm trying to point out that even though we are in a society I don't think it makes a difference in our gene traits. The only other traits I can think of would happen to be getting back to the roots of hardcore survival and living out in the wild with no clothes on only to spend 100,000 years growing fur to keep our backs warm instead of growing the cotton or the hemp to do so. Say teeth designed for chewing instead of the use of a knife and fork. If that's what you mean I kind of like the way we are heading. If you know what I mean. Otherwise we'd still be barbaric creatures.

Meanwhile nature plays it's little game of genetic mutations. Some people get those cancer fighting cells while other end up fighting cancer. Wait till we have the technology to alter our own genes and make it aparent that everyone can eventually own themselves a pair of cancer fighting cells. Science and the future will give us many evolutionary things. What do you think about coming completely artificial with doctors and scientists designing us bodies and brains. I just recently watched Ghost In The Shell so i'm on this sci-fi craze.

In few words... Society is our evolution.

There are two ways to go around it, wait 100,000 years for that advanced liver or go out and create it on your own. Our evolution has giving us the chance to take control of it. Take control.

Life,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Droz]
    #2434980 -

yeah, I'm not saying that society is ultimately bad...

but it may have come too early for humans. Perkaps we could have used a little more time in the oven before we came out to dinner. specificly I'm talking about the brain here, not necessarily physical characteristics like hair and teeth.

also I think there are societies which could benefit evolution, but they would probably not be very fun to live in. It would be a sacrifice of human experience for the benefit of human genetics. That extreme doesnt strike me as any better than the extreme we're in now. I think the key is balance.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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