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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2435004 - 03/15/04 12:58 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

DoctorJ writes:

Possibly you misunderstood the question I was asking.

Human existence is not human genetics. Society may benefit human existence but it may not benefit human genetics.


Without the existence of humans, there are no human genes. Conversely, the more humans there are, the wider the variation of genetic material upon which the process of evolution may operate.

but was the selection of this [social] gene at the detriment of other genes?

Define "detrimental". If human genetic material is replicated, then from the point of view of genes, all is well. Clearly, the "social gene" is not detrimental.

Because social genes are selected, antisocial genes might be deselected. But antisocial genes may be inherently related to genes that are conducive to independant thought.

They may be. That does not necessarily make them detrimental from an evolutionary standpoint.

Also, since society takes the pressure off the individual, other genes for skills arent as pressed to the grindstone and therefore become weak and dull over many generations.

Which skills might those be? Clearly they are not skills required for the continued existence of human genes.

'm not talking about the life of the individual, or even of the collective population at any one particular moment in time. I'm talking about the evolution of the human genetic strain over say 100,000 years.

i guess we'll have to wait 100,000 years to answer that, no?

could it be, from this perspective, that society is a crutch which ultimately weakens our genetics?

More likely the reverse. Without the information which can only be transmitted from one human to the next through the agent of society, it is likely that predators, famine, flood, etc. would have ended the human line millennia ago.

pinky


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2435044 - 03/15/04 01:09 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Which skills might those be? Clearly they are not skills required for the continued existence of human genes.




surely you mean to say: "Clearly they are not skills required for the continued existence of human genes within the situtational parameters of a society."

Society is not a constant. Society could collapse at any minute. Would our genes be able to survive as they were able to before the advent of society? "Overspecialize and you breed in weakness."

The other day I saw an ad on television about the Wal-mart health insurance. This walmart employee was saying how great walmart health insurance is because it paid for his son's surgeries.

Now, this kid had to have open heart surgery at 3 months of age, and a kidney transplant at 7 months of age. Now, this may seem cold-blooded, but I think that kid has shitty genetics. Mother nature fucked up and obviously doesnt intend for him to survive. But society intervenes and helps him anyway. And if it continues to do so, this kid will grow up and lead a somewhat "normal" life. But what if he has kids? And his kids have kids? It becomes a cancer on our genetic strain; a gene pool pollutant.

Quote:

More likely the reverse. Without the information which can only be transmitted from one human to the next through the agent of society, it is likely that predators, famine, flood, etc. would have ended the human line millennia ago.





or maybe the human race would have adapted to these adversities in a different way than storing their treasures here on earth. Maybe, the human race would have become stronger without the crutch of society.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2437080 - 03/15/04 09:30 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

DoctorJ writes:

surely you mean to say: "Clearly they are not skills required for the continued existence of human genes within the situtational parameters of a society."

Since humans have been social beings for pretty much as far back as we are able to determine, I didn't think the qualification was required.

Society is not a constant.

Any given society is not necessarily a constant, no.

Society could collapse at any minute.

Oh, please. Every society everywhere on the planet collapses simultaneously? By what possible set of hypothetical circumstances do you envision every human shunning every other human and living all alone, driving off any other human who approaches too near?

Would our genes be able to survive as they were able to before the advent of society?

You mean the genes that existed in the times before even Homo erectus walked the earth? Sorry, but such genes no longer exist.

Now, this may seem cold-blooded, but I think that kid has shitty genetics.

Yup.

Mother nature fucked up and obviously doesnt intend for him to survive.

Absent the intervention of other humans, yup.

But society intervenes and helps him anyway. And if it continues to do so, this kid will grow up and lead a somewhat "normal" life.

Indeed he will.

But what if he has kids?

Perhaps the genes of the mate he chooses are dominant, and the kids will turn out to be perfectly viable. But even if they don't, they too may be kept alive through technology.

It becomes a cancer on our genetic strain; a gene pool pollutant.

Sickle cell anemia remains incurable to this day. Yet millions carry a genetic predisposition for it. This is clear evidence that potentially fatal genetic flaws are carried from generation to generation without of the assistance of society.

or maybe the human race would have adapted to these adversities in a different way than storing their treasures here on earth.

Like Homo neandertalis (sp?), for example?

Maybe, the human race would have become stronger without the crutch of society.

You started this whole thread. It was about evolution and genetics and society. Define "stronger" in the context of evolution and genetics.

I say society has been beneficial to the production of human genetic material and support my assertion by pointing to the record amount of human genetic material on the planet today. You on the other hand speculate that if there were no such thing as human society, there would be even more human genetic material on hand.

pinky


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OfflineDroz
Love of Life
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Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2437112 - 03/15/04 09:36 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Stronger - The use of medicines that can be easily obtained through say eating the leaves of a plant.

Weak - Having to spend 100 years of time working on medicine that they test on dead rats then throwing it out on the market to fuck up our brains. Throw that damn prozac away damn it.


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Evolution of Time.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2437633 - 03/16/04 12:17 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Its like Frankenstein - we need to pay close attention to what we create, because everything we make will evolve into things we never expected, and cross itself with our other creations in ways we never expected.

Money, for example, started off nice but turned out to be one of the stupidest ideas ever, and its influence over this planet astounds me every morning


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: Phred]
    #2438663 - 03/16/04 09:44 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Since humans have been social beings for pretty much as far back as we are able to determine, I didn't think the qualification was required




there is a difference between social behavior and the formation of a society. 

Quote:

Oh, please. Every society everywhere on the planet collapses simultaneously? By what possible set of hypothetical circumstances do you envision every human shunning every other human and living all alone, driving off any other human who approaches too near?





It might seem hard for you to believe, but we live in different worlds.  Your generation's biggest fear was nuclear.  My generation has to contend with biological weapons, nanotechnology, environmental/earth changes (including the possibility of pole shifts and meteor strikes), plus the overpop and resource shortage factors SS7 mentioned.

what, are you saying it couldn't happen?

Quote:

Like Homo neandertalis (sp?), for example?





neandertalis is a good point.  they are a branch of humanity that went too far in one direction and not enough in the other.  Environmental conditions did not support the course that their evolution was taking.  could be us, too.  Only time will tell.

Quote:

Define "stronger" in the context of evolution and genetics




perhaps the individual would be capable of more.  perhaps our capacity for independant thought and self sufficiency might be greater.  If society didnt come when it did, I mean- if it had come later. 

If there are alien races out there, it would be interesting to study their evolution and how the sequence of accquisition of abilities might effect their development and genetic makeup.  Like what if, for instance, on some other planet, the brains of dominant lifeforms evolved complex mathematical ability before social behavior. 

Quote:

  I say society has been beneficial to the production of human genetic material and support my assertion by pointing to the record amount of human genetic material on the planet today.




Quantity is not necessarily quality my friend.  Ask any mexican schwag weed farmer :lol: 

Quote:

You on the other hand speculate that if there were no such thing as human society, there would be even more human genetic material on hand.





yes, i am speculating and I freely admit that. 

however, I said nothing about the quantity of genetic material.  If you think quantity is all there is to genetics, you have some reading to do.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Evolution and Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2439005 - 03/16/04 11:29 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

DoctorJ writes:

there is a difference between social behavior and the formation of a society.

Indeed there is. However, humans (at least the current model of humans -- Homo sapiens sapiens) have formed societies for as far back as we are able to determine. They have always lived in groups.

Your generation's biggest fear was nuclear.

It was a big one for many, yes. I have more fear of nuclear weapons today than I did during the Cold War, and so do most of the other thinking members of my generation.

My generation has to contend with biological weapons, nanotechnology...

As does mine. I'm still here, you know.

... environmental/earth changes (including the possibility of pole shifts and meteor strikes)...

Environmental changes have been occuring since the day the Earth formed, as have pole shifts and meteor strikes.

...plus the overpop and resource shortage factors SS7 mentioned.

And my generation didn't have these worries? You should read some of the books written by the doomsayers of three decades ago -- Erdman, Ehrlich and others. If nothing else, they're good for a laugh.

what, are you saying it couldn't happen?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Current societies may crumble, as past societies have many many times in our history, but society qua society will remain.

From what I have been able to determine, your beef with human society re the gradual change of the human genotype over time (which is all that evolution is, after all) is that human society allows humans to pass knowledge from one generation to the next.

All I am saying is that humans have always done that. We seem genetically hardwired to do that. In some hypothetical post-apocalyptic world, the remaining humans will continue to do that.

neandertalis is a good point. they are a branch of humanity that went too far in one direction and not enough in the other. Environmental conditions did not support the course that their evolution was taking.

Speculation. For all we know, Homo sapiens sapiens hunted down and killed them all. Perhaps we were able to accomplish this genocide because we were better at running societies than the Neanderthals were -- i.e. evolutionarily advantaged.

perhaps the individual would be capable of more.

More what? From an evolutionary standpoint, if the individual succeeds in replicating its genes, the game has been won. If it succeeds in not just replacing one-for-one, but actually increasing the number of vessels bearing its genes, the game has not just been won, but aced.

perhaps our capacity for independant thought...

All humans think independently. Humans don't think collectively. Each human must (and does) think for herself.

...and self sufficiency might be greater.

It is the collected knowledge of millennia, passed on through human society, that increases the probability of individual human survival (self sufficiency) when that individual becomes separated from the group. No single human could possibly discover on his own in the course of his single lifespan such acquired skills as making fire, knapping flint, planting crops, constructing bows and arrows, curing hides, plaiting plant fiber, treating himself with plant extracts, taming horses, the principles of sanitation... need I continue?

Quantity is not necessarily quality my friend.

From an evolutionary standpoint (and that is what this thread is about) quantity is quality. See my comments re: replicating vessels carrying genetic material.

If you think quantity is all there is to genetics, you have some reading to do.

If you think continuing change is all there is to genetics, you have some reading to do. Is the cockroach not successful? How many cockroaches are there on the planet? How about ants? Yeast? Bacteria? Fungi? Ferns? Algae?

pinky


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